Protee Sim

[ZMax]

ProTee,

Could you clarify the difference between the 2008 Protee and the new Protee 2.0? Hardware and software? Who makes the current hardware? Launch angle add-on?

Thanks,

[ProTee]

Sure,

Let me first give you a little bit of background info.

A long, long, long, very long, long time ago Martin and I were in business together. We developed the ProTee Golf Simulator. A few years ago we got divorced (like we both divorced our beautiful wifes), but in a good way and without the alimony ;-)

Martin and his ex wife started GSA and continued the ProX software development. We stopped further developing the old hardware and the ProX software and developed a second generation of hardware, which is now marketed on the ProTee Golf 2.0 name.

This new hardware range for club tracking, ball tracking and putting are (of course) improved in many ways and are all developed by ProTee and fully owned by ProTee.

We are currently developing a new Launch Camera ADD-ON based on webcam technology which can be added later this year to any ProTee Golf 2.0 simulator free of charge.

A 3rd party developed the new simulation software for us, but unfortunately with a non exclusive golf physics engine. Martin got in contact with our developers and got his own edition based on the same engine. Think of it like the UnReal engine for first person shooters, but released in different formats.

I read in some threads about us running GSA software. We are not running GSA software or GSA courses. This is ProTee software with ProTee Golf golf courses. GSA is just another layer on on the same golf engine.

We also market our Golf Simulator 2.0 software in a stripped edition as PC game (www.proteeplay.com) which can be purchased in stores world wide.

The old type systems are no longer sold by us and are no longer being supported by us. The latest ProX source code we have is version 4.75.1 (Martin is currently on version 6.6.2).

So, the big difference is:

1. The 2008 system is no longer being made by us, sold by or supported by us.
2. The 2.0 system has new hardware, new software and has all the improvements integrated which we learned from the last 10 years of development.

Better, more accurate, more stable (recognizes 99.8% of the shots), more user friendly, no daily bug fixes required, 5 step installation, no difficult settings and adjustements, etc.etc.etc.etc.

Hope this helps!

Just let me know if you have any questions about Golf Simulators in general, The ProTee system, Golf Physics, developments. I would be glad to answer them.

You can find lots of technical info on www.proteegolfsimulators.com and www.protee-united.com. And for our US friends we have www.proteegolfusa.com which points to our US distributor who is also a teaching pro and operates the ProTee simulator 2.0 in an indoor center next to Trugolf and Aboutgolf.

Wow, long story... My next reply's will -hopefully- be a lot shorter

[bubba22]

ProTee welcome. Thank you for the explanation. Your system looks perfect. Addition of the launch is a fantastic idea which really makes me excited.

[ZMax]

1. The 2008 system is no longer being made by us, sold by or supported by us.
2. The 2.0 system has new hardware, new software and has all the improvements integrated which we learned from the last 10 years of development.

Better, more accurate, more stable (recognizes 99.8% of the shots), more user friendly, no daily bug fixes required, 5 step installation, no difficult settings and adjustements, etc.etc.etc.etc.

Thank you very much clearing up a few things.

Can you explain how the new Protee 2.0 is better and more accurate than the old Protee? Aside from the built-in ball sensor and maybe one more reset sensor, the sensor layout appears to be the same as the old Protee.

And does the new Protee sensor pad use two timing/angle sensors that are found in the front row, above and below the tee, like in the old Protee?

Are the sensors themselves closer together? Better components?

[ProTee]

- We have 4 reset sensors on the back iso 3. This allows more driver "swipe" shots to be picked up.
- We have an aditional reset sensor between the frontrow and the backrow.
- We now have 4 timing/angle sensors.
- The ball track part is now fully integrated. It used to be 4.5' away from the ball. This is now 10" allowing us to pick up all ball launches and track them more accurate.
- Shanks on the old system were not picked up. Becuase of the improved ball track they now are.
- All is placed to the back, so you will have 10" more fiberbuilt grass for the follow thru.
- Components are less but better quality. For the last 2 years we have 0.00000000000000 hardware defects or DOA's.

Also the putting sensors have many improvements. You can tune it so when you hit 1 yard on your turf, it will show 1 yard on the screen. You can put from almost any angle making putting a lot more fun.

By default everything is tuned to get the right distances, but if you feel your clubspeed is 5mph higher and your distance is 2yards shorter you can tune it, without having to make complex changes or to read a 2000 page manual..

We also made a lot of improvements on the interfacing.

For example you can move your mouse or do other things on your PC, without interfering the sensor data stream. All 100% stable.

The sensors themselves are not closer together. They is still 5mm in between. We can't have it all, and it's really not needed.

And many more... but you have to see it to believe it I guess.

The launch camera will be a great addition, and you will only need to buy a webcam and hook it up. Cheap and simple. After that we will allow you to add more webcams (front, back, top, left, right, toilet) so you can get more information from any angle you want.

Anyone can do a high speed camera solution, but we want to keep it affordable. It's still under developement but we're getting there.

[ZMax]

Wow! Sounds great. I think want one.

On the 4 timing sensors, what is the configuration? Two in the front row and two in the back row? How far are they apart?

On the software side, hardware folks have had a hard time integrating with GSA. For example, P3proswing does not have penalties when hitting out of rough or sand while playing GSA. How does the Protee play courses handle penalties? Are they adjustable? Also, can the ball hit leaves and branches?

Are there adjustments for ball flight parameters? i.e. spinrate/curve factors? Club head/club path ratio?

Can you adjust clubs specs like in ProX? i.e. clubhead velocity, loft, distance, etc...for each club.

[ProTee]

Apart from the sensors the system also has built in audio detection. With this we can hear if a ball actualy has been hit by a club and at which impact.

We have no "integration". Our software is the software. The graphics, the physics and the game options are all in 1 package.

All the rules of golf are fully implemented and used. So penalties are given if a certain shot meets the conditions (out of bounce, water hazards, etc).

Besides that you can easiliy set a decrease factor with a simple slider on the bunkers and roughs so you will have to hit harder to get out of the rough or bunker.

You can hit leaves, branches, trunks, paths, buildings, or any other object and your ball will bounce back, up, or into another direction depending on the type of object.

If you hit leaves, you will hear you hit the leaves and the ballspeed will decrease. If you hit the top of a tree trunk, your ball will fall down and hit other trunks which will cause bounces in other directions (like you would expect). Balls will not be stopped by bushes, becuase if a course has been designed with many bushes closely together you will never be able to get out. Trees will also have enough space in between to hit back to the fairway.

You can adjust club head speed, ball speed, launch angle, drag and lift ratio. For each individual club at every possible ball speed. This way you can make a golf ball basically do anything you want. That's all you will need.

Let's say you hit like a robot and know exactly you hit 80mph with your 3 wood and you know you hit exactly 230 yards (carry). So you hit with your superswing and our system measures your special Pro V1 golf ball travelling at 108 mph.

Next you will see the ball fly and the carry shown is 220 yards. You say: HEY! That's not ok. I ussualy hit 10 yards further (yeahyeahyeah..blablabla), O and the system shows a clubspeed of 79mph (for whatever reason). You can tune the system to do exactly that. In other words you can make it perfect for you if you don't believe what the system tells you.

About 90% of all golfers who play on our simulator makes a shot and find the distance exactly like it would be in real.
5% still finds the distance perfect, but thinks the ball speed or club speed is not what it should be.
The other 5% also finds the distance to be perfect, but thinks he/she needs to tune it so everything is exactly the way he/she thinks it should be.

Well we offer that option. If you want to hit 400 yards with a pitching wedge you can! If you want a 10 yard carry with a driver and 350 yard roll, you can! If you want to add that extra 10 yards, you can...

ProX had too many details, which really are not needed and were causing confusion and lots of problems, because people were playing around with it, experimenting and making a big mess which could only be solved by reinstalling the full software.

We decided not to go that route anymore. Same counts for the camera's. No difficult setup or configuration. Just make sure it's horizontal somewhere and placed so it can see the ball flying by, we will pick it up.

Again, what was your question?

[ProTee]

Anyone happen to know of any US resellers for this system?

You can find the US distributor here http://www.proteegolfusa.com

[bubba22]

Thanks for the info. This is why I have been saying all along that I will get the ProTee. They seem to have good accuracy and measure the club and ball and looks like they will have a launch camera. i am definitely getting one and you can be assured that I will give a full review when I do.

[ZMax]

Again, what was your question?

You forgot to answer this one.

On the 4 timing sensors, what is the configuration? Two in the front row and two in the back row? How far are they apart?

I gotta say. I'm very impressed by what you have said about the Protee 2.0. Sound like the perfect simulator for me. I've played the Protee Play demo on the PC and it looked really good. I understand you have a trade in program? I have the old Protee 2008 and P3proswing sensor.

[bubba22]

ZMax that is why I said I am getting the ProTee. Look I started with the dd. Upgraded to the P3pro and now want a solid sim that has club and ball with launch. All the research in the right price range has some to the ProTee, GolfTek Pro 7 and the GSA. I think i would be happy with either one however the price, new sim board amd ProTee Play courses are what was leaning me towards the ProTee. Now that there is a ProTee rep on this board, I am sold.

[ProTee]

Sorry about that.

We have 6 timers on the base system.

2 near the golf ball triggered by the 4 resets on the back and stopper at ball impact.
2 near the golf ball triggered by the 1 reset sensor in the middle and stopped at ball impact.
1 at the ball track triggered by the 4 reset sensors on the back and stopped when the ball is detected on the ball track.
1 at the microphone/audio sensor triggered by the 4 reset sensors on the back and stopped at audio detection after which is detects the number of decibels.

You can also tune the sweetspot detection with a 0.15" accuracy so you can match is exactly with the ball prints on impact paper (if you have this impact paper of course).

We stopped the trade in program, because of the shipping cost. We now have a throw-it-away program. You need to destroy your old system with a sledge hammer and send us the pictures...

Just kidding, I'm always happy to give you a great offer for an upgrade.

[ZMax]

ZMax that is why I said I am getting the ProTee. Look I started with the dd. Upgraded to the P3pro and now want a solid sim that has club and ball with launch. All the research in the right price range has some to the ProTee, GolfTek Pro 7 and the GSA. I think i would be happy with either one however the price, new sim board amd ProTee Play courses are what was leaning me towards the ProTee. Now that there is a ProTee rep on this board, I am sold.

Me too!

LA upgrade free of charge....can't beat that.

[bubba22]

I have been saying this about the ProTee for months now. The launch add on will be free. One can use the ps3eye cam and get 120 fps which will be plenty to capture the launch. And geusse what, it's free. I am ordering one next week.

[ZMax]

I have been saying this about the ProTee for months now. The launch add on will be free. One can use the ps3eye cam and get 120 fps which will be plenty to capture the launch. And geusse what, it's free. I am ordering one next week.

You patience really paid off bubba22. It would be nice to finally have a simulator that just works out of the box. No tweaking or fixing.

[bubba22]

Well it has been a long road ZMax. I think you and I (and probably the vast majority of people reading this) are looking for the same thing, a simulator that is reasonable cost, that is accurate both in club data and ball data and that has an expanding library of courses with free upgrading technology like video capture etc. For all these things I think the ProTee is the one. I jumped to the P3pro because of its low cost and I wanted the ball launch. However the ball launch has been dropped, problems with the courses and lack of real ball data has been the real issues with the P3pro. Now I wish I have the ProTee already however I will be patient and like I said, will get one very, very soon. Hearing from the rep has just solidified mty decision.

[ZMax]

Looking forward to you review bubba22. And I might just be right behind you.

[northgolf]

I too am looking forward to your review.

I have the P3Pro right now and I expect to use through to at least next fall, but it is a stop gap on the way to something else.

[bubba22]

I am completely in the same situation as you Northgolf. I will definitely move on from the dd/p3pro, that is a given. I obviously want to keep the costs down. Not knocking the dd/p3pro but it has it's place,for the right person and at a lower price. I think a lot of us that are setup with one of these sims can easily upgrade. The GC2, although awesome, is just too expensive for me. The next obvious choices are the protee/gas/pro7. Very, very excited!!

[rdh]

I think it's fantastic to have a manufacturer actually participating on here - welcome ProTee! I already have my golftek device and am happy with it and the GSA software, but your commentary sounds really great (particularly the tweaks right within the red chain software).

This kind of participation is (obviously from reading this thread) a great sales tool. Eventually the other manufacturers will need to follow suit and more actively engage the user community, or sales will be lost.

[SDL]

I am completely in the same situation as you Northgolf. I will definitely move on from the dd/p3pro, that is a given. I obviously want to keep the costs down. Not knocking the dd/p3pro but it has it's place,for the right person and at a lower price. I think a lot of us that are setup with one of these sims can easily upgrade. The GC2, although awesome, is just too expensive for me. The next obvious choices are the protee/gas/pro7. Very, very excited!!

So what is the approximate price of the ProTee compared to the GC2? I thought they were both a pretty hefty increase over the P3Pro.

I'm also still thinking that the most realistic sim results will result from using a system that measures ball launch and spin as accurately as possible. Can the ProTee eventually be configured (with the new ball-cam) to measure ball flight/spin as accurately as the GC2?

SDL

[bubba22]

I fully agree rdh. I think it is all fantastic. There is lots of discussion and valuable information for the different sim companies here. Really listening to what we are saying here is a good sign and obviously the ProTee has been doing just that. Other companies will have to really pay attention as well. The cost of the Protee with 70 courses I believe is between 4-5 grand. Now remember that will include the launch cam which I believe will be accurate. I have the p3pro launch cam which I know is accurate,especially with the ps3eye cam. I am confident that the Protee cam will be acurate and cheaper.

[bubba22]

SDL I am not sure if we will ever know whether the ProTee will be as accurate as the GC2 or in general how "true to life" it really is. I do think it will simulate very well once the launch add on is present. We will know real soon once I get it. May have to wait until the launch add on is developed . Oh well at least we know they are working to soon develop it . As well I like the fact that one will get free courses and upgrades (video capture etc). It is near complete with respect to what I have been looking and begging for.

[blackfire]

Sorry about that.

We have 6 timers on the base system.

2 near the golf ball triggered by the 4 resets on the back and stopper at ball impact.
2 near the golf ball triggered by the 1 reset sensor in the middle and stopped at ball impact.
1 at the ball track triggered by the 4 reset sensors on the back and stopped when the ball is detected on the ball track.
1 at the microphone/audio sensor triggered by the 4 reset sensors on the back and stopped at audio detection after which is detects the number of decibels.

You can also tune the sweetspot detection with a 0.15" accuracy so you can match is exactly with the ball prints on impact paper (if you have this impact paper of course).

We stopped the trade in program, because of the shipping cost. We now have a throw-it-away program. You need to destroy your old system with a sledge hammer and send us the pictures...

Just kidding, I'm always happy to give you a great offer for an upgrade.

Hi Protee,

realy cool to have you here.

I have too questions:

1- It's related to club face angle. the club face angle is measured by the difference in time combine with club speed for the club to pass over the sensors and creat a shadow. If the club head is not centered as the sole of my club are round will the sensor or software will be able to measure club head accurately.

2- again if the club head is not in the center will the club path be accurate is it calculating from the difference between all sensors row or just from one row and presume your supposed to be club center.

tanks

[ProTee]

1- It's related to club face angle. the club face angle is measured by the difference in time combine with club speed for the club to pass over the sensors and creat a shadow. If the club head is not centered as the sole of my club are round will the sensor or software will be able to measure club head accurately.

The club face angle is measured on impact. The sweetspot deviation is picked up at the same time. Because the new sensors are running at much higher speeds than our previous system, we will get many more data packages from the sensor system enabling us to get more detailed data at impact.

2- again if the club head is not in the center will the club path be accurate is it calculating from the difference between all sensors row or just from one row and presume your supposed to be club center.

Club path (swing path) is calculated based on 2 rows of sensors. There is no room for guessing. So we measure it all the way at 2 points till the moment of impact.

[ProTee]

I'm also still thinking that the most realistic sim results will result from using a system that measures ball launch and spin as accurately as possible. Can the ProTee eventually be configured (with the new ball-cam) to measure ball flight/spin as accurately as the GC2?

SDL

When you only measure the ball at a short distance using a camera, you will never be able to simulate draws, slices, hooks, etc. You might get a good ball speed out of it and maybe even some spin rates, but what's the point.

What exactly can you learn from your ball speed and azimuth? I thought golf was about the player himself and his swing? A golf ball will fly anyway no matter with what kind of object you will hit it with (a tree trunk, your foot, just throw it, your wife, etc.).

Your slice, draw, speed, direction and the effect you apply to the golf ball (spin) is all coming from the club. This is why club manufacturers make so many different types and invest so much money in this. The energy from the club is transferred to the golf ball and not the other way around.

Systems that do not actually measure club head information, will always give you straight shots. That's the reason why we choose to do both.

Of course this has some limitation. You can't put the ball anywhere you want within your simulator. Without a fixed position you can't read the club data (which I think is the most important part).

Hit me!

[syhlif32]

Hi Protee
Does your software come with a course editor so you can make your own courses?
Think somebody stated that but I can't find that on your webpage.

Also do you have a price list so we do not have to guess?

And by the way thanks for taking part in the forum.

Bjarne

[stevnkrn]

When you only measure the ball at a short distance using a camera, you will never be able to simulate draws, slices, hooks, etc. You might get a good ball speed out of it and maybe even some spin rates, but what's the point.

What exactly can you learn from your ball speed and azimuth? I thought golf was about the player himself and his swing? A golf ball will fly anyway no matter with what kind of object you will hit it with (a tree trunk, your foot, just throw it, your wife, etc.).

Your slice, draw, speed, direction and the effect you apply to the golf ball (spin) is all coming from the club. This is why club manufacturers make so many different types and invest so much money in this. The energy from the club is transferred to the golf ball and not the other way around.



Of course this has some limitation. You can't put the ball anywhere you want within your simulator. Without a fixed position you can't read the club data (which I think is the most important part).

Hit me!

Systems that do not actually measure club head information, will always give you straight shots. That's the reason why we choose to do both.


Do you still have to select the club you are using before hitting a shot when the launch camera is used? I have a P3Pro and one the things that has always bugged me about it is having to tell the system what club I am using for it to calculate its information correctly.

[js1010]

Pro Tee, nice to have you posting on this great forum.

But, I don't understand the following statements from your last post.

"When you only measure the ball at a short distance using a camera, you will never be able to simulate draws, slices, hooks, etc. You might get a good ball speed out of it and maybe even some spin rates, but what's the point."

or

"Systems that do not actually measure club head information, will always give you straight shots. "


Camera based systems that measure ball speed, azimuth, launch angle, back spin and side spin can definitely reproduce ball curvature - ball starts on the azimuth line and curves based on a negative or positive side spin number.

Maybe I misunderstood you point

[rdh]

I was confused by those comments also.

In response to this one:

Do you still have to select the club you are using before hitting a shot when the launch camera is used? I have a P3Pro and one the things that has always bugged me about it is having to tell the system what club I am using for it to calculate its information correctly.

Only systems that measure spin can eliminate the club selection process. This is because the other variables on their own are not enough to calculate spin and project an accurate ball flight. Think about it - you could take a half swing with a driver and hit the ball on the upswing, or a full swing with a knock-down 7 iron, and achieve the same ball path, ball speed and launch angle. The difference is spin. The driver will have minimal spin, where the knock-down 7 iron will have heavy back spin. The ball trajectories and distances from the two shots will be much different. So, just because you have a system that can read the launch angle and ball speed, does not eliminate the need to tell it what club you're using. If you want that, shell out the cash for a GC2-type device.