Protee Sim

[ZMax]

For a 7 iron, that looks about right. I would like to see one with a driver, but that image looks very accurate.

oops, blackfire is right, it shold not have started right. Then end result is good, though.

[bubba22]

I wonder how the ball sensor plays into this flight path?

[rdh]

I expect it would be the same as my Pro7. The azimuth determines the initial ball direction, so I feed that in to GSA Golf and the trajectory is affected accordingly. Generally the azimuth is about what you'd expect so I think it can be calculated with reasonable accuracy, but there are definitely exceptions where the ball does something that goes against what a calculated estimation would have been. In those cases the ball flight path will be different than it would have been without the ball direction sensor.

[bubba22]

I think the reaction of the P3pro, GGS and Pro Tee will all be similair and acceptable by me.

[ZMax]

I wonder how the ball sensor plays into this flight path?

Good question. I was just thinking about that. Perhaps in this new image, the golfer didn't hit the ball squarely? And the ball sensor actually measured the ball path 7 deg right? The side spin number seemed a little high.

I also wonder how accurate the ball path measurements are with the ball sensor being so close to the impact point.

[blackfire]

1- 0,19'' at 10'' so from my calculation it is 1/3 of a degree

2- with ball path GGS and protee and pro7 should be more accurate then P3Pro NO???

[ZMax]

1- 0,19'' at 10'' so from my calculation it is 1/3 of a degree

Distance from ball sensor to point of impact?

2- with ball path GGS and protee and pro7 should be more accurate then P3Pro NO???

The key word is should. The software plays a big part in this. Good sensor but crappy software makes it pointless.

I'm still working on my ball sensor. New ProX and GSA courses will be here Wednesday. I will review in bits and pieces, but my system will actually be a GGS PX2 with GGS interface.

[bubba22]

Sounds good ZMax.

[blackfire]

Distance from ball sensor to point of impact?



The key word is should. The software plays a big part in this. Good sensor but crappy software makes it pointless.

I'm still working on my ball sensor. New ProX and GSA courses will be here Wednesday. I will review in bits and pieces, but my system will actually be a GGS PX2 with GGS interface.

Yes 0,19 is the space between sensors and 10" is the distance between the ball and the ball path and speed rows of sensors so calculation make's it a 1/3 of a degree

[blackfire]

finally I eraly made up my mind and will go with GC2. Listening to you guys with all the software algorithm problems.

It's been two years that I'm looking searching and trying simulator, I' had a GGS sensor pad and was not happy. club face is not accurate if not perfectly in the center of the club witch I'm not always

I have now the P3Pro and I can say that I'm more happy with accuracy of club data then the GGS but still not happy cause of the mising ball datas.

Perfect combination will be a real accurate SIM with GC2 and sometimes use the P3Pro for realy accurate club information as I aleready have the P3Pro.

I will now live that thread

thanks and see you on the P3Pro and GC2 thread

[ZMax]

It's been two years that I'm looking searching and trying simulator, I' had a GGS sensor pad and was not happy. club face is not accurate if not perfectly in the center of the club witch I'm not always

Can you elaborate on this? Which sensor pad did you have and what software were you using? I don't understand how the club face reading is only good if you're hitting the ball on the center of the face, since the readings are taken just before the point of impact?

I've only had my sensor working for the last few days so I haven't use it much, but I did have to mentally adjust to the new tee location. The P3pro had the tee in the middle( a tad forward) and it was a very comfortable position.

I take it you sent the GGS back to Martin?

[blackfire]

Can you elaborate on this? Which sensor pad did you have and what software were you using? I don't understand how the club face reading is only good if you're hitting the ball on the center of the face, since the readings are taken just before the point of impact?

I've only had my sensor working for the last few days so I haven't use it much, but I did have to mentally adjust to the new tee location. The P3pro had the tee in the middle( a tad forward) and it was a very comfortable position.

I take it you sent the GGS back to Martin?

I realy like this question cause that's the reason why I exchage my PX2 with ProX against the P3Pro witch does not that if tapping.

the club face angle is calculated by the difference in time for the club head to pass over the sensor just before the ball. to measure club face it is using only the too first one in the midle on each side of the ball. The base of the club head is round and not square so if you hit the ball half inche more on the heal the club face will reach the sensor oposite to you before the other one resulting in a club face closed and you can figure every posibility club face open but read closed cause you hit it on the toe. that is not to bad with midle iron club but woods are worst and PW, SW and LW are extremely round so very innacurate if just a bit of set. If you have side angle ball data you correst half of the proble cause spin is CALCULATED from club face angle and club path.

When I talked about this to Martin, he told me YES we know.

after that he came hot with the camera and posted exactly that with images on is camera page that I link down here for you.

go about the midle of this page and read about club face angle comparing camera and sensor mat.

http://www.golfsimfactory.com/Camera.htm

[blackfire]

Can you elaborate on this? Which sensor pad did you have and what software were you using? I don't understand how the club face reading is only good if you're hitting the ball on the center of the face, since the readings are taken just before the point of impact?

I've only had my sensor working for the last few days so I haven't use it much, but I did have to mentally adjust to the new tee location. The P3pro had the tee in the middle( a tad forward) and it was a very comfortable position.

I take it you sent the GGS back to Martin?

forgot to say that no I did not send it back to martin I exchage it for a P3Pro with Cory that wanted to try for cheaper price so we made an arrangement.

I'm more happy with the P3Pro I fond it more accurate for club data. I dont play the 3 wood, 5 wood 9 iron, PW, SW and LW cause y hate tapping my club and the club head base of the face is to round to be accurate for me. plus remember that accurcy of deviation of the ball on the club head is 1/2 inche on a P3Pro and 1/4 inches in PRO7, GGS and protee due to distance between sensors

I only tape the toe and the heel to keep 2 inches witch is the same as the reflective tape, I'm also not playing my woods except my driver that I realy tape all the way with black and reflective stripe witch I hate again that is the main reason why I'm going for the GC2. with my experience with the P3 and GGS when I see a ball flight I have a better idea of the club then before and certainly recomande the P3Pro or an other just remember that the accuracy depends on how centered you are with the ball on the club face

[ZMax]

I realy like this question cause that's the reason why I exchage my PX2 with ProX against the P3Pro witch does not that if tapping.

the club face angle is calculated by the difference in time for the club head to pass over the sensor just before the ball. to measure club face it is using only the too first one in the midle on each side of the ball. The base of the club head is round and not square so if you hit the ball half inche more on the heal the club face will reach the sensor oposite to you before the other one resulting in a club face closed and you can figure every posibility club face open but read closed cause you hit it on the toe. that is not to bad with midle iron club but woods are worst and PW, SW and LW are extremely round so very innacurate if just a bit of set. If you have side angle ball data you correst half of the proble cause spin is CALCULATED from club face angle and club path.

When I talked about this to Martin, he told me YES we know.

after that he came hot with the camera and posted exactly that with images on is camera page that I link down here for you.

go about the midle of this page and read about club face angle comparing camera and sensor mat.

http://www.golfsimfactory.com/Camera.htm

I've read that page and what he is comparing there is the accuracy between IR sensor detection and cameras.

But from reading what you wrote above, it sounds like you had the ball placed in the middle of the mat in between the two roll of sensors? I don't believe that is where the ball should be hit from. You can see that the tee location is towards the front just after the last roll of sensors(impact point).

I can see that you would have club face problems if you were hitting the ball from between the two roll of sensors.

[bubba22]

Well I have the P3pro and I can tell you it is not 100 percent accurate in measuring the club angle nor the club path. It is certainly not accurate in measuring the ball which it doesn't at all. I do not full agree with Martins diagram as it is a generalized simplification of the sensor measurements.

[blackfire]

I've read that page and what he is comparing there is the accuracy between IR sensor detection and cameras.

But from reading what you wrote above, it sounds like you had the ball placed in the middle of the mat in between the two roll of sensors? I don't believe that is where the ball should be hit from. You can see that the tee location is towards the front just after the last roll of sensors(impact point).

I can see that you would have club face problems if you were hitting the ball from between the two roll of sensors.

club head square result square see the tree ---
(
SENSOR---(
ball ( club face
SENSOR---(
(

club head square but result is face closed because the center of the club pass over the the sensor near you before the other one

SENSOR--- (
ball (
SENSOR---( club face
(
(

club head is square but result is face open because the center of the club pass over the the sensor far from you before the other one
(
(
SENSOR---( club face
ball (
SENSOR--- (

this his exagerated but if you thinks about it and let me say that I've did it's not working for me if you read carefuly where he explain the proble when you are offset from center club you will understand.

Sorry english is not my primary language so it's difficult for me to say what I what to say.

if you whant more explaination send me an e-mail personnaly and maybe we could talk on the phone

tremblay.carol@hotmail.com

[blackfire]

nothing worked sorry I will do a draw with paint and post it tomorow

[ZMax]

Blackfire,

I understand what you're saying and I'll see if I can duplicate it tomorrow.

[blackfire]

there'sthe images form martin the explaination from Martin and a few add from me

[blackfire]

sorry mist the first attachement here it is

[rdh]

I emailed martin on this a while back. I'll see if I can dig out the diagram I sent him. I completely disagree with this explanation, UNLESS the row of sensors is VERY short. In my pro 7, the sensor row is long so even if you hit the ball completely off the toe or heel, the club is still within the row of sensors and the system reads the face correctly. Those diagrams are an oversimplification that would only apply with a short row of sensors.

[rdh]

I've attached my reply to Martin's explanation. His diagram is on the left, mine (longer sensor row) on the right. Explanation below the images.

Maybe the GGS devices have a short sensor row so this might be a problem for them. Not the case with the Pro 7. In fact, Golftek briefly had a "Pro 6" device, but it came out as the oversized drivers were hitting the market and they DID have this kind of issue since the sensor row was too short. They increased the length of the sensor row for the Pro 7 and it handles this fine.

So, this may be a commentary on a limitation with GGS's own sensor pads, and not sensor pads in general.

[rdh]

Also, the "round" leading club path is handled by the logic in these devices and the associated software. It's always been something they've needed to deal with (round wedge edges).

Golftek owns a swing robot and has extensively tested their devices to ensure very high accuracy. I don't contend that it's as accurate as the GC2 (I have been very impressed by the stats they promote) but it is solid and handles the toe/heel impact fine.

[blackfire]

I don't know for protee and Pro7 but for GGS to measure club face angle the system only uses the to first sensor of the row on each side of the ball. The rest of the sensors measures club face offset(heel or toe) from center or the ball.

I presume that pro tee is doing the same cause if you look at my next post I will attach an exchage of e-mail between me and the protee rep and I asked the question about robot testing or other private testing and they did'nt make any.

Pro7 does all the test with the robot but if you look at the test result they show us on they're page they're always in the center of the club.

But again I think it's a mather of what your budget is, what accuracy you need or whant and what data you whant from it.

[blackfire]

here's the e-mail between me and and protee-united rep

[ZMax]

OK, I just did a bunch of testing and here's what I found:

Blackfire is sort of right but for the driver and most clubs, were are talking about extreme toe/heel hits. I don't know if the Pro7 is designed this way but on the GGS board, the club must pass over the two timing sensors(the last and the first sensors, above/below the tee, of the first row) for the system to read club face angle correctly.

RDH, can you run some tests for me? Slowly swing a 7 iron over the sensor pad but make sure that you're only going over the top middle half of the first row(above the tee), try not catch any sensors in the bottom half. And then do the same with the bottom half but try not to catch the top half. After that, do both test again but this time, try to catch just the very bottom(last sensor) of the top half with the toe, or the very top(first sensor) of the bottom half with the heel.

My tests showed that with my driver, it's a non issue. If I'm hitting the ball that far off the face of a 460, basically shanking it, then an open club face is the least of my worries as I might have killed somebody.

Most of my irons were the same way. It's like hitting half of the ball with the toe or the heel. If you're doing that, you're shanking it.

I did see a problem with my SW and LW. It's due to the fact that these clubs have smaller faces compared to the rest of my irons. Game improving wedges with over sized faces might not have this problem.

The problem is there due to the placement of the front row sensors, more specifically the timing sensors. Looking at the GGS sensor from the top view, you see that there's a gap between the top and the bottom half of the front row sensors. The gap has to be there for the sensors to measure face angle accurately. If there was no gap, the sensors would have to be reprogrammed to operate differently or you would get square face readings all the time.

RDH, please verify if yours operate this way.

There is a fix. The timing sensors can be moved a little closer to each other, but not too close as to lose accuracy. You would of course need to cut the slots in the grass panels completely through or closer to each other, to allow the light to reach them. The circuit board can accommodate this. Why Martin hasn't done this? Who knows. I'll have to give him a call.

[rdh]

Hi ZMax -

I'll try to do that for you sometime very soon. To be honest I haven't had my simulator turned on since December 18th (as sad as that may be) due to work commitments that have had me working pretty much every night and a good chunk of each weekend. I can see the light finally, so I'll try to find some time to do this. I'm interested to check it as well, but like you said, if it only affects extreme toe and heel shots, then you have bigger issues than worrying about accuracy anyway.

[ZMax]

Hi ZMax -

I'll try to do that for you sometime very soon. To be honest I haven't had my simulator turned on since December 18th (as sad as that may be) due to work commitments that have had me working pretty much every night and a good chunk of each weekend. I can see the light finally, so I'll try to find some time to do this. I'm interested to check it as well, but like you said, if it only affects extreme toe and heel shots, then you have bigger issues than worrying about accuracy anyway.

Thanks RDH. I'm still trying to get a hold of Martin but he's probably busy with the show.

[bubba22]

Well explained ZMax. I had the same thought exactly in that the issues are more with extreme heel/toe shots. I just think that it is oversimplified by Martin.

[ZMax]

Well explained ZMax. I had the same thought exactly in that the issues are more with extreme heel/toe shots. I just think that it is oversimplified by Martin.

He sure makes you want to get a high speed camera for club tracking doesn't he?