Am I wrong in my thinking...

[sensfan63]

Rules are rules-if your going to play the game -play by the rules.

The problem with today's thinking is-------no one is right and no one is wrong. You can "DEBATE" until your blue in the face-------a decision is only made when someone has the power to make it and the power to enforce it---------maybe something like a DICTATORSHIP

You know, you are absolutely right. There are rules that golfers play by, and to play in designated and recognized amateur tournaments, you must be an amateur. If you happen to play in one of these scrambles AND ARE CAUGHT/REPORTED, then you've forfeited your right to play in amateur events. Simple as that.

I would remind Dan that these rules are written by the same people that write the actual "playing" Rules of Golf, so the same respect must be given to them as, say, rules governing unplayable lies. As big mac said, we can debate the SPIRIT of the given rule, but in the end if one doesn't follow it, well, I guess that's called hypocrisy. The key here, in my opinion, is to not get caught!!!

As many things in life, if one doesn't like the rule, one should go about trying to change the rule in the way rules are prescribed to be changed (ie. in government, the democratic process...in golf, I don't know, how do you go about lobbying to change rules?).

EDIT - In the end, we all are pretty sure that these scrambles will continue to be given the blind eye. But, I'm kinda looking forward to the day that Golf Canada or one of the local associations goes ahead and cracks down, because the first time they do it, all hell will break loose.

[Kilroy]

I have no problem at all respecting the rules. I am suprised that the word now is that these events are not within the acceptable forms of gambling for those who want to retain amateur status.

[sensfan63]

I have no problem at all respecting the rules. I am suprised that the word now is that these events are not within the acceptable forms of gambling for those who want to retain amateur status.

I don't think they ever were. Golf Canada and other associations turn a blind eye to them, that's all.

[BC MIST]

wouldn't anyone who entered that tournament be a "professional" now?

They would be a "non amateur."

[jeffc]

They would be a "non amateur."

interesting. is there a category for non amateur? i thought it was amateur or professional. So this makes me think - since golf is such a game of honour, and that we call penalties on ourselves, does this not make all that enter and play in these events and then compete in other amateur events effectively cheating?

btw, this is not really my opinion, rather I am playing the devil's advocate.

[BC MIST]

interesting. is there a category for non amateur? i thought it was amateur or professional. So this makes me think - since golf is such a game of honour, and that we call penalties on ourselves, does this not make all that enter and play in these events and then compete in other amateur events effectively cheating?

Yes. But if the competitor indicates that he will accept non monetary prizes in lieu of cash, then his entry is seen as acceptable.

FWIW: The Rules of Amateur Status are quite involved and an interesting read and whether one agrees with it or not, the distinction between and amateur and one who is not, is quite black and white
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules...mateur-Status/

[sensfan63]

Yes. But if the competitor indicates that he will accept non monetary prizes in lieu of cash, then his entry is seen as acceptable.

FWIW: The Rules of Amateur Status are quite involved and an interesting read and whether one agrees with it or not, the distinction between and amateur and one who is not, is quite black and white
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules...mateur-Status/

I'm sure you've played with hundreds of players throughout your competitive days that SHOULD have been considered non-amateurs. How do you feel about that?

[Chambokl]

I'm sure you've played with hundreds of players throughout your competitive days that SHOULD have been considered non-amateurs. How do you feel about that?

I would say 90% of the people on this board... who has not played for some $$$...

[justsomeguy]

I have no problem at all respecting the rules. I am surprised that the word now is that these events are not within the acceptable forms of gambling for those who want to retain amateur status.

I am surprised that some of the same people who rather forcefully argue that anyone who does not play according to the Rules of Golf as laid out by the RCGA "is not playing golf"...

...are now arguing that anyone who plays in scrambles should no longer be considered an amateur golfer because they won money playing "golf". A scramble event is either a game of golf or it isn't - you can't have it both ways!

As with the Rules of Golf, I think the Definitions section of the Rules of Amateur Status contains the answers to most of the questions:

Amateur Golfer
An “amateur golfer” is one who plays the game as a non-remunerative or non-profit making sport and who does not receive remuneration for teaching golf or for other activities because of golf skill or reputation, except as provided in the Rules.

I assume that "the game" they're referring to is the actual game of golf and not a scramble. Furthermore:

Golf Skill or Reputation
Generally, an amateur golfer is only considered to have golf skill if he has had competitive success at the local level or competes at the national level. Golf reputation can only be gained through golf skill and does not include prominence for service to the game of golf as an administrator. It is a matter for the RCGA to decide whether a particular amateur golfer has golf skill or reputation.

Once again, I assume that "competitive success" refers to playing real golf - not scrambles. To the best of my knowledge, these individuals do not consistently win (or even enter) local OVGA tournaments or compete at the national level. I believe they only play scrambles, the Citizen tournament, club championships and intersectionals. So while I have no doubt that these individuals can play the game quite well and have achieved some success at a certain level, I don't think they're in the same class as the people who win the Tunis or other competitive OVGA events.

[gbower]

To the best of my knowledge, these individuals do not consistently win (or even enter) local OVGA tournaments or compete at the national level. I believe they only play scrambles, the Citizen tournament, club championships and intersectionals. So while I have no doubt that these individuals can play the game quite well and have achieved some success at a certain level, I don't think they're in the same class as the people who win the Tunis or other competitive OVGA events.

One of the two individuals did happen to win the OVGA City & District "A" event this year and it wasn't even close as he won by 16 strokes, no fluke. The other half of the team was runner up last year in the OVGA match play. Although they don't play in a lot of OVGA tournaments they are both very good golfers and there are lots of teams out there to try to take them down.

[BC MIST]

I'm sure you've played with hundreds of players throughout your competitive days that SHOULD have been considered non-amateurs. How do you feel about that?

Not hundreds, but definitely some. Going way back in time, there were a handful who apparently did lose their amateur status for participating in organized, money for prizes, competitions.

There is part of me that sees these competitions as “no harm, no foul,” where a very small number of players may win enough money to possibly get their entry fee back or enough to buy a few extra beers. The prizes are incidental to participating in a unique format and having a good day on the golf course where the game is more important than anything else. However, another part of me does not agree with the game being used to supplement players incomes, or by their participation in “Calcuttas,” which are not only against the Rules, but apparently against the law.

The governing golf associations are well aware of what is happening, but because they are primarily stocked with volunteers who spend countless hours organizing tournaments and related activities, creating an amateur status police unit is not likley to happen. However, it would not take much for one event to be “raided,” and used as an example, with amateur status lost for money winners. Those of us who still compete in OVGA/GC/RCGA events would be wise to indicate beforehand that prizes won be in the form of a voucher/certificate.

[Big Johnny69]

I am surprised that some of the same people who rather forcefully argue that anyone who does not play according to the Rules of Golf as laid out by the RCGA "is not playing golf"...

...are now arguing that anyone who plays in scrambles should no longer be considered an amateur golfer because they won money playing "golf". A scramble event is either a game of golf or it isn't - you can't have it both ways!

As with the Rules of Golf, I think the Definitions section of the Rules of Amateur Status contains the answers to most of the questions:

Amateur Golfer
An “amateur golfer” is one who plays the game as a non-remunerative or non-profit making sport and who does not receive remuneration for teaching golf or for other activities because of golf skill or reputation, except as provided in the Rules.

I assume that "the game" they're referring to is the actual game of golf and not a scramble. Furthermore:

Golf Skill or Reputation
Generally, an amateur golfer is only considered to have golf skill if he has had competitive success at the local level or competes at the national level. Golf reputation can only be gained through golf skill and does not include prominence for service to the game of golf as an administrator. It is a matter for the RCGA to decide whether a particular amateur golfer has golf skill or reputation.

Once again, I assume that "competitive success" refers to playing real golf - not scrambles. To the best of my knowledge, these individuals do not consistently win (or even enter) local OVGA tournaments or compete at the national level. I believe they only play scrambles, the Citizen tournament, club championships and intersectionals. So while I have no doubt that these individuals can play the game quite well and have achieved some success at a certain level, I don't think they're in the same class as the people who win the Tunis or other competitive OVGA events.

Mr. McGee has won the City and District 3 or 4 years in a row, the Tournament of Champions (both OVGA highly regarded events), Smuggler's Shootout and the prestigious Volvo World Amateur championship in 06. I think his local and abroad reputation speaks for itself and definitely puts him in the same class as those that win the Tunis and other amateur tourneys.

[Kilroy]

If one of the ROs at an OVGA event is aware that a player is ineligible, would it not be his responsibility to speak up and DQ the player?

[hoolio]

If one of the ROs at an OVGA event is aware that a player is ineligible, would it not be his responsibility to speak up and DQ the player?

Would that not be like a police officer at a RIDE program arresting you because you may have driven over the limit in the past, but have not yet been convicted of anything?

If the governing body wants to crack down, then they should do it for everyone, but their RO's should not take it upon themselves to enforce something outside the event they are working.

[Shushu]

HEY!!!!!

Who highjacked this thread.

This is turning into a great debate. So one of these guy's won a bunch of prestigious tourney's and one was runner up at another. Not being good enough to ever even think of looking into these; is there money for the winners, or is this a matter of pride and bragging rights kinda tourny's? Maybe these qualify you to take part in CPGA events if you win enough?

[Big Johnny69]

The OVGA and Volvo events would most likely award prizes, but they would be acceptable under the rules of amateur status and would definitely not be cash.

HEY!!!!!

Who highjacked this thread.

This is turning into a great debate. So one of these guy's won a bunch of prestigious tourney's and one was runner up at another. Not being good enough to ever even think of looking into these; is there money for the winners, or is this a matter of pride and bragging rights kinda tourny's? Maybe these qualify you to take part in CPGA events if you win enough?

[Shushu]

Weird rules. But what else would I expect from this game I love. Does anyone know why there a distinction between cash and gift certificates? Anyone can write a gift certificate for any amount.

"By awarding merchandise of gift certificates redeemable for merchandise instead of cash, the group would ensure that the amateur status of the players is not even brought into question."

[quinner]

All I can say is that I am completely shocked that this thread has gone on this long.

[mikelaurin]

Srambles have turned from a fun day to a day of making alot of money ,if you dont like the competition or feel you have no chance dont play,I wouldnt play in one if I felt I couldnt compete

[CEP]

I find all of the comments rather interesting and it triggered a need to post - which I have not done in years. I am not going to wade into the amateur quagmire - leaving that to those more competent than I to debate.

However, having played in this event since its inception and having won it a few years back in rather atrocious conditions, I just wanted to say that $$ has NEVER been the motivator to participate in these events. The desire to compete and test your mettle against others, the elements and the golf course ARE the primary goals.

I, for one, have no issue with those who consistently win these and other similar events. I congratulate them for being rather adept and passionate about their sport while fully realizing this is not what they do for a 'living'... If you are uncomfortable with competing on that playing field, then simply choose not to participate. However, if you do want to compete and test yourself, the formula for success is rather simple - play better.

[goochy]

I don't want to sound ignorant...but what exactly is a "calcutta"?

[goley]

Was going to write out the whole thing but this was eaiser... http://golf.about.com/od/golfterms/g/bldef_calcutta.htm

[goochy]

thanks Goley...sounds a bit confusing and I had no idea about these. I am such an innocent