Am I wrong in my thinking...

[Shushu]

Last Friday I golfed a great event at Greensmere. 2 man team, 36 holes (each nine a different format) breakfast, lunch and dinner along with prizes. Turned into a great day as the sun came out.

Now to my problem.....

The score that won the event was -19. Very good score. Just over a birdie every 2 holes. There was some grumbling in the back of the room. Turns out the twosome is well known around the area for being really good golfers. They had won the Sun Scramble Open championship the last 6 years in a row. Beating the likes of Kevin Haime and other pros playing in the same tourney. No doubt they are great and compliment each other very well for each others games. I heard that one of them played on the CPGA for a year. But there were 72 other twosomes that go into these tourneys with the hope that they may have a chance to try and win something. The twosome that won took home Roughly 6-7 prizes that night. Low score total and low score on 2 out of the 4 nine's, best score on a hole (Eagle of course) plus other prizes (I'm sure there may have been a door prize in there too.) Well worth the entrance fee.

I for one don't know how I feel about this. In one hand, I of course try to find a complimentary player and try to win these events just like them. I unfortunatly am not that great, nor do I know anyone else that plays that great either to get a score like that.

On the other hand, these guy's seem like "professional" amateurs. Putting a bad taste in me wanting to spend any money on tourney's like this. Although I don't think this tourney was for any charity, it still feels a bit unfair to me.

I guess from now on I am going to be asking if they are signed up to play in tourney's before I enter one from now on. Really there is no point. Who's going to beat them??? And knowing your playing for 2nd place before teeing it off would suck.

They could be very nice guy's. And a pleasure to play with.

Just my humble opinion of course.

[4jag]

Don't blame these guys for being good. I suspect that if the tables were turned you (and most everyone else) were shooting -19 you would be playing in as many of these events as possible to cash in. There is nothing illegal or unethical with being skilled.

If the only reason you sign-up is to win and you don't think you have a chance then yes, take a pass. But if you sign-up for 2 rounds of competition on a good course with good food and good company and yes maybe a chance to win a prize then why would you not play???

[BlueMan]

Without throwing any names out there I know exactly who you are talking about. If you want my opinion they are professional amateurs but also in my eyes illegal amateurs. If you look up the rules of amateur status on the Golf Canada (Formerly RCGA) website the rules and regulation are pretty clear. Any "amateur" golfer making more then 999.99 playing golf shall lose his amateur status and be labeled not as a pro but as a "non-amateur" thus losing his or her amateur status. However the problem with this is that Golf Canada does not have a "Amatuer status police", everything they find out is by word of mouth. So if you feel like being the guy who calls them out give golf canada a call and let them know. Because I know first hand they make 10 times the legal amount every year simply playing in amateur tournaments (cash scrambles and closed invitationals) in which your team is suppose to have a pro who collects the money. But I think we all know this doesnt happen all the time.

These guys are the best players in the area bar none and everyone knows that. But is it really fair if they can get paid off to get better and everyone else can't? That's the message golf canada is trying to send.

[nokids]

If I ever entered one of these events my goal would be to not finish last. Anything better is gravvvvvyyyyyyy-licious.

[Shushu]

Maybe. But I'm sure word would get out and some people wouldn't want to play for 2nd without hitting your first ball. I'm sure there great guy's...seemed very happy that night (I'm sure I would be too). Most of my tourneys are for a good cause...and usually the prizes are not all that great. This is different to me. Everyone deserves a chance to win. I doubt anyone else in the Ottawa area can beat them. That's all. I stand by my feeling. Unless for some divine interevention where I and a friend become scratch golfers over the winter...I won't be entering anything, non-charity if there entered as well. Someone else can spend the $150 each to enter.

Don't blame these guys for being good. I suspect that if the tables were turned you (and most everyone else) were shooting -19 you would be playing in as many of these events as possible to cash in. There is nothing illegal or unethical with being skilled.

If the only reason you sign-up is to win and you don't think you have a chance then yes, take a pass. But if you sign-up for 2 rounds of competition on a good course with good food and good company and yes maybe a chance to win a prize then why would you not play???

[Shushu]

HAHA...for the most part I agree with you on this.

If I ever entered one of these events my goal would be to not finish last. Anything better is gravvvvvyyyyyyy-licious.

[jvincent]

Just to be clear, the Rules for Amateur status are that you cannot win any prize valued more than $1000. It doesn't set a yearly limit.

That being said, I don't think Alan and Kyle (there's no point in hiding the names, everyone knows who we are talking about so it's silly to try an hide it) are doing anything wrong.

They played according to the rules of the competition and won. Good for them. They did not win all the prizes and I'm sure did not take home more than half of the total prize pool, which would have put them over the amateur limit.

As an example, mjf and I played pretty well (-7), finish 5th overall, and took home some cash. The guy sitting next to me won a CTP and took home some cash as well. Lots of other people won prizes as well.

They have been challenged a couple of times for the Sun Scramble so it's not a slam dunk that they will always win that. They are VERY good golfers and play really well as a team so I expect they will always do well in that event.

Personally I think it's good having the best guys in the field. It gives everyone something to shoot for.

[Shushu]

I for one am not calling them cheaters or anything like that. -7 is a good score as well. I beleive we ended up -3. We left a lot out there on the course that we should have made. Should have been closer to -10. Ces't la vie. All I'm saying is that they seem unbeatable right now. I didn't enter the Open championship simply because I just don't have that game. They are verrryyy good golfers by the sounds of it. I would love to see it personanlly. I bet they elevate a lot of people games. You were -7 and probably missed a few shots as well. If they weren't in the competition you may have won if you or your partner had made those putts. I just don't personally want to have no chance going into a tourney like that. They scored better then most scramble foursomes score, and not on an easy scramble format. That's incredible golf. I bet they had a chance for birdie on almost every hole. Wouldn't surprise me to see them -25 to -30 next year without all of the water on the newest holes.

Just to be clear, the Rules for Amateur status are that you cannot win any prize valued more than $1000. It doesn't set a yearly limit.

That being said, I don't think Alan and Kyle (there's no point in hiding the names, everyone knows who we are talking about so it's silly to try an hide it) are doing anything wrong.

They played according to the rules of the competition and won. Good for them. They did not win all the prizes and I'm sure did not take home more than half of the total prize pool, which would have put them over the amateur limit.

As an example, mjf and I played pretty well (-7), finish 5th overall, and took home some cash. The guy sitting next to me won a CTP and took home some cash as well. Lots of other people won prizes as well.

They have been challenged a couple of times for the Sun Scramble so it's not a slam dunk that they will always win that. They are VERY good golfers and play really well as a team so I expect they will always do well in that event.

Personally I think it's good having the best guys in the field. It gives everyone something to shoot for.

[jvincent]

They were actually in the group behind us playing with the team that finished second. We saw/heard a lot of tee shots land in places that were simply out of reach for us and both mjf and I are longer off the tee than most.

Kyle and Alan didn't actually win the scramble section. They were "only" 6 under if I remember. We were -4 and really should have been -5 thanks to a missed 18" birdie putt.

Where they killed the field was in the other formats. We were happy to be +1 in the alternate shot. I think they were -2, which is really good when you think about the number of times you've been -2 for nine holes. That means they were a combined -11 in the Chapman and Best Ball. In order to do that you have to be really, really good, which they are.

The rest of us just have to get better.

[mikelaurin]

Why would you play in a tournament if you didnt have a chance to win it

[jvincent]

Because its fun just to play. We went in with no expectations and came out with some prize money. Like nokids said, gravylicious!

And you never know we might play out of minds AND catch the top guys on an off day.

[Brewcee]

A couple thoughts on the thread

1. Being really really good, doesn't make you less of an amateur. (ex Bobby Jones). Sure it sucks for everyone else, but thats life. As long as they are not breaking any rules all the power to them. One day someone is going to come along and beat them, thats just how it goes, they can't stay on top forever. Furthermore, even really good players have bad days or get injuried, in which case it is anyones race.

2. They likely don't release the names of entrants until entries close, so you may never know if they are in the field until it is too late to get your money back or sign up.

3. If your goal is to win the tournament and you think you don't have a realistic chance of doing it, then I would agree you should not enter and should look for a tournament that you have a better chance of winning. This happens all the time in sports. For example, in squash your world ranking is based on the average number of points you accumulate per tournament over 12 months. If there is a tournament that you know you will not get a lot of points in (too many good players already in it), you simply don't play it since it will have a negative effect on your average points per tournament. Its not that simple, but gives you an idea. My point is, if the point is to challenge to win every tournament you play than you have to pick your tournaments strategically. I good strategy would be to pick tournaments these individuals are not playing in.

[quinner]

If playing against the best isn't your thing, perhaps just stick to the tournaments with the different flights, where in a perfect world you are up against guys of your own caliber.

[Ruskie]

Why would you play in a tournament if you didnt have a chance to win it

Because you'll never have a chance of winning if you don't compete. It's all about improving your game, and for me at least, competition is helping me get better.

[mikelaurin]

Dont get me wrong I would play ,always play in scrambles out this way but the problem I have is with the prize money getting so high from calcuttas people fudge there handicaps to add up I guese this tournament had no minimum handicap ,4 members from cederglen won there 4 man yesterday beating a few pros so it is possible

[Chambokl]

I play 5 or 6 tournaments per year... do I have a chance to win these tournament... NO... do I have fun... lots... do I care .... NO...

Like somebody said... play in flighted tournament and then you will accuse people to be sandbaggers....

When you play in a ball tournament you know before the starts that there is only 2 or 3 teams that have a good chance to win... c'est la vie.

Tournaments is more for the fun, great course (bonus), good food, maybe a prize or 2, a skin maybe, etc... but hopefully new friendship...

[ping66]

Lets be clear, under the rules of Amatuer status you cannot win a dime in cash. You can only win prizes valued at no more thAN $999.99 If you accept any CASH you lose your amatuer status. That even includes the $5 you win against your buddys.
All it takes is one call to the RCGA and these guys would lose there status.......

[mjf]

As far as I know, the tournament is open to anyone... A couple of pro's could team up and enter if they wanted. I don't see why a couple of buddies who happen to be amongst the best golfers in the city shouldn't be able to team up.

I played in two tournaments this year and I had absolutely no expectations that I'd win either of them. Why would I enter if I don't think I can win? My goal was simply to play the best I could. Ideally, I would have played my best and then I could see how far away from the top I was which would give me an idea of how much work I've got ahead of me if I want to do better next year.

What I found most interesting about the Survivor Challenge, as jvincent mentioned above, was seeing where McGee and Koski were putting their tee shots. It's clear that one of their biggest advantages is the distance they can hit the ball. I suspect they had irons to all of the Par-5's where we had fairway woods (at best) in most cases. So... time to start hitting the weights!

[justsomeguy]

Lets be clear, under the rules of Amatuer status you cannot win a dime in cash. You can only win prizes valued at no more thAN $999.99 If you accept any CASH you lose your amatuer status. That even includes the $5 you win against your buddys.
All it takes is one call to the RCGA and these guys would lose there status.......

Incidental gambling is acceptable:

Acceptable Forms of Gambling
There is no objection to informal gambling or wagering among individual golfers or teams of golfers when it is incidental to the game. It is not practicable to define informal gambling or wagering precisely, but features that would be consistent with such gambling or wagering include:

• the players in general know each other;
• participation in the gambling or wagering is optional and is limited to the players;
• the sole source of all money won by the players is advanced by the players; and
• the amount of money involved is not generally considered to be excessive.

As for the status of scrambles with prizes/cash, I would point out that when you play in these events you are - strictly speaking - not playing golf.

[Sakuraba]

The duo referenced is certainly not unbeatable. I can think of a few area amateur golfers whose combined handicap would be well below scratch. I think there is also a HUGE difference between winning $1000 bucks on a lucky weekend and making a career out of golf. In my opinion, these guys are definately amateurs and they deserve our kudos and not our derision. No offense Shushu, but I think these no handicap scrambles should be treated like the Citizen tournament, don't expect to win--indeed, don't enter, unless you've got the game.

[sensfan63]

Now to my problem.....

The score that won the event was -19. Very good score. Just over a birdie every 2 holes. There was some grumbling in the back of the room. Turns out the twosome is well known around the area for being really good golfers. They had won the Sun Scramble Open championship the last 6 years in a row. Beating the likes of Kevin Haime and other pros playing in the same tourney. No doubt they are great and compliment each other very well for each others games. I heard that one of them played on the CPGA for a year. But there were 72 other twosomes that go into these tourneys with the hope that they may have a chance to try and win something. The twosome that won took home Roughly 6-7 prizes that night. Low score total and low score on 2 out of the 4 nine's, best score on a hole (Eagle of course) plus other prizes (I'm sure there may have been a door prize in there too.) Well worth the entrance fee.

I for one don't know how I feel about this. In one hand, I of course try to find a complimentary player and try to win these events just like them. I unfortunatly am not that great, nor do I know anyone else that plays that great either to get a score like that.

On the other hand, these guy's seem like "professional" amateurs. Putting a bad taste in me wanting to spend any money on tourney's like this. Although I don't think this tourney was for any charity, it still feels a bit unfair to me.

I guess from now on I am going to be asking if they are signed up to play in tourney's before I enter one from now on. Really there is no point. Who's going to beat them??? And knowing your playing for 2nd place before teeing it off would suck.

They could be very nice guy's. And a pleasure to play with.

Just my humble opinion of course.

I don't know where to start, so I'll ask this - what were the registration guidelines?

Also, I have to highlight one thing that you said - that "it still feels a bit unfair to me." After seeing various viewpoints in the thread, do you still feel this way?

[goley]

If you dont want to play with the big boys than stay at home or stick to handicap/flight tournaments. Im pretty sure that they played in this tournament last year and didnt win, as well as many other tournaments they eneter. As for Blueman, you think that Koski and Mcgee make $10 000 a year in scramble tournaments, give your head a shake. I guess you know this first hand because.... and as far as ratting people out to the "governing boards", give me a break. Im sure that the 75 teams that were playing in the event were trying to make some money, are you gonna rat on them aswell. Im pretty sure Smith Falls had a four man scramble where some team won some money..... all it takes is one call to the RCGA.

Give me a break to all the complainers out there. If you dont want to play in these types of tournament because you dont think you are good enough, then dont. But come on, ratting people out thats weak.

[justsomeguy]

If anyone thinks that the OVGA or the RCGA is completely unaware of these scramble events, rest assured that they are not completely stupid.

A scramble is not golf. If its not golf, the RCGA doesn't really care about it.

[BC MIST]

If anyone thinks that the OVGA or the RCGA is completely unaware of these scramble events, rest assured that they are not completely stupid.

Very true. Don't be surprised if the blind eye of the ruling bodies, soon becomes 20-20. Historically, we went through this locally about 30 years ago when "calcutta's," and various other $$$$ tournaments were 'raided' with the loss of amateur status the result.

Add to this, amateurs who teach and accept payment for that service.

[Kilroy]

What about the Acceptable Forms of Gambling as outlined above? Does this not allow for amateurs to play for a pot of winnings collected from the players in the event?

When we looked into this for our local amateur tour we were assured that players playing skins etc were not playing as pros and in no danger of risking losing amateur status. How would this be any different?

My take on it (at the time) was that prize money from a sponsor was the issue at hand. ie: The players are not risking any of their own money if they don't win. Like the Can Tour, nationwide, and smaller Mini pro tours.

[Shushu]

I believe there were no professionals allowed to play, but I'm not to sure. Jvincent and MJF would probably know more than me on that.

I'm still confused about how I feel about it. There is a piece of me that thinks that it's a bit unfair. I have never met these guy's. They are obviousl;y well known. All I know is that they are very good players. Like a few people have said here, there is a healthy competition to having a great team in front of you beating you all the time. I guess I now know there are guy's that play this well in these "fun" tournaments. As a door prize one of the guy's I played with in the other 2 some won a really nice pair of Oakley Sunglasses. Those 2 guy's shot about +30 this time out and he still won something nice. There is always that point.

I guess I have to start thinking about whether or not I like not winning. I don't buy lottery tickets because I know I'm going to lose. I bought a Cheo Lottery Ticket with the full intention of someone handing over the keys to the Grand Prize house to me. I don't enter competitions to lose either. That being said kudos to the 2 guy's that won it. They do deserve it as they were clearly the best 2 man team out there. Maybe they aren't the "best" amateur golfers in the area as someone else pointed out...but as a team...there doesn't seem much better out there.

I don't know where to start, so I'll ask this - what were the registration guidelines?

Also, I have to highlight one thing that you said - that "it still feels a bit unfair to me." After seeing various viewpoints in the thread, do you still feel this way?

[mikelaurin]

Bottom line if youdont feel compete dont play, 75 teams just make side bets to cover your entry fee thats what I do sometimes you win sometimes you dont

[Shushu]

I agree. I've only been playing for about 15 years. In that time I've entered into maybe a handfull of 2 man tournaments. I've never seen that type of domination personally. Can you tell me of any other tourney's that these 2 have entered that they weren't the favorites going into it? You are absolutely right...I think for a while I'm going to stick to handicap type of tourney's. That outing was truely not in my league.

The duo referenced is certainly not unbeatable. I can think of a few area amateur golfers whose combined handicap would be well below scratch. I think there is also a HUGE difference between winning $1000 bucks on a lucky weekend and making a career out of golf. In my opinion, these guys are definately amateurs and they deserve our kudos and not our derision. No offense Shushu, but I think these no handicap scrambles should be treated like the Citizen tournament, don't expect to win--indeed, don't enter, unless you've got the game.

[Shushu]

Going into these things I'm sure a ot of people considered -10 a realistic number to win the event. I think I heard -11 won it last year. Maybe adding another 9 holes into the mix should account for something more as well. I guess your on the "it's not about the fun your having side" like me on this subject.

Bottom line if youdont feel compete dont play, 75 teams just make side bets to cover your entry fee thats what I do sometimes you win sometimes you dont

[BC MIST]

What about the Acceptable Forms of Gambling as outlined above? Does this not allow for amateurs to play for a pot of winnings collected from the players in the event?

When we looked into this for our local amateur tour we were assured that players playing skins etc were not playing as pros and in no danger of risking losing amateur status. How would this be any different?

After consulting those much more knowledgeable than me, hopefully your questions will be answered.