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  1. #1
    7 Iron andis39 is on a distinguished road andis39's Avatar
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    watching a opponents line of put

    when two puts fall in simiar locations, is the player not playing first able to stand directly behind the other player in order to read their line?

    If they can not stand there when are the able to move in to view the line of put?

    What penaltys would apply? as I have only found this under educate.

    thanks for your help.

  2. #2
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    If the person who is playing the stroke is your partner, it is a penalty.

    14-2. Assistance
    In making a stroke, a player must not:
    a. Accept physical assistance or protection from the elements; or
    b. Allow his caddie, his partner or his partner’s caddie to
    position himself on or close to an extension of the line of
    play or the line of putt behind the ball.
    If the player making the putt is not your partner there is no rule, but it is bad etiquette. Once he plays the putt you can move to see the line.
    Not fat anymore. Need to get better at golf now!

  3. #3
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    The penalty to the player is loss of hole in matchplay or two strokes in strokeplay.

  4. #4
    1 Iron PapaPat is on a distinguished road
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    Players are often surprised that it is teammates who are not allowed to take a read rather than opponents. The rule was re-emphasised in a new decision this year. The key clarification is that in a Four-Ball situation the penalty indicated by AAA is applied to both players. As stated already if it is an opponent, no penalty, just bad etiquette. If an opponent is doing this to you, tell him/her to move.

    Here is the new decision:

    30-3f/13 Partner Stands on Extension of Player’s Line of Play Behind Ball
    Q. A and B are partners in a four-ball competition. A’s ball is on the putting green 30 feet from the hole, and B’s ball is 20 feet from the hole on a similar line. To assist him with his own putt, B stands on an extension of the line of putt behind A’s ball while A putts. What is the ruling?
    A. A was in breach of Rule 14-2b by allowing his partner, B, to position himself on or close to an extension of the line of putt behind the ball while he made his stroke. As A’s breach assisted B, B also incurred the same penalty (Rules 30-3f and 31-8).
    In match play, Side A-B loses the hole.
    In stroke play, A incurs a penalty of two strokes and B incurs the same penalty. (New)

  5. #5
    Singles Match Play Champ 2010 Ruskie is on a distinguished road
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    Interesting, I've learned something new today. I always thought it was ok in team play, since partners are allowed to help each other. In fact, me and my partner did exactly that during Sun Scramble, and we were by no means alone in this.

    I'm curious, however, as to why this case is different from other "assistance" situations between partners, like giving advice, club selection, green reading, etc.

    Cheers,
    Alex.

  6. #6
    1 Iron PapaPat is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruskie View Post
    Interesting, I've learned something new today. I always thought it was ok in team play, since partners are allowed to help each other. In fact, me and my partner did exactly that during Sun Scramble, and we were by no means alone in this.

    I'm curious, however, as to why this case is different from other "assistance" situations between partners, like giving advice, club selection, green reading, etc.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Doesn't everyone do this in a Scramble? Scramble rules are outside the RofG in many respects. If you think of all of this as being just an extension and clarification of 14-2 posted by jvincent above, the purpose of 14-2 is to qualify the types of assistance teammates are allowed to provide one another. While I don't know exactly why this and not other things, I can assure you that all this lining up and stepping in and out can have a very negative effect on the pace of play.

  7. #7
    Team Match Play Champ 2011 quinner is on a distinguished road quinner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaPat View Post
    Doesn't everyone do this in a Scramble? Scramble rules are outside the RofG in many respects. If you think of all of this as being just an extension and clarification of 14-2 posted by jvincent above, the purpose of 14-2 is to qualify the types of assistance teammates are allowed to provide one another. While I don't know exactly why this and not other things, I can assure you that all this lining up and stepping in and out can have a very negative effect on the pace of play.
    I am not sure that 100% correct. I think the rules don't necessary "apply" because the majority of the people are there for fun and in most cases charity. I would even go as far to say that most people playing in scrambles don't know the rules and there fore are unaware of the breach. However the rules of golf DO apply, except you are picking the best shot of the four taken. I would think that it would be up to the tournament committee to determine which rules would not apply to the tournament.

  8. #8
    1 Iron PapaPat is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by quinner View Post
    I am not sure that 100% correct. I think the rules don't necessary "apply" because the majority of the people are there for fun and in most cases charity. I would even go as far to say that most people playing in scrambles don't know the rules and there fore are unaware of the breach. However the rules of golf DO apply, except you are picking the best shot of the four taken. I would think that it would be up to the tournament committee to determine which rules would not apply to the tournament.
    I think that Scrables are great for type of event you describe. And there must of course be some structure to the activity. So, maybe you are right, and I'm only 99% correct. Now that you know that teammates are not allowed to get a read from one another, why don't you insist to the tournament committee that this rule be strictly enforced at your next Scramble outing? The only rule that I have is that they not be referred to as BestBalls.

  9. #9
    1 Iron PapaPat is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by quinner View Post
    I am not sure that 100% correct. I think the rules don't necessary "apply" because the majority of the people are there for fun and in most cases charity. I would even go as far to say that most people playing in scrambles don't know the rules and there fore are unaware of the breach. However the rules of golf DO apply, except you are picking the best shot of the four taken. I would think that it would be up to the tournament committee to determine which rules would not apply to the tournament.
    33-1. Conditions; Waiving Rule

    The Committee must establish the conditions under which a competition is to be played.
    The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.

    At some point you are no longer playing golf but some other golf-based game.

  10. #10
    Singles Match Play Champ 2010 Ruskie is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaPat View Post
    At some point you are no longer playing golf but some other golf-based game.
    Ah, you stepped on a sore spot there. I don't understand why some people insist that if you're not observing every rule in the book - you're not playing golf. The essence of the game is still "hit the ball, find the ball, hit the ball again", just as it was all those years ago on Scottish pastures. Were they not playing golf back then?

    Would you consider rec hockey "not hockey" because body checking is not allowed? Or maybe in some leagues it's allowed, but some of the pro rules are not enforced?

    To me, rules are there to ensure a level playing field for all participants. In a scramble event, if the rules are modified, no matter how much, but are still observed, I don't see how this changes the game to "some other golf-based game".

    I realize you started the sentence with "at some point", and if I misunderstood your meaning, I apologize. I just heard that line many times before, especially on these forums, and it irks me to no end.

    Cheers,
    Alex.

  11. #11
    1 Iron PapaPat is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruskie View Post
    Ah, you stepped on a sore spot there. I don't understand why some people insist that if you're not observing every rule in the book - you're not playing golf. The essence of the game is still "hit the ball, find the ball, hit the ball again", just as it was all those years ago on Scottish pastures. Were they not playing golf back then?

    Would you consider rec hockey "not hockey" because body checking is not allowed? Or maybe in some leagues it's allowed, but some of the pro rules are not enforced?

    To me, rules are there to ensure a level playing field for all participants. In a scramble event, if the rules are modified, no matter how much, but are still observed, I don't see how this changes the game to "some other golf-based game".

    I realize you started the sentence with "at some point", and if I misunderstood your meaning, I apologize. I just heard that line many times before, especially on these forums, and it irks me to no end.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    As you say, an old discussion. I think that in order to make any sense at all, forums like this need to be based on the official Rules of Golf. If you do not regard the RofG as a universal essential of the game, and the topic of this and other "Rules" forums, then we will just disagree.

    Having said that, I have no problem with Scrambles, Skin games, Bingo Bango Bongo, and all of the "other golf based games". I'm sure that there are many who would regard rec hockey, road hockey, skills challenges, shootouts and ringette as "not hockey".

  12. #12
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaPat View Post
    As you say, an old discussion. I think that in order to make any sense at all, forums like this need to be based on the official Rules of Golf. If you do not regard the RofG as a universal essential of the game, and the topic of this and other "Rules" forums, then we will just disagree.
    The Rules of Golf exist for the formats described in Rules 2,3, 29 to 32 and Scrambles are not included in this list. Therefore, as stated above, it is essential that the Committee outline beforehand, what rules are applicable to the Scramble format.

    Example: RCGA rules govern all play except as modified below.
    1. The ball must be dropped through the green, or placed on the putting green, within 6" of where the original ball lay.
    2. Players may stand on an extension of a partner's line of putt.....

    ETC.

    Without this, what happened in the Sun Scramble was a two stroke penalty rather than a completely acceptable strategy.

  13. #13
    1 Iron PapaPat is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    The Rules of Golf exist for the formats described in Rules 2,3, 29 to 32 and Scrambles are not included in this list. Therefore, as stated above, it is essential that the Committee outline beforehand, what rules are applicable to the Scramble format.

    Example: RCGA rules govern all play except as modified below.
    1. The ball must be dropped through the green, or placed on the putting green, within 6" of where the original ball lay.
    2. Players may stand on an extension of a partner's line of putt.....
    ETC.

    Without this, what happened in the Sun Scramble was a two stroke penalty rather than a completely acceptable strategy.
    But 33-1 clearly states that the "committee" does not have the authority to do that. I thought we were talking about the Rules of Golf under which the very first rule is as follows:

    1-1. General

    The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.

    By this definition, when you are talking about Scrambles, you are no longer talking about "The Game of Golf".

  14. #14
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaPat View Post
    But 33-1 clearly states that the "committee" does not have the authority to do that. I thought we were talking about the Rules of Golf under which the very first rule is as follows:

    1-1. General

    The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.

    By this definition, when you are talking about Scrambles, you are no longer talking about "The Game of Golf".
    All that I am saying is that IF Scramble is the format, in order to avoid problems, the organizers better describe to the participants what "rules" are going to be used to provide the "structure" you referred to above. While they may use the Rules of Golf as their guide, modifications will be made to suit their wishes. It's still not Golf. We are on the same page.

  15. #15
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaPat View Post
    By this definition, when you are talking about Scrambles, you are no longer talking about "The Game of Golf".
    There is 'The Game of Golf' and there are games which people refer to as 'golf'.

    Someone invented the term 'flog' - similar but not the same.

    I don't have real problem with people raising questions about the rules of their version of flog providing they recognise that the only ones that apply are those made by the committee in charge. If they adopt the Rules of Golf it makes life easier but the USGA & R&A obviously decided there were too many variations to be bothered with.

  16. #16
    1 Iron PapaPat is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    All that I am saying is that IF Scramble is the format, in order to avoid problems, the organizers better describe to the participants what "rules" are going to be used to provide the "structure" you referred to above. While they may use the Rules of Golf as their guide, modifications will be made to suit their wishes. It's still not Golf. We are on the same page.
    We usually are.

  17. #17
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that people, when playing a variant of the game of golf, take exception to people who would not call it golf.

    Scrambles are a fun game based on golf, but the rules used for scrambles are not the rules of golf. I can certainly get behind those who would put an asterix beside the name of the game.

    This forum is for discussion of the rules of golf. Surely variations of the game will be disussed, but the distinction should be made that "playing that way" does indeed mean playing a game based on golf rather than the real game of golf. Afrer all it is important that people not be confused by the rules for a scramble (like improving your lie) and believe that it would apply to all games based on golf.

    I see no reason for that to "irk" anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruskie View Post
    Ah, you stepped on a sore spot there. I don't understand why some people insist that if you're not observing every rule in the book - you're not playing golf.

    I realize you started the sentence with "at some point", and if I misunderstood your meaning, I apologize. I just heard that line many times before, especially on these forums, and it irks me to no end.
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  18. #18
    Team Match Play Champ 2011 quinner is on a distinguished road quinner's Avatar
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    I have never played in the Sun Scramble; does anyone know if they hand out a rules book / sheet for that tournament? If not it sounds like they should be if the majority of the teams are breaking the rules of golf; if indeed their intentions are to play under the rules of golf.

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