Lift-clean-and-place

[NoBack]

Gary
I'm in need of a little clarification of the "local rules".
If you are playing in a tournament and they call it "lift clean and place throughout", are you allowed to go from rough to fairway or even rough to green under this local rule. Is there a set amount of relief you can take? Is it one club? 12 inches? 6 inches?

thanks

[BC MIST]

Gary
I'm in need of a little clarification of the "local rules".
If you are playing in a tournament and they call it "lift clean and place throughout", are you allowed to go from rough to fairway or even rough to green under this local rule. Is there a set amount of relief you can take? Is it one club? 12 inches? 6 inches?

thanks

Check Appendix 3 (b), page 108 of the latest rule book.

The amount that you are allowed to move the ball is determined by your rules committee. It also determines whether LC&P is employed from just the fairway or from the rough, too.

If you are allowed to LC&P "through the green," it means just that. Fairway to rough or rough to fairway, however, as the putting green, hazards, and the teeing ground are not part of "through the green," you may not move the ball on to the putting green.

[NoBack]

Thanks BC MIST

[Gary Hill]

Winter Rules" or "preferred lies" means absolutely nothing on its own.

There should be a posting in the pro shop with the actual text of the Local Rule.

[PapaPat]

BC Mist, there is nothing in Appendix I that allows LC&P through the green other than "on a closely mown area through the green" or a more restricted area. The practice of allowing LC&P, through the green, is not contemplated by the Rules of Golf and scores under this condition should technically not be included in any handicap system.

[LobWedge]

BC Mist, there is nothing in Appendix I that allows LC&P through the green other than "on a closely mown area through the green" or a more restricted area. The practice of allowing LC&P, through the green, is not contemplated by the Rules of Golf and scores under this condition should technically not be included in any handicap system.

Wow, talk about an old thread!

True, there is no provision in Appendix 1 for LCP through the green, however there is a provision in Part B-4a that allows the committee to provide relief for an embedded ball that's not in a closely mown area, by following the correct dropping procedure.

[BC MIST]

BC Mist, there is nothing in Appendix I that allows LC&P through the green other than "on a closely mown area through the green" or a more restricted area. The practice of allowing LC&P, through the green, is not contemplated by the Rules of Golf and scores under this condition should technically not be included in any handicap system.

I find it interesting that the definition of preferred lies that is found on page 9 of the RCGA Handicap Manual makes no mention of distinguishing between "fairway" or "rough." But it does refer to "adverse course conditions that are so general throughout the course that improving the lie of the ball in a specified way would promote fair play or help protect the course." Would this not then include the above, that is, "through the green?" Scores thus made ARE acceptable for handicap purposes, UNLESS the committee chooses not to have them count.

[justsomeguy]

Wow, talk about an old thread!

True, there is no provision in Appendix 1 for LCP through the green, however there is a provision in Part B-4a that allows the committee to provide relief for an embedded ball that's not in a closely mown area, by following the correct dropping procedure.

Part B-4b allows for "lift, clean and replace" through the green:

b. Cleaning Ball Conditions, such as extreme wetness causing significant amounts of mud to adhere to the ball, may be such that permission to lift, clean and replace the ball would be appropriate. In these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended:
"(Specify area) a ball may be lifted, cleaned and replaced without penalty.
Note: The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under this Local Rule.

[PapaPat]

I am new to this site and got here by Googling LC&P, through the green which may explain the ressurection of an old thread. I may just stick around. As to the point in question, the item on page 9 does in turn refer to Appendix I of the RofG and Section 7 of the Handicap Manual, for clarification and support, Both only contemplate LC&P on closely mown areas. Hence, games played under LC&P through the green are outside of the Rules of Golf and do not qualify to be entered into the RCGA Handicap system 5-1d Hdcp. Man. I found it a bit loose in your original post that you said that it was just up to some committee. Interestingly, it is a current battle that I am fighting at my home course and the original reason for doing the Google search.

[Kilroy]

Welcome to the forum PapaPat.

What are the positions taken by the adversaries in your LC&P battle? This could be an interesting discussion.

[gbower]

A few years ago one of the PGA tournaments was LC & P through the green and I watched someone drop onto the fringe and made the putt.

[PapaPat]

I'm afraid it is not all that interesting. Some combination of a Pro, the Superintendent and a few good old boys are reluctant to accept the fact that LC&P through the green is not appropriate because it is against the Rules of Golf and our local rules which I authored. They offer no support for their position other than this is what they have always done. Since I am relatively new, the onus is on me to support my contention. Fortunately I am good at that kind of stuff. During the process, in addition to finding this interesting site, I have a unequivical statement from the Tournament Director of the GAO that they would never authorize LC&P through the green for any of their events, and I found an excellent article on Prefered Lies and the other related topics in this thread at the Oregon Golf Association site http://www.oga.org/index.php/rules/o...detail/C68/312 .

[justsomeguy]

A few years ago one of the PGA tournaments was LC & P through the green and I watched someone drop onto the fringe and made the putt.

That would be "lift, clean & drop" - not LCP. I'm assuming that was for an embedded ball, which is OK by the rules.

I think much of the confusion comes from the fact that most golfers think"lift, clean and drop", "lift, clean and place" and "lift, clean and replace" are all the same thing. They're not.

"Lift, clean and drop" is self-explanatory. True "lift, clean and "place" in essence legalizes "stick-handling" - i.e., place a ball anywhere within a specified distance from its original location no closer to the hole. As pointed out, the Rules allow a Local Rule for true LCP on a closely-mown area only.

OTOH, "lift, clean and replace" means you can clean your ball and then replace it on the exact same spot - i.e., no stick-handling, no specified distances, etc. This provision CAN be extended through the green by a Local Rule. Most people also call this LCP, but it really isn't. Maybe it should be called LCR.

[gbower]

My bad it was lift, clean and place, brain fart

[BC MIST]

I am new to this site and got here by Googling LC&P, through the green which may explain the ressurection of an old thread. I may just stick around. As to the point in question, the item on page 9 does in turn refer to Appendix I of the RofG and Section 7 of the Handicap Manual, for clarification and support, Both only contemplate LC&P on closely mown areas. Hence, games played under LC&P through the green are outside of the Rules of Golf and do not qualify to be entered into the RCGA Handicap system 5-1d Hdcp. Man. I found it a bit loose in your original post that you said that it was just up to some committee. Interestingly, it is a current battle that I am fighting at my home course and the original reason for doing the Google search.

This was a good reminder to me that LC and replace is permitted TTG on areas that are not closely mown.

The committee to which you refer is not just "some" committee, but the committee at the course that is in charge of determining local rules, and that committee may or may not consult with the club's handicap committee. See Handicap Manual, Section 7-1, Page 40.

[PapaPat]

I can see that the sequence of my sentences may have been misleading. BC MIST in your original post you say,

"The amount that you are allowed to move the ball is determined by your rules committee. It also determines whether LC&P is employed from just the fairway or from the rough, too."

I do not believe that this "rules committee" can determine this. Appendix I sets out quite clearly that LC&P can only extend to closely mown areas. A Local Rule allowing greater latitude would be an invalid local rule.

A game played under such a local rule would be played outside the RofG, therefore not "acceptable" for entry into the RCGA Handicap system regardless of what committee, handicap or otherwise, decides. All references in the Handicap Manual also use or point to this same limiting Appendix I text.

Looking for some loophole or vagueness that allows a given committee the freedom to create or retain their own game is exactly the type of mindset that I find myself dealing with at my home club. To me it is quite clear what the Rules and the Handicap System are saying in this and most other areas.

[Golf_Bob]

Today we were playing under the local rule of LCP. My second shot landed in a sand bunker significantly filled with water, although sufficient area to drop the ball. My question is can you rack the sand prior to placing the ball into a dryer area of the sand bunker, no closer to the pin?

[gbower]

With mark, lift, clean and place you wouldn't be able to do that in a bunker. To get relief from casual water in a bunker you would have to drop the ball within the bunker, no closer to the hole and you can't rake the bunker first.

[BC MIST]

With mark, lift, clean and place you wouldn't be able to do that in a bunker. To get relief from casual water in a bunker you would have to drop the ball within the bunker, no closer to the hole and you can't rake the bunker first.

In addition to Gerry's ruling, it may not be possible to find a spot in the bunker that gets both your stance and the ball position, out of the casual water. The rules allow you to drop the ball where you may get "maximum relief available" even though you may still be in CW. In other words, drop the ball in shallower water, but not nearer the hole.

Plus, if you cannot find relief in the bunker, you may drop it outside the bunker, under a penalty of one stroke, keeping the point where the ball originally lay between you and the hole and with no limit as to how far you may go to drop it.

[Golf_Bob]

Thanks this message hit the mark