When are fast greens unfair?

[Kiwi]

Played the 16th at Nation (par 3 down hill) and it was more challenging than usual. We all hit the green on our first shot but one of us hit to within about 8 feet from the pin (back middle) just to the right and past the pin. Tough birdie on a good day. By the time we got to the green his ball had rolled (not due to spin) to about 10 feet below and to the left. When he putted the ball almost made it to the hole, and then rolled back down the hill about 12 feet below the hole. His second put earned the same result. He finally sank a 12 bogey from below the hole. The other two, me included, all putted from well below the hole, only to miss and have the ball roll back past where we had started. My question is how "fair" is this, either as a pin placement, grooming or perhaps the green itself. Anyone playing there knows it is a tricky green, but when does it go from "fair" to the average golfer to unfair, or worse yet a "trick" hole, when you have to hit past the hole and let the ball roll back into the cup. I have seen a few PGA events over the years where similar things have occurred and the announcers and commentators have been very harsh with their words, and these are the pros... just wondering? BTW this is NOT a dig at Nation. Love the course, and it was in excellent condition, despite the heavy rain on Thursday.

[sensfan63]

Played the 16th at Nation (par 3 down hill) and it was more challenging than usual. We all hit the green on our first shot but one of us hit to within about 8 feet from the pin (back middle) just to the right and past the pin. Tough birdie on a good day. By the time we got to the green his ball had rolled (not due to spin) to about 10 feet below and to the left. When he putted the ball almost made it to the hole, and then rolled back down the hill about 12 feet below the hole. His second put earned the same result. He finally sank a 12 bogey from below the hole. The other two, me included, all putted from well below the hole, only to miss and have the ball roll back past where we had started. My question is how "fair" is this, either as a pin placement, grooming or perhaps the green itself. Anyone playing there knows it is a tricky green, but when does it go from "fair" to the average golfer to unfair, or worse yet a "trick" hole, when you have to hit past the hole and let the ball roll back into the cup. I have seen a few PGA events over the years where similar things have occurred and the announcers and commentators have been very harsh with their words, and these are the pros... just wondering? BTW this is NOT a dig at Nation. Love the course, and it was in excellent condition, despite the heavy rain on Thursday.

Unless the pin was on top of a ridge, and the players weren't getting the ball all the way up the ridge, it sounds like it was a stupid pin placement.

Anytime you have a situation where the ball rolls uphill to the hole, and then comes back down towards you, someone wasn't thinking.

[BBKing]

I agree with Sensfan, this is a case of whomever set the pin having no clue. I used to play in a men's league out west and one night, almost no one recorded better than 5 putts on one par 3 due to the pin placement being on a severe slope. Also, once on the "old" Gatineau, I had a 25 footer uphill that rimmed the cup and came back to my feet. Never played there again.

[goliath]

Ya that hole at nation is tricky even with an low pin placement. Maybe something they need to look in to for next season among many other things. Used to play nation every other week but got pretty annoyed with many holes and conditions around the green.

[BC MIST]

IMO, any slope severe enough for the ball's speed to accelerate due to gravity only, is unfair.

[holeinone]

ya that green is total bs. The whole green is severely sloped to the front. Green #10 is pretty bad too but not as bad as #16. It took me 5 putts once to get it in after I hit my shot inside 15 feet.