Lift ball from green without marking

[djb]

What is the ruling if a player lifts there ball from the green without marking it, places it back where they thought it to be and then putts the ball.

[Kilroy]

20-1. Lifting and Marking

The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to be replaced. If it is not marked, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and the ball must be replaced. If it is not replaced, the player incurs the general penalty for breach of this Rule, but there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.

[Kilroy]

Looks like 20-1 (above) is for generally replacing anywhere. On the green seems to be a bit different.

Rule 16. The Putting Green
16-1. General
b. Lifting and Cleaning Ball
A ball on the putting green may be lifted and, if desired, cleaned. The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted, and the ball must be replaced (see Rule 20-1).
Penalty for Breach of Rule 16-1:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

[hackzaw]

On a related (but different) note, if a player marks his ball on a green and proceeds to putt with the mark still on the ground, is there any rule against that?

[justsomeguy]

On a related (but different) note, if a player marks his ball on a green and proceeds to putt with the mark still on the ground, is there any rule against that?

He could be in breach of Rule 8-2b.

When the player's ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.

After he marks his ball, does he lift it and then replace it?

[hackzaw]

He could be in breach of Rule 8-2b.

When the player's ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.

After he marks his ball, does he lift it and then replace it?

Yes - he marks his ball, lifts it, waits his turn to putt, places it but doesn't lift his mark.

I've actually seen this in reality, but it's always been in a format where, in a two man team, only one score was needed and the first player had already holed out and therefore the second players score wasn't necessary. It was really just a casual kind of action whereby, the player would just throw their ball down without picking up their mark, putt it without even really lining it up.

But let's say someone was in a serious event (like a club championship). Let's say their first putt get's them to basically tap in range, but for fear of missing it and stepping on someone's line, they mark it. Then, when it's their turn, they throw the ball down right in front of their mark, and just tap it in without lifting their coin. Permitted? I wouldn't say they were using their mark as a line of their putt so to speak.

[Kilroy]

I'd agree, but I have never seen anyone do that.

[djb]

Thanks for your timely response Kilroy.

[Ruskie]

In a two-man scramble you have to mark the spot somehow for the second player to place his ball. Having just played in Ottawa Sun Scramble, we always had the first guy put a coin about 6 inches from the ball. I suppose any such mark could be considered an alignment aid, but I don't see how to avoid it.

[BC MIST]

Looks like 20-1 (above) is for generally replacing anywhere. On the green seems to be a bit different.

Rule 16. The Putting Green
16-1. General
b. Lifting and Cleaning Ball
A ball on the putting green may be lifted and, if desired, cleaned. The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted, and the ball must be replaced (see Rule 20-1).
Penalty for Breach of Rule 16-1:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

Dan. 16-1b references Rule 20-1 where the penalty for lifting without marking is 1 stroke only. For all other infractions under 16-1, the penalty is, as you stated, 2 strokes.

[justsomeguy]

Yes - he marks his ball, lifts it, waits his turn to putt, places it but doesn't lift his mark.

I would think he's OK, since the purpose of the mark is obviously for replacing his ball. Others may have a different opinion though...

[justsomeguy]

In a two-man scramble you have to mark the spot somehow for the second player to place his ball. Having just played in Ottawa Sun Scramble, we always had the first guy put a coin about 6 inches from the ball. I suppose any such mark could be considered an alignment aid, but I don't see how to avoid it.

If you mark to the side instead of behind the ball (which I believe is what most people do in a scramble), then you should be fine.

[djb]

Dan. 16-1b references Rule 20-1 where the penalty for lifting without marking is 1 stroke only. For all other infractions under 16-1, the penalty is, as you stated, 2 strokes.

Okay...so now I'm confused. Did I incur a one or two stroke penalty?

[LobWedge]

In a two-man scramble you have to mark the spot somehow for the second player to place his ball. Having just played in Ottawa Sun Scramble, we always had the first guy put a coin about 6 inches from the ball. I suppose any such mark could be considered an alignment aid, but I don't see how to avoid it.

Scrambles aren't golf.

[LobWedge]

Okay...so now I'm confused. Did I incur a one or two stroke penalty?

One.

[djb]

One.

Thanks LobWedge... after reading it a few more times, I had come to the same conclusion, but it's always nice to have someone else reaffirm what I had thought.

[leftylucas]

What if you mark your ball then lift your marker without putting the ball down. Same penalty since you do not know where to put your ball down?