Johnson's penalty still the hottest topic

[sensfan63]

Yup. I was never in doubt and was dumbfounded when Ferhety kept going in about the no-lip thing.

1 There is definately a BIG lip.
2 Where is it written that a bunker even needs a lip?

I give up. This is just silly.

Hence the thread title!

[sensfan63]

Sorry, but I am one of those that looks at it and sees an obvious bunker.

remove the hundreds and hundreds of people, and I'm closer to agreeing with you.

[mpare]

I never said that "Loads and loads of BS" was directed at me. What I sought to learn by posing my question was how that statement, vague and general as it is, actually advanced your argument. I still fail to understand how it does.

I think I'll hold back on the sarcasm and leave you with this...

"Loads and loads of BS" referred to the entirety of the Johnson situation, and was not a shot at you personally. I'm not sure how you saw it that way, but whatever.

[big easy]

Not excusing the guy. But please, don't tell me the following rule is clear and its application was obvious on the day of the tournament with hundreds of people surrounding DJ. Were the spectators considered loose impediments! At a very least, it is a ridiculous rule. Imagine a tournament decided because the player ended up in a deep footprint or tire tracks!!!...

1. Bunkers: All areas of the course that were designed and built as sand bunkers (DJ had to ask Pete Dye to make sure if they were designed as such?) will be played as bunkers (hazards), whether or not they have been raked. This will mean that many bunkers positioned outside of the ropes, as well as some areas of bunkers inside the ropes, close to the rope line, will likely include numerous footprints, heel prints and tire tracks (???) during the play of the Championship. Such irregularities of surface are a part of the game and no free relief will be available from these conditions.

Note 1: The sand area in front, left and behind No. 5 green in the lateral water hazard is NOT a bunker (do not move stones).

Note 2: Where necessary, blue dots define the margin of a bunker. (I believe that a couple of cans of spray paint could have avoided any controversies)

[sensfan63]

I never said that "Loads and loads of BS" was directed at me. What I sought to learn by posing my question was how that statement, vague and general as it is, actually advanced your argument. I still fail to understand how it does.

I wasn't aware that I was being graded on my remarks. It was a random comment. Have you made random comments in your lifetime? C'mon.

[Kilroy]

Perhaps a couple of hundred.

Note 2: Where necessary, blue dots define the margin of a bunker. (I believe that a couple of cans of spray paint could have avoided any controversies)

[mpare]

I was not particularly enamoured with the design of a course that deems most of these sandy areas to be bunkers. Once that decision is made, though, players are expected to play out of them regardless of their condition. Given the universality of that requirement, I fail to see how DJ was wrongly done by any more so than any other player who might have found himself in the same situation during the tournament. In the end, it is up to the players to ensure that they are in compliance with the rules if he is unsure of situation in which he finds himself. That he failed to do so is unfortunate, but no more so than other players who have experienced similar misfortune in the past. The PGA Tour can hardly be blamed for that.

Not excusing the guy. But please, don't tell me the following rule is clear and its application was obvious on the day of the tournament with hundreds of people surrounding DJ. Were the spectators considered loose impediments! At a very least, it is a ridiculous rule. Imagine a tournament decided because the player ended up in a deep footprint or tire tracks!!!...

...

[mpare]

I was not grading you at all but looking to understand your argument. That's it. Nothing more.

I wasn't aware that I was being graded on my remarks. It was a random comment. Have you made random comments in your lifetime? C'mon.

[big easy]

Perhaps a couple of hundred.

Then, I believe the PGA of America had enough budget to cover these expenses...

Even if DJ was right or wrong, should have double-checked with the official, judging by the discussions on this topic, ensuring that your corporation's image and reputation are saved harmless by avoiding this type of controversy, is certainly priceless...

The whole idea of penalizing a player by having him to play out of a footprint or tire track is plain stupid, whether it is inside or outside the ropes...which brings me to the "divot rule", but will keep this one for another day!

[mpare]

I just don't understand how that is "plain stupid." The primary tenet of golf is that the ball shall be played as it lies. The notion that one should have a perfect lie on the course would be anathema to the Scots. If you hit the ball into a size 12 footprint in a bunker that someone has forgotten to rake, you're stuck with the lie. You play it from there, the same as if you had a self-induced fried-egg. The same holds true for waste areas save that you can ground your club but not in such a manner as to improve your lie. So, if you find yourself in a footprint or a tire track in that waste area (a not unlikely event) you must play away. You might not like your fate. You might not even like the rule that makes you play from anything but a perfect lie, but those are the rules of game. What's stupid about that. If a person wants an assurance of perfect lies, then pool is the game for them. Of course, those who seek perfection might want to be able to move the ball from the cushion, but that's another matter.

...

The whole idea of penalizing a player by having him to play out of a footprint or tire track is plain stupid, whether it is inside or outside the ropes...which brings me to the "divot rule", but will keep this one for another day!

[Ruskie]

I just don't understand how that is "plain stupid." The primary tenet of golf is that the ball shall be played as it lies.

And yet we gladly accept relief from areas marked GUR and don't think twice about it. That leads me to believe that the primary tenet is not as hard and fast as you make it sound, regardless of what the Scotts may think about it, and that the "fairness" or a lie is largely determined by the tournament committee, not by the rules of golf.

Now, to get back to the issue of bunkers. As far as I understand, the primary difference between bunkers and waste areas is that bunkers are maintained, while waste areas are not. I'd think that's the reason that the rules of golf allow you to ground your club in waste areas. I don't suppose you can argue that the area where DJ ended up was maintained. If that's the case, shouldn't it be considered a waste area?

I don't have a problem with the penalty that was assessed to DJ. According to the rules of the day, which everyone else played by, it was the proper call. However, I do have a problem with the way those rules were implemented, and, especially, with the crowd control at the scene.

[BC MIST]

Agreed sensfan, no trace of humanity in these replies. Most folks have empathy for Dustin. Some are just holier the thou.

The issue is solely whether or not DJ should have been able to distinguish a bunker from a lousy lie in the rough, and most agree that he should have, and in looking at the referred pictures, one would have to be blind not to know the difference. HIS error is unfortunate but it was self inflicted. Had an outside force caused the problem then yes, i would feel sorry for him, but that was not the case.

If those of us who play by the rules and expect others to do the same are judged "holier than thou," then good on us. But it does not say much for those who believe that "the devil made him do it."

FWIW: I disqualified a player in a recent OVGA Championship for a serious rules infraction and I think that I actually felt worse than he did.

[fundonny]

I can't imagine having to do that, i would never want to be in your shoes. In other sports, it's not as tough because you're not costing an individual so much as you are in golf. Just sometimes it seems you rules guys don't see the casual aspect, and we casual guys can't see the rules are rules aspect. There's a bridge there somewhere, just very hard to cross.

[Kilroy]

A major is anything but a casual game.

[Ruskie]

The issue is solely whether or not DJ should have been able to distinguish a bunker from a lousy lie in the rough, and most agree that he should have, and in looking at the referred pictures, one would have to be blind not to know the difference. HIS error is unfortunate but it was self inflicted. Had an outside force caused the problem then yes, i would feel sorry for him, but that was not the case.

If those of us who play by the rules and expect others to do the same are judged "holier than thou," then good on us. But it does not say much for those who believe that "the devil made him do it."

Have you ever been in a bunker and had any doubt at all that you were in one, any doubt at all? Have you ever forgotten that you can't ground your club in a bunker? Do you think a tour player, knowing that he's in a bunker, would forget that rule?

Now, since he grounded the club anyway, what possible explanation can there be except that it was not all that obvious he was in a bunker? We can look at all the pictures we want after the fact, but I simply cannot believe that he knew it was a bunker and grounded the club anyway. So, if it was not all that obvious, perhaps the tour deserves a share of the blame.

As for sympathy, I don't understand how you can possibly not feel bad for the guy, regardless of whose fault it was. Do you not feel for a person who steps on a rake and breaks his nose?

BTW, not playing by the rules and questioning the validity of the rules are two different things. I doubt there're many people in this thread that knowingly ignore the rules. However, there are some that seem to equate the two concepts.

[BC MIST]

(1) Have you ever been in a bunker and had any doubt at all that you were in one, any doubt at all? (2) Have you ever forgotten that you can't ground your club in a bunker? (3) Do you think a tour player, knowing that he's in a bunker, would forget that rule?

Now, since he grounded the club anyway, what possible explanation can there be except that it was not all that obvious he was in a bunker? We can look at all the pictures we want after the fact, but I simply cannot believe that he knew it was a bunker and grounded the club anyway. So, if it was not all that obvious, perhaps the tour deserves a share of the blame.

As for sympathy, I don't understand how you can possibly not feel bad for the guy, regardless of whose fault it was. Do you not feel for a person who steps on a rake and breaks his nose?

BTW, not playing by the rules and questioning the validity of the rules are two different things. I doubt there're many people in this thread that knowingly ignore the rules. However, there are some that seem to equate the two concepts.

(1) No
(2) No
(3) Yes The pros are notorious for not knowing the rules.

Sympathy - yes. Empathy - No.

I recognize that the line I have taken here on DJ is a hard one, probably because many of you continue to insist that his gaffe was the fault of someone/thing other than himself and the pics make it clear that he was in a bunker. We will never know what thoughts were actually going through his mind that caused him not to see or consider where he was. He is not the first Tour player to screw up big time and he won't be the last.

BTW: I have stepped on a rake and painfully whacked myself in the shoulder. I assure you I felt very sorry for myself.

[sensfan63]

^ Your answer to 3 is ridiculous. Nobody "forgets" that.

[BC MIST]

Just sometimes it seems you rules guys don't see the casual aspect, and we casual guys can't see the rules are rules aspect. There's a bridge there somewhere, just very hard to cross.

I recognize that playing golf serves various purposes for people and if golfers don't play by the rules, that's fine with me. But, golf is a game that has rules. I play every shot the best I can, I play by the rules, count'em up and write'em down. How do I cross the bridge to your "casual aspect?"

[BC MIST]

^ Your answer to 3 is ridiculous. Nobody "forgets" that.

In the same way no one ever forgets:
(1) to check their hole by hole score?
(2) to drop a ball correctly?
(3) that after they have moved their ball that they must put it back?
(4) that if they fail to hit the ball out of a bunker that they can't ground your club?

I have a DVD that is used in rules education classes showing Tour pros making dozens of those kinds of stupid mistakes.

[mpare]

Facts always help reign in speculation. Pros have committed each of these errors. While one might be sympathetic to their ensuing plight, that did not and should not have prevented the proper application of the rules in dealing with these breaches. I have not one shred of doubt that if the pros themselves were polled on this there would be universal acceptance of this proposition. That is not to say that each and everyone of them embraces all of these rules. That said, though, they recognize the need to abide by them while they are in existence.

In the same way no one ever forgets:
(1) to check their hole by hole score?
(2) to drop a ball correctly?
(3) that after they have moved their ball that they must put it back?
(4) that if they fail to hit the ball out of a bunker that they can't ground your club?

I have a DVD that is used in rules education classes showing Tour pros making dozens of those kinds of stupid mistakes.

[sensfan63]

In the same way no one ever forgets:
(1) to check their hole by hole score?
(2) to drop a ball correctly?
(3) that after they have moved their ball that they must put it back?
(4) that if they fail to hit the ball out of a bunker that they can't ground your club?

I have a DVD that is used in rules education classes showing Tour pros making dozens of those kinds of stupid mistakes.

Perhaps I need to clarify. I found it ridiculous that in a very standard situation, a professional would "forget" that he could not ground his club in a bunker. Now, I confess that my visual was of a greenside bunker shot. I've never seen a professional ground his club behind the ball in that situation. However, I have encountered someone brushing the sand on the way back, which is also a penalty.

And, I also confess that I've been penalized for #4, recently in fact. I'd call it a "senior moment" but I'm not even close to being one.

[sensfan63]

I recognize that playing golf serves various purposes for people and if golfers don't play by the rules, that's fine with me. But, golf is a game that has rules. I play every shot the best I can, I play by the rules, count'em up and write'em down. How do I cross the bridge to your "casual aspect?"

Pick up the next 6 inch putt you have, and you've gotten yourself started.

[Ruskie]

In the same way no one ever forgets:
(1) to check their hole by hole score?
(2) to drop a ball correctly?
(3) that after they have moved their ball that they must put it back?
(4) that if they fail to hit the ball out of a bunker that they can't ground your club?

I have a DVD that is used in rules education classes showing Tour pros making dozens of those kinds of stupid mistakes.

All of those transgressions are not even remotely in the same league as grounding a club in a bunker. Nobody's arguing that tour pros are saints, but that particular rule is second nature not just to tour pros, but to most people who take golf seriously.

Which explanation is more likely: DJ forgot he couldn't ground the club, or that he didn't realize he was in a bunker?

Again, do you not think that PGA should get its fair share of the blame for the incident, regardless of the fact that the player has the ultimate responsibility to observe the rules? Can you honestly say that they did everything they could to provide proper playing environment in this situation?

[BC MIST]

Again, do you not think that PGA should get its fair share of the blame for the incident, regardless of the fact that the player has the ultimate responsibility to observe the rules? Can you honestly say that they did everything they could to provide proper playing environment in this situation?

Apart from having a walking official, attached to the hip of EVERY player who would advise him if he was in a position to possibly break a rule, the Tour did what was it was supposed to do, what they always do and what those of us who officiate do, before any tournament. You said it best above. "...the player has the ultimate responsibility to observe the rules." Glad you are finally coming around.

Here is another dumb one. Jose de Jesus Rodriguez was disqualified yesterday from the current Canadian Tour event because he FORGOT to sign his score card after shooting a 61. Is this the Tour's fault, too?

[BC MIST]

Pick up the next 6 inch putt you have, and you've gotten yourself started.

Or, fluff the ball up in the rough, drop my ball at the nicest point of relief, mark down a 4 because "I never make 5 at this hole," "I'll drop a ball here because I'll slow up play if I go back to the tee," "My ball moved but because I didn't mean to do it, I won't count the stroke..." Now I get it.

I actually putt everything out making me 'holier than thou.'

[mpare]

Years ago I was about to hand in my scorecard in an Amateur. As I was about to do so, one of the officials asked me where my signature was. It wasn't there! I was saved from being DQ'd and have never made that mistake again. It amazes me that pros still forget to do this.

Here's another DQ from this week. Juli Inkster was DQ'd for swinging a donut weighted club during a 30 minute delay in her round contrary to Rule 14-3, which rule has been interpreted under the decision as follows:

Q. During a round, may a player make a stroke or a practice swing using a club with a weighted headcover or “doughnut” on it, or use any other device designed as a training or swing aid?

A. No. The player would be using an artificial device to assist him in his play in breach of Rule 14-3, but see also Decision 4-4a/7 for use of a weighted training club.

The applicable subrule reads as follows:

Rule 14. Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the
player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment, or use any equipment in an unusual manner:

a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play;

This is one rule that I would not have interpreted in the manner adopted by the RCGA. You'll never convince me that the use of a weighted donut assists a player in his play any more so than swinging two or three clubs at one time during the round, the latter of which is legal. But then again, I am not the one who gets to decide these things ... and don't get me started on the silliest interpretation ever that saw the use of a towel to keep one's pants clean while swinging from a kneeling position as "building one's stance" in an illegal fashion!

...
Here is another dumb one. Jose de Jesus Rodriguez was disqualified yesterday from the current Canadian Tour event because he FORGOT to sign his score card after shooting a 61. Is this the Tour's fault, too?

[BC MIST]

and don't get me started on the silliest interpretation ever that saw the use of a towel to keep one's pants clean while swinging from a kneeling position as "building one's stance" in an illegal fashion!

What else could be done to build a stance? The solution is to ban them all.

IF Stadler was kneeling on wet grass on a slope, could the placement of the towel under his knees have prevented him from slipping? The obvious answer gives him an unfair advantage. Do we now say that if the ground was flat and dry, it's OK, but if it's wet and slopped, it's not?

[justsomeguy]

What else could be done to build a stance? The solution is to ban them all.

IF Stadler was kneeling on wet grass on a slope, could the placement of the towel under his knees have prevented him from slipping? The obvious answer gives him an unfair advantage. Do we now say that if the ground was flat and dry, it's OK, but if it's wet and slopped, it's not?

It would only be an "unfair" advantage if one player was allowed to do it and the others were not. Otherwise it is simply an advantage - in the same way that wearing metal spikes might be better on wet grass, or using a lower-lofted driver might be an advantage in the wind. As long as all players have the same opportunity, its not unfair.

And it is equally as "obvious" to allow it for everybody everywhere as it is to disallow it for everybody everywhere.

[mpare]

No one that I recall ever used the slipping justification as a reason for interpreting the rule that way. Was this the real reason that the interpretation was given, or is this an ad hoc justification?

What else could be done to build a stance? The solution is to ban them all.

IF Stadler was kneeling on wet grass on a slope, could the placement of the towel under his knees have prevented him from slipping? The obvious answer gives him an unfair advantage. Do we now say that if the ground was flat and dry, it's OK, but if it's wet and slopped, it's not?

[BC MIST]

It would only be an "unfair" advantage if one player was allowed to do it and the others were not. Otherwise it is simply an advantage - in the same way that wearing metal spikes might be better on wet grass, or using a lower-lofted driver might be an advantage in the wind. As long as all players have the same opportunity, its not unfair.

And it is equally as "obvious" to allow it for everybody everywhere as it is to disallow it for everybody everywhere.

I am going to suggest to the ruling bodies that they revise the rule book based on the expressed Ottawa Golf Forum attitude toward the Rules of Golf.

Rule 1 - Do whatever the hell you want because all former rules are hereby deemed unfair. Gone.