DJ On 18

[Kilroy]

I wanna see a recording! I looked but did not find.

[Ruskie]

Strange. If someone is casting a shadow on your putting line on the green you can ask them to move, but if someone is changing the lighting on your stroke, you can't ask them to stop. I get that there's a difference, by letter of the law, between asking for light and asking for shadow, but in this case it sounds more like nitpicking to me. He wanted uniform lighting conditions, which he could've gotten by clearing all those people out, or getting them to block the light. I don't think he much cared either way.

[Kilroy]

Hmmm.

Strange. If someone is casting a shadow on your putting line on the green you can ask them to move.

[Ruskie]

Just saw a quote from that memo PGA sent to all the players on Golf Fix. Interestingly enough, it refers to (don't remember the exact words) areas designed as bunkers. There was nothing in that quote to suggest that "any sand" on the course is to be treated as a bunker, it just stressed that no relief would be given from footprints and such.

How can you possibly tell that the little puddle of sand DJ hit from was, in fact, designed as a bunker? There's grass around it on three sides, there's grass growing in the sandy patch in front of it, there's no lip in sight, there's no definable contour to it. It could easily have been an area of rough or fesque trampled down by the crowd. I don't know if it makes a difference in the ruling, I guess lack of knowledge can't be used as an excuse, but I don't understand how the players can be expected to realize this little patch of sand was in fact "designed as a bunker".

[PapaPat]

Just saw a quote from that memo PGA sent to all the players on Golf Fix. Interestingly enough, it refers to (don't remember the exact words) areas designed as bunkers. There was nothing in that quote to suggest that "any sand" on the course is to be treated as a bunker, it just stressed that no relief would be given from footprints and such.

How can you possibly tell that the little puddle of sand DJ hit from was, in fact, designed as a bunker? There's grass around it on three sides, there's grass growing in the sandy patch in front of it, there's no lip in sight, there's no definable contour to it. It could easily have been an area of rough or fesque trampled down by the crowd. I don't know if it makes a difference in the ruling, I guess lack of knowledge can't be used as an excuse, but I don't understand how the players can be expected to realize this little patch of sand was in fact "designed as a bunker".

For a million plus, it might be a good idea to ask the RO to make sure. That's why he's there in the first place.

[khali127]

I'm not a rules guy but a few thoughts:

1. The rules officials did a crap job of setting up the roped area on many holes. I saw Tiger have to hit fairway woods over people and ask them to duck down because he was going right over them. The design of the course required the roped area to be a little more restrictive in my opinion. The fact that so many players hit right on 18 (although maybe not as far as DJ) should been a sign that set up of roped area was not sufficient to allow for player error.

2. At DJ shot from "bunker" the marshalls, rules official, caddie and DJ all did crap jobs of having area cleared out. If this had happened then the issue would not have occurred.
When the head official was asked this by Frank Nobilio he answered politically, that is to say he avoided the issue and said nothing. You could see Nobilo try to ask again but Tilghman budded in letting official off the hook.

3. I agree that when he first addressed ball his body language looks like he realized he may have made a mistake.

[Ruskie]

For a million plus, it might be a good idea to ask the RO to make sure. That's why he's there in the first place.

Well, in a million plus tourney, on the last hole of the day, with the tournament on the line, the rules official just might have volunteered that information. The fact that nobody mentioned it to him before he holed out suggests that either there were no rules official on the scene, or that they hadn't realized it was a bunker either.

I'm not about to absolve DJ of all responsibility, but the whole situation could've been avoided with better crowd control, both before and after he landed in the sand, and perhaps with some timely words of caution.

[AAA]

There wouldn't have been a problem if he had bothered to read the notice he was given beforehand. He admitted he didn't.
Given that all players were made aware of the conditions have a look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=figQj...layer_embedded

[Kilroy]

Strange. If someone is casting a shadow on your putting line on the green you can ask them to move, but if someone is changing the lighting on your stroke, you can't ask them to stop.

Found it

14-2/2.5 Player Positions Bag for Purpose of Providing Shade for Ball
Q. A player positions his golf bag near the teeing ground for the purpose of blocking the sunlight from the position where he tees his ball. He then makes a stroke. Is he in breach of Rule 14-2?
A. Yes. As the player was not in contact with the golf bag, he accepted protection from the elements in breach of Rule 14-2. This answer differs from that in Decision 14-2/2 as, in that case, the player was in contact with the umbrella.
While a player may not place an object or position a person for the purpose of blocking the sunlight from his ball, he may ask a person (e.g., a spectator) who is already in position not to move, so that a shadow remains over the ball, or to move, so that his shadow is not over the ball. (New)

He asked someone to move so they cast a shadow on the ball. That's a violation.

[PapaPat]

Well, in a million plus tourney, on the last hole of the day, with the tournament on the line, the rules official just might have volunteered that information. The fact that nobody mentioned it to him before he holed out suggests that either there were no rules official on the scene, or that they hadn't realized it was a bunker either.

I'm not about to absolve DJ of all responsibility, but the whole situation could've been avoided with better crowd control, both before and after he landed in the sand, and perhaps with some timely words of caution.

With a tip of the hat to Bob McCown of Toronto's Fan590, "If if's and but's were candies and nuts, then we would all have a merry Christmas".

[GarthM]

Found it
He asked someone to move so they cast a shadow on the ball. That's a violation.

Sorry Dan but based on your quote from the decision (the red part), it seems that he was not in violation. The spectator was already there and was moving around since the ball went from shade to sun and that was when he asked who was moving around, and proceeded to make sure they did not move. Sounds like no violation to me.

[leftylucas]

The ball was always in the shadow, he asked the spectator to move to block some sun that was shining about 1 foot behind his ball.

[Big Johnny69]

Perhaps a listen to DJ's comment would help clarify this. "Yeah, block it, block it." Does that sound like someone who is trying to get the spectators to stand still? 2 strokes.

I agree that the officials call was BS as he DJ have been penalized 4 strokes instead of just 2. Plus, Bubba Watson trampling all over his drop area near the LW hazard, TWICE, was also BS.

I guess I'll never understand why some feel that golfers should be exempt from playing by the rules.

Here Lyle, just for you (scan down a bit and you'll get your answer to the sun/shade concern):

http://freedrop.wordpress.com/

And again your blinders are on when it comes to the rules and integrity of the game. You are blinded to the possibility of seeing how something could be improved or changed to make the game better.

I never said golfers shouldn't play be the rules. According to the local rules, all sandy areas were to be played as bunkers. DJ was in a bunker and should've approached it accordingly. I have no issues with that. What I have the issue with is letting people walk and stand along, and in, the areas of hazards where players may end up. You don't see it on any other course they play. If you are going to play a course with over 1200 bunkers you should take more precautions than merely posting a local rule stating all sandy areas will be considered bunkers. Like Fowler said, "So cart paths are now bunkers???"

Like someone mentioned on TGN, with all the spectators trampling through that bunker throughout the day, it was tough to define the edge of that bunker. Was DJ actually in the rough right next to the bunker where sand had spilled out of the bunker??? It's possible....

[Big Johnny69]

Found it
He asked someone to move so they cast a shadow on the ball. That's a violation.

If you could see the replay Dan, when he first addresses his ball and grounds his club he suddenly steps away and points to the ground. His ball was originally in the shade then someone on the hill moves and makes sun appear which made him step away. The camera then panned down a bit and you could see the sun/shade area as the people moved on the hill. He then asked them to stop moving once the ball was in the shade again.

[leftylucas]

True Geoff but I have never seen a player complain about a shot that has gone 30 yds off the fairway and ends up in long rough that has been trampled down by spectators thus giving him a pretty good lie that otherwise would not have been. Secondly I believe that in this case the sand was nicely tapped down and the lip was not a problem and DJ had a pretty good lie. If the local rules were given out and posted then all of this is a moot point. The best argument would have been players getting poor lies on traps outside of the ropes. Just like when players complained about the raked bunkers with long teeth at Jack's tourny a few years back. It was unfair the players said and Jack replied "then don't put your ball there"

[Big Johnny69]

True Geoff but I have never seen a player complain about a shot that has gone 30 yds off the fairway and ends up in long rough that has been trampled down by spectators thus giving him a pretty good lie that otherwise would not have been. Secondly I believe that in this case the sand was nicely tapped down and the lip was not a problem and DJ had a pretty good lie. If the local rules were given out and posted then all of this is a moot point. The best argument would have been players getting poor lies on traps outside of the ropes. Just like when players complained about the raked bunkers with long teeth at Jack's tourny a few years back. It was unfair the players said and Jack replied "then don't put your ball there"

True, but rough is not a hazard. Special rules and circumstances do not apply to mere rough. When players hit it into the rough they know they are in the rough and could get a crappy, decent or good lie. When they hit into a hazard they hope they get a good lie, but in general when they approach it, they'd like to be able to distinguish that it is indeed a hazard and can proceed accordingly.

The fact that a current touring pro and a former pro both agreed they didn't think it was a bunker means there should have been more done beforehand (not at the time of DJ's problem, but before the tourney started) to prevent this type of thing from happening. So if those two saw it the same way, I'm sure there would be others.

What would've happened if someone had hit a ball onto a cart path? Would it be a bunker or a path? According to some of the players they were made of sand. What if a player got relief? A lot of what if's, I just wished there was more done to prevent this kind of misunderstanding.

[leftylucas]

My point is that the rules protect the field. What if Watson's drive had ended up in a similar bunker but he had read the rules and so did not ground his club and ended up not making the desired shot due to that fact. Then he is waiting for a playoff and see DJ ground his club and thinks WTF, all bunkers are in play. DJ should have been aware that all bunkers including all of those beyond the roped area were in play and then he would have most certainly have asked a rules official to come over for some discussion. The fact that these bunkers were not considered as such in 2004 reinforces the point that he should have read the local rules. Every one is putting the cart before the horse here, the rules were in place prior to the first shot of the tournament.

[Ruskie]

The issue is not with the rules. The issues is that DJ had not realized he was in a bunker. Now, _that_ could have been helped by better crowd control at the scene and/or preemptive caution from the officials.

[PapaPat]

True, but rough is not a hazard. Special rules and circumstances do not apply to mere rough. When players hit it into the rough they know they are in the rough and could get a crappy, decent or good lie. When they hit into a hazard they hope they get a good lie, but in general when they approach it, they'd like to be able to distinguish that it is indeed a hazard and can proceed accordingly.

The fact that a current touring pro and a former pro both agreed they didn't think it was a bunker means there should have been more done beforehand (not at the time of DJ's problem, but before the tourney started) to prevent this type of thing from happening. So if those two saw it the same way, I'm sure there would be others.

What would've happened if someone had hit a ball onto a cart path? Would it be a bunker or a path? According to some of the players they were made of sand. What if a player got relief? A lot of what if's, I just wished there was more done to prevent this kind of misunderstanding.

Once again, I see lots of second guessing as to how this circus course was approached by the Rules Committee. I don't see much in the way of specifics as to what the alternative approaches could or should have been. They have explained why they did not go with an inside/outside approach. From their perspective, they are just trying to accomodate everyone in a very difficult setting.

The path thing is a red herring. Some of our best courses, Mad River for example, have dirt paths in some areas and relief is not offered in GAO events. To my knowledge, they have never been mistaken for very long narrow bunkers.

My solution is for people to stop building and scheduling events on such silly courses. I felt the same way about the course that this year's Canadian Skins game was played on.

[Big Johnny69]

My point is that the rules protect the field. What if Watson's drive had ended up in a similar bunker but he had read the rules and so did not ground his club and ended up not making the desired shot due to that fact. Then he is waiting for a playoff and see DJ ground his club and thinks WTF, all bunkers are in play. DJ should have been aware that all bunkers including all of those beyond the roped area were in play and then he would have most certainly have asked a rules official to come over for some discussion. The fact that these bunkers were not considered as such in 2004 reinforces the point that he should have read the local rules. Every one is putting the cart before the horse here, the rules were in place prior to the first shot of the tournament.

Agreed, and I'm not saying ignorance is an excuse. I just think more should have been done so there would be no question in anyone's mind whether or not that area was a bunker. If DJ was the only saying he didn't think it was a bunker then it wouldn't be an issue. But others have come forth and said they didn't believe it was a bunker either. I personally thought it was a waste area because spectators were standing in it.

[Big Johnny69]

Once again, I see lots of second guessing as to how this circus course was approached by the Rules Committee. I don't see much in the way of specifics as to what the alternative approaches could or should have been. They have explained why they did not go with an inside/outside approach. From their perspective, they are just trying to accomodate everyone in a very difficult setting.

The path thing is a red herring. Some of our best courses, Mad River for example, have dirt paths in some areas and relief is not offered in GAO events. To my knowledge, they have never been mistaken for very long narrow bunkers.

My solution is for people to stop building and scheduling events on such silly courses. I felt the same way about the course that this year's Canadian Skins game was played on.

Agreed, part of my argument.

[PapaPat]

[QUOTE=Ruskie;374176]The issue is not with the rules. The issues is that DJ had not realized he was in a bunker. Now, _that_ could have been helped by better crowd control at the scene and/or preemptive caution from the officials.[/QUOTE]

One of the things that does not seem to be understood about the role of a Rules Official is that he or she is constantly trying to not be too much a part of the action. The concept that was part of my training and which is used by just about all of the Senior RO's I try to model myself after is one of "availability". I rarely speak to a player who has not engaged me first. The idea that we are running around spouting rules cautions is just not the way things work or should work. If asked, I might lay out the player's options and include a reminder about grounding a club or not moving impediments. But I don't run around doing this every time I see a player in a hazard.

A part of this consideration is that warnings should be consistent for all players. This of course is not possible if they were to be given out ad hoc. The objective that is more attainable is to make a Rules official as much as possible "available" to all players. The PGA did this.

[leftylucas]

The issue is not with the rules. The issues is that DJ had not realized he was in a bunker. Now, _that_ could have been helped by better crowd control at the scene and/or preemptive caution from the officials.

I could not disagree more, DJ even eluded to that when he spoke with Feherty. He said he should have read the rules. Let's say this same situation occurs at his next tournament, he will ask, I am 150% sure of that. Same situation here, had he known that all bunkers were in play he most certainly have asked a rules official. There is no didfference

If he assumed it was not then that was a big mistake. The fact that the rules clearly stated that these areas would have foot prints, tire tracks etc is more a reason for any player to ask where the ball is lying when it lands outside of the ropes in sand. I mean you are in sand that has footprints and tire tracks in it,its outside of the ropes, there are 1200 of these on the course, maybe its a bunker? Why not ask?

[Ruskie]

I could not disagree more, DJ even eluded to that when he spoke with Feherty. He said he should have read the rules. Let's say this same situation occurs at his next tournament, he will ask, I am 150% sure of that. Same situation here, had he known that all bunkers were in play he most certainly have asked a rules official. There is no didfference

If he assumed it was not then that was a big mistake. The fact that the rules clearly stated that these areas would have foot prints, tire tracks etc is more a reason for any player to ask where the ball is lying when it lands outside of the ropes in sand. I mean you are in sand that has footprints and tire tracks in it,its outside of the ropes, there are 1200 of these on the course, maybe its a bunker? Why not ask?

If I recall, he also said he did not think he was in a bunker. He didn't say that he thought he was in a bunker that was out of play. So, to me, the issue is that he didn't recognize that the patch of sand was a bunker. Weather he read the local rules or not, I'd think he would've at least asked the official if he thought it was a bunker.

[jeffc]

I could not disagree more, DJ even eluded to that when he spoke with Feherty. He said he should have read the rules. Let's say this same situation occurs at his next tournament, he will ask, I am 150% sure of that. Same situation here, had he known that all bunkers were in play he most certainly have asked a rules official. There is no didfference

If he assumed it was not then that was a big mistake. The fact that the rules clearly stated that these areas would have foot prints, tire tracks etc is more a reason for any player to ask where the ball is lying when it lands outside of the ropes in sand. I mean you are in sand that has footprints and tire tracks in it,its outside of the ropes, there are 1200 of these on the course, maybe its a bunker? Why not ask?

he had a brain fart plain and simple. He is leading a major by one, hit his drive offline and now has to negotiate a tough shot and deal with hundreds of fans around him. Should he or his caddy asked an official. Definitely. It's easy to judge someone after the fact however we have all been in situations in life where the easy answer just wasn't obvious at the time, for whatever reason. Call it a mental block but if you have been playing all your life with the idea that bunkers do not have people standing in them and are never found outside the ropes, that line of thinking would be correct to him. And yes, he should have read the local rules.

Now I agree with ruskie, if you see that area without the throngs of fans around it, you know it is definitenly a bunker cause it looks like one if you can see the whole thing. Where he was with all the people it could and was mistaken for a bare spot. Crowd control proved to be an issue. If he played that hole with no fans on there is no doubt he would have realized it was a bunker. I am amazed that crowds are so close to the players in these situations, and not just at this course either.

And finally, there was nothing in the local rules that said all sandy areas should be treated as bunkers. Here is the rule:

1. Bunkers: All areas of the course that were designed and built as sand bunkers will be played as bunkers (hazards), whether or not they have been raked. This will mean that many bunkers positioned outside of the ropes, as well as some areas of bunkers inside the ropes, close to the rope line, will likely include numerous footprints, heel prints and tire tracks during the play of the Championship. Such irregularities of surface are a part of the game and no free relief will be available from these conditions.

Note 1: The sand area in front, left and behind No. 5 green in the lateral water hazard is NOT a bunker (do not move stones).

Note 2: Where necessary, blue dots define the margin of a bunker.

[Big Johnny69]

he had a brain fart plain and simple. He is leading a major by one, hit his drive offline and now has to negotiate a tough shot and deal with hundreds of fans around him. Should he or his caddy asked an official. Definitely. It's easy to judge someone after the fact however we have all been in situations in life where the easy answer just wasn't obvious at the time, for whatever reason. Call it a mental block but if you have been playing all your life with the idea that bunkers do not have people standing in them and are never found outside the ropes, that line of thinking would be correct to him. And yes, he should have read the local rules.

Now I agree with ruskie, if you see that area without the throngs of fans around it, you know it is definitenly a bunker cause it looks like one if you can see the whole thing. Where he was with all the people it could and was mistaken for a bare spot. Crowd control proved to be an issue. If he played that hole with no fans on there is no doubt he would have realized it was a bunker. I am amazed that crowds are so close to the players in these situations, and not just at this course either.

And finally, there was nothing in the local rules that said all sandy areas should be treated as bunkers. Here is the rule:

1. Bunkers: All areas of the course that were designed and built as sand bunkers will be played as bunkers (hazards), whether or not they have been raked. This will mean that many bunkers positioned outside of the ropes, as well as some areas of bunkers inside the ropes, close to the rope line, will likely include numerous footprints, heel prints and tire tracks during the play of the Championship. Such irregularities of surface are a part of the game and no free relief will be available from these conditions.

Note 1: The sand area in front, left and behind No. 5 green in the lateral water hazard is NOT a bunker (do not move stones).

Note 2: Where necessary, blue dots define the margin of a bunker.

I believe I was merely taking the quote from the rules guy that said they agreed to make all "sandy" areas bunkers. Probably just taken out of context.

[leftylucas]

If I recall, he also said he did not think he was in a bunker. He didn't say that he thought he was in a bunker that was out of play. So, to me, the issue is that he didn't recognize that the patch of sand was a bunker. Weather he read the local rules or not, I'd think he would've at least asked the official if he thought it was a bunker.

We agree to a point, if he did not think he was in a bunker at all then sure but had he read the rules then he would have reason to have checked at that point don't you think, its the PGA, don't take a chance because it might be! Again, cart before the horse. If he had prior knowledge of the rules he would have checked or be ridiculed for not doing so.

[MakingtheCut]

Just came across this and started wondering what the definition of "prepared area" is: Does this mean raked? properly cut?

The official definition of "bunker" from the Rules of Golf is this:

A 'bunker' is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

[Big Johnny69]

Just came across this and started wondering what the definition of "prepared area" is: Does this mean raked? properly cut?

The official definition of "bunker" from the Rules of Golf is this:

A 'bunker' is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

I think, by prepared area, they mean the specific area in which they removed what was previously there to replace it with the bunker. I don't think they mean prepared as in raked, but rather they prepared the area to be a bunker by removing all previous material. I have been known to be wrong in more cases than not.

[leftylucas]

The local rule also stipulated that the bunkers outside the ropes could contain shoe marks, tire marks and be unraked.