questioning an opponent

[hacker1]

played yesterday and 2 out of the 3 players were great to play with
the other player not so
drove way a ahead- never helped looking for opponents ball
anyway..
playing one hole the player was in a red staked area
he proceded to basically kill a small tree when taking his stance
then hit 2 trees twice when taking practice swings
me one other player both watched this mention that he had hit the trees in the hazard
we both though he was wrong but we did want to appear to looked upon trying to take and unfair adavantage being rule sticklers
i try to play by all the rules and if see an infraction i will bring to the opponents attention in the hopes that he will play by the rules and call the stroke on himself

anyway when he got out of hazard we mentioned that he may of broke the rules at which point he told he was entitled to take a stance and practice swing
we and the other player both kind of chickened out and let it drop

anyone have any suggestions on how to handle something like this
by the way he only got 2 points

[Kilroy]

2 points? Was this in the intersectionals?

You should have taken it to the committee. No need to argue with him.

[LobWedge]

played yesterday and 2 out of the 3 players were great to play with
the other player not so
drove way a ahead- never helped looking for opponents ball
anyway..
playing one hole the player was in a red staked area
he proceded to basically kill a small tree when taking his stance
then hit 2 trees twice when taking practice swings
me one other player both watched this mention that he had hit the trees in the hazard
we both though he was wrong but we did want to appear to looked upon trying to take and unfair adavantage being rule sticklers
i try to play by all the rules and if see an infraction i will bring to the opponents attention in the hopes that he will play by the rules and call the stroke on himself

anyway when he got out of hazard we mentioned that he may of broke the rules at which point he told he was entitled to take a stance and practice swing
we and the other player both kind of chickened out and let it drop

anyone have any suggestions on how to handle something like this
by the way he only got 2 points

1. There's never anything unfair about playing by the rules. That's part of how players learn.

2. Did he gain an advantage by stepping on the small tree? Did it improve his area of intended stance or swing? If so, he should have lost the hole at that point.

3. You're allowed to touch fixed or growing objects with your club in a hazard, so long as you don't improve your area of stance or swing, or your line of play.

[hacker1]

maybe you help me then
i was always told that in a hazard if you take a practice swing you cannot touch
or hit any of the trees in the hazard taking a practice swing
the other part of what i maybe mis read is that you cannot bend a small tree over so you can in prove your stance- i was always told that that is a no no
just so i know for next time ( thats changed??)
can you help me out and tell what rules that they are covered in
thanks ( still hard to bring this up to an opponent)

[gbower]

If this was in the intersectional matches it is up to you and the other players to call the opponent and if he says he's doing nothing wrong then you make a claim against him and take it to the committee. In match play if you say nothing and someone want to cheat there's nothing that can be done if you don't call them. Then it becomes like a hockey game where you see what you can get away with until you get called. This is the problem in that people are afraid to call their opponent. He isn't entitled to destroy the area in a hazard and improve his swing. He is entitled to fairly take a stance but can't go crunching and bending things to let him have that stance and a swing. If he does do that it is loss of hole in match play.

[BC MIST]

( still hard to bring this up to an opponent)

Yes, it is. However, this guy is NOT your friend and you are not likely to encounter him again, so the right thing to do is to politely tell him that what he did is against the rules, make a claim as Gerry suggested, and then forget it.

If you let it go, what you are really telling him that it is OK to break the rules. How would you feel if NOT calling him meant the difference between your team winning versus coming in second? Calling him might cause him to discuss options if a similar scenario is encountered on subsequent holes.

Intersectionals bring out a lot of "one timers," where these matches are the only tournament they play in the year. Those ignorant of the rules should be helped but those just ignorant should be put in their place.

[AAA]

maybe you help me then
i was always told that in a hazard if you take a practice swing you cannot touch
or hit any of the trees in the hazard taking a practice swing

Rule 13-4
Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

the other part of what i maybe mis read is that you cannot bend a small tree over so you can in prove your stance- i was always told that that is a no no
just so i know for next time ( thats changed??)
can you help me out and tell what rules that they are covered in
thanks ( still hard to bring this up to an opponent)

See this link to Decision 13-2/1 re fairly taking a stance

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules...ion-13/#13-2/1

[goochy]

I was going to say this yesterday but then second guessed myself.

In the OP as described I don't believe your opponent did break any rules...thanks AAA for the clarification

[corchard]

Question for ya.
If a player mows down a bunch of grass in the hazzard with multiple practice swings, without improving his lie, isn't he moving loose impediments (the individual blades of grass he's brutally murdered)

Rule 13-4
Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.


See this link to Decision 13-2/1 re fairly taking a stance

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules...ion-13/#13-2/1

[BC MIST]

Question for ya.
If a player mows down a bunch of grass in the hazzard with multiple practice swings, without improving his lie, isn't he moving loose impediments (the individual blades of grass he's brutally murdered)

No. Loose impediments are unattached, whereas, grass is obviously attached and growing. While the player may TOUCH the grass, he is not permitted to "brutally murder" it, that is, mow it down. Improving the 'area of his intended swing" is not permitted. Stroke Play - 2 strokes. Match Play - Loss of hole. Rule 13-2

[AAA]

Question for ya.
If a player mows down a bunch of grass in the hazzard with multiple practice swings, without improving his lie, isn't he moving loose impediments (the individual blades of grass he's brutally murdered)

You could be right if the player breaks off the grass with his first swing and then hits the broken off blades of grass, which are now loose impediments.

[corchard]

You could be right if the player breaks off the grass with his first swing and then hits the broken off blades of grass, which are now loose impediments.

That was sort of my point.

What's the test for Rule 13-4 a?

...the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

I would have thought that taking multiple swings would violate this rule.

[AAA]

That was sort of my point.

What's the test for Rule 13-4 a?

...the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

I would have thought that taking multiple swings would violate this rule.

It depends. See the Note to 13-4

[corchard]

It depends. See the Note to 13-4

I've looked at the note, backwards and forwards over the last few days.

In the OP there isn't enough information to determine if his practice swings were violating a rule. If his practice swings were backwards only to determine swing path and hit the tree then I don't see a violation. If he was mowing grass to get a feel for how the club passed through the grass in the hazzard I see it as a violation.

That's why I was wondering if there were a test for 13-4a.

[Shreen]

If during these practice swings, parts of the trees came off, this would be a penalty for improving your 'area of intended swing' - assuming his practice swings are on his intended swing area - correct?

[AAA]

If during these practice swings, parts of the trees came off, this would be a penalty for improving your 'area of intended swing' - assuming his practice swings are on his intended swing area - correct?

Correct