Where can I drop ?

[yjustin]

Sometimes it is complicated where I have to drop around yellow stake hazzard area.

Where should I drop ? or Do I have to rehit from tee box ?
Thank you

[gbower]

Going back to where you hit your last shot is one of the options (stroke and distance) and you would drop there or if it's back to the tee you can tee the ball up again. Another option is to keep the point where the ball last crossed the hazard line and the flagstick in a line and you can drop on that line going back as far as you wish. If the ball is playable you can also play it from the hazard making sure you don't ground your club.

[yjustin]

Sorry for not to mention it was the water there.
So I am able to drop the ball at number 1 area in the picture ?

THanks

[Kilroy]

The image is not showing.

[AAA]

Sorry for not to mention it was the water there.

Areas marked with yellow lines or stakes ar Water Hazards. There is usually water there but not necessarily all the time.

Water Hazard
A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course . All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.

Rule 26-1 Relief
The player may under penalty of one stroke: a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped;

[yjustin]

Image is not showing ? hmm
It is so hard to explain this question without image.
Can I send by email ?

[AAA]

See attached diagram. Click on the thumbnail.

The ball was played from A. It last crossed the margin of the Water Hazard at B and finished in the water at C.

C is irelevant.

The player may drop and play from the original place ie point A. (option (a) in the rule)

Or drop and play the ball along the line from the hole through point B. But it must be on the line from B towards the arrowhead as far as he likes. (option (b) in the rule)

[yjustin]

So if you see my attachment I may drop the ball at the area 1 ?

[gbower]

I don't understand your diagram yjustin. Where's the green, what direction are you playing, and where did you hit from. From what I'm seeing it doesn't look like there would be any way of dropping at point 1 but I'm sure I'm missing something here. AAA's diagram is very self explanatory.

[yjustin]

green is on the top side and hitting from teebox.
My question was if my ball crossed the little lip area, I wasnt sure if I could drop my ball at point 1 and keep playing, or do I have to rehit from the teebox

Sorry for confusing diagram....

[ex-mailman]

within 2 club lengths of where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard at point #1.
or back along the line with the point it last crossed the hazard line(point#1) between where you drop and the hole. Or go back to where you hit the previous shot.

[AAA]

within 2 club lengths of where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard at point #1.

That option is only available for a Lateral Water Hazard (red markings).
This is a yellow marked Water Hazard

[ex-mailman]

AAA- of course I messed up again. Looking at the diagram I didn't see the yellow(guess I am "yellow,purple" color blind).

[rezadue]

If it was red stakes though, you can drop on the other side of the hazard but no closer. Correct?

[orangeTANG]

I'm surprised those stakes are yellow based on the diagram. To me, the course should have those marked as red. Yellow is typically perpendicular to the fairway (ie a creek that crosses the fairway) and not something that runs down the side of one. Am I wrong here?

[BC MIST]

If it was red stakes though, you can drop on the other side of the hazard but no closer. Correct?

I would put yellow stakes on both sides of this hazard. Red stakes are used when it is not possible to drop a ball behind the hazard in accordance with Rule 26-1b. In this case, it clearly is possible.

Also, the drop zone on the other side is non conforming in that it allows the player to play from the other side of the hazard without having to play a shot over it. Decision 33-8/2. While some courses do this to "speed up play," it is typical of the dummying down disease that is epidemic in North America.

[rezadue]

So you are saying that decision 33-8/2 supercedes course markings is this case?

I would put yellow stakes on both sides of this hazard. Red stakes are used when it is not possible to drop a ball behind the hazard in accordance with Rule 26-1b. In this case, it clearly is possible.

Also, the drop zone on the other side is non conforming in that it allows the player to play from the other side of the hazard without having to play a shot over it. Decision 33-8/2. While some courses do this to "speed up play," it is typical of the dummying down disease that is epidemic in North America.

[LobWedge]

So you are saying that decision 33-8/2 supercedes course markings is this case?

No, this decision refers to a Local Rule that substantially alters a Rule of Golf. It deals with the principle of Rule 33-8b, not specifically relief from a water hazard.

[yjustin]

So what is the final answer ? Could I drop at position "1" ?

[LobWedge]

So what is the final answer ? Could I drop at position "1" ?

Not exactly. If you encounter a Water Hazard (yellow stakes), you only have 2 relief options under Rule 26-1. You can either go back to where you prevously played from, and drop (or re-tee on the teeing ground), or keeping the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard directly between you and the flag, drop a ball anywhere along that imaginary line, as far back as you want. Both options carry a one stroke penalty.

Now if your ball was in a Lateral Water Hazard (red stakes), there are one or two additional options to the ones above.

[BC MIST]

So you are saying that decision 33-8/2 supercedes course markings is this case?

There are some courses that mark the courses incorrectly without any concern for the Rules of Golf by creating drop zones, for example, and in many cases, lateral water hazards that are not hazards, by definition. Many golfers and golf clubs believe that they can create any local rules that they want. This is incorrect.

Rule 33-1 states: "The committee has no power to waive a rule of golf," and by doing the above and others, that is exactly what they are doing. If the design of a hole is a carry over water, then the water must be carried. Placing a drop zone on the other side of the hazard eliminates the need to carry the water. Placing lateral water hazards stakes near the bush, along the sides of holes, means that the player does NOT have to hit "between the trees," with his T shot, but can just pull the ball out of the trees or drop another saving the distance part of the stroke and distance penalty, effectively, 1 stroke. Courses do this AFTER the course has been properly rated and the raters have left. Members who exercise the LWH options other than stroke and distance, a, are not playing by the rules and b, will likely have artificially low handicaps.

[LobWedge]

There are some courses that mark the courses incorrectly without any concern for the Rules of Golf by creating drop zones, for example, and in many cases, lateral water hazards that are not hazards, by definition. Many golfers and golf clubs believe that they can create any local rules that they want. This is incorrect.

Rule 33-1 states: "The committee has no power to waive a rule of golf," and by doing the above and others, that is exactly what they are doing. If the design of a hole is a carry over water, then the water must be carried. Placing a drop zone on the other side of the hazard eliminates the need to carry the water. Placing lateral water hazards stakes near the bush, along the sides of holes, means that the player does NOT have to hit "between the trees," with his T shot, but can just pull the ball out of the trees or drop another saving the distance part of the stroke and distance penalty, effectively, 1 stroke. Courses do this AFTER the course has been properly rated and the raters have left. Members who exercise the LWH options other than stroke and distance, a, are not playing by the rules and b, will likely have artificially low handicaps.

Loch March #13...

[Ruskie]

There are some courses that mark the courses incorrectly without any concern for the Rules of Golf by creating drop zones, for example, and in many cases, lateral water hazards that are not hazards, by definition. Many golfers and golf clubs believe that they can create any local rules that they want. This is incorrect.

Rule 33-1 states: "The committee has no power to waive a rule of golf," and by doing the above and others, that is exactly what they are doing. If the design of a hole is a carry over water, then the water must be carried. Placing a drop zone on the other side of the hazard eliminates the need to carry the water. Placing lateral water hazards stakes near the bush, along the sides of holes, means that the player does NOT have to hit "between the trees," with his T shot, but can just pull the ball out of the trees or drop another saving the distance part of the stroke and distance penalty, effectively, 1 stroke. Courses do this AFTER the course has been properly rated and the raters have left. Members who exercise the LWH options other than stroke and distance, a, are not playing by the rules and b, will likely have artificially low handicaps.

While I agree that making these kinds of changes after a course was rated is dishonest, I can certainly see the rationale behind them. Most courses have to cater to both skilled golfers and hackers and have to keep the pace going. Champlain, for instance, would have regular log jams if #4 didn't have a drop zone. As for marking lateral bush as a hazard, have you tried finding a ball in any of those at, say, Le Sorcier? Most of the time if your ball even trickles into the bush there it's gone.

I understand your desire to keep the courses as pure and close to design vision as possible, but most golfers can't claim 76 as their worst round of the year and hence welcome these concessions to the mediocrity of their game.

Cheers,
Alex.

PS: Just out of curiosity, which rules are violated by creating a drop zone or marking the bush as a lateral hazard?

[LobWedge]

While I agree that making these kinds of changes after a course was rated is dishonest, I can certainly see the rationale behind them. Most courses have to cater to both skilled golfers and hackers and have to keep the pace going. Champlain, for instance, would have regular log jams if #4 didn't have a drop zone. As for marking lateral bush as a hazard, have you tried finding a ball in any of those at, say, Le Sorcier? Most of the time if your ball even trickles into the bush there it's gone.

I understand your desire to keep the courses as pure and close to design vision as possible, but most golfers can't claim 76 as their worst round of the year and hence welcome these concessions to the mediocrity of their game.

Cheers,
Alex.

PS: Just out of curiosity, which rules are violated by creating a drop zone or marking the bush as a lateral hazard?

Sorry Alex, I have to disagree. If players know the rules (see Rule 6-1) then they should know that Rule 27 is there for a reason. If you think your ball may be lost outside of a hazard, then play a provisional ball. Marking dry areas/trees as hazards, and using drop zones is lazy. Only in extreme cases such as, it's impossible to determine point of entry, or where it's impossible to take proper relief, should drop zones be used.

A truly good course design takes into account placement of hazards, and pace of play when the blueprints are still on the drawing board, long before a shovel hits the ground.

Every example you've given leads to the same conclusion... money.

[Ruskie]

Sorry Alex, I have to disagree. If players know the rules (see Rule 6-1) then they should know that Rule 27 is there for a reason. If you think your ball may be lost outside of a hazard, then play a provisional ball. Marking dry areas/trees as hazards, and using drop zones is lazy. Only in extreme cases such as, it's impossible to determine point of entry, or where it's impossible to take proper relief, should drop zones be used.

A truly good course design takes into account placement of hazards, and pace of play when the blueprints are still on the drawing board, long before a shovel hits the ground.

Every example you've given leads to the same conclusion... money.

Oh, I agree it all comes down to money in most cases, although Loch March, which you've used as an example earlier, could probably be considered a well-funded course, and so can TPC Sawgrass. The question is, are these things really contrary to the Rules of Golf?

Cheers,
Alex.

[LobWedge]

Oh, I agree it all comes down to money in most cases, although Loch March, which you've used as an example earlier, could probably be considered a well-funded course, and so can TPC Sawgrass. The question is, are these things really contrary to the Rules of Golf?

Cheers,
Alex.

It depends. In these cases (I'm assuming you're speaking of #17 at Sawgrass) where there is a large body of water that separates the tee and the green, and there's no practical area to take relief, then a drop zone would be warranted. Otherwise it's too punitive, and leaves the player with only one option. That's not fair.

TPC does it correctly though (there's no other choice actually). The player still has to negotiate the hazard to get to the green. Loch March's drop zone should be at the front of the forward tee deck, so that the player still has to cross the water. Again, in both cases, the player still has the option to re-tee (with a one stroke penalty, of course). It worked for Fred Couples.

[gbower]

In most of our tournaments that I work we don't use the club's drop zone and will often use the forward tee area which still requires negotiating the hazard. This is definitely the case at Loch March.

[yjustin]

THank you all

[justsomeguy]

If it was red stakes though, you can drop on the other side of the hazard but no closer. Correct?

Correct, although as BC pointed out there is no way this should be marked as a lateral water hazard and I don't think I have ever seen a water hazard like this with red stakes.

BTW, I think some people have mistaken your drop "area" for a drop zone that is designated as such by the course. As BC pointed out, a drop zone should not be placed on the other side of a water hazard (and should not even be necessary for a lateral water hazard).

[Ruskie]

Correct, although as BC pointed out there is no way this should be marked as a lateral water hazard and I don't think I have ever seen a water hazard like this with red stakes.

Actually, I've seen many lateral (red stakes) hazards with peninsulas like that. Marshes #2 is a prime example. You can cross one or two of those en route to the water. It's quite common to drop on one of those peninsulas.