Which Rule Messes You Up?

[LobWedge]

Which Rule or Rules do you have the most trouble understanding/applying?

[fundonny]

I guess the rule that prevents you from lift, cleaning and placing if you land in the fairway but in a filled, or unfilled, divot. Penalized for a perfect shot.

[XTOUR]

Specifically the cart path rule. Ball is in the rough but to hit it your feet are on the cart path. what are the options?

[Chambokl]

I guess the rule that prevents you from lift, cleaning and placing if you land in the fairway but in a filled, or unfilled, divot. Penalized for a perfect shot.

Donny, you have to move to Northern Ontario... pretty much lift, clean and place all summer...

[XTOUR]

Secondly, Ball hit off tee....Prov hit. Search for first ball and find a water hazard in area where ball landed. Can you play it as a hazard or must someone have seen the ball go in?

[fundonny]

Donny, you have to move to Northern Ontario... pretty much lift, clean and place all summer...

I'd have gold fever!

[BC MIST]

Secondly, Ball hit off tee....Prov hit. Search for first ball and find a water hazard in area where ball landed. Can you play it as a hazard or must someone have seen the ball go in?

Excellent question and an often confusing issue.

1. Is the provisional permitted? Yes, if you did not know that the hazard was there, OR, if you felt that the ball might be lost outside the hazard, if you did.

2. The ball was not found. You searched for the ball outside the hazard. Therefore, it was NOT known or virtually certain that the ball was in the hazard and so it was lost.

3. The provisional now becomes the ball in play.

[LobWedge]

I guess the rule that prevents you from lift, cleaning and placing if you land in the fairway but in a filled, or unfilled, divot. Penalized for a perfect shot.

An endless discussion topic Donny. People have argued forever that divots should be declared ground under repair. The problems occur when you get in to the meat of the definition of GUR, and things like partial divots, etc. are encountered.

We are obliged to play the course as we find it, unless the Rules allow otherwise.

[XTOUR]

Thanks for the clarification

Excellent question and an often confusing issue.

1. Is the provisional permitted? Yes, if you did not know that the hazard was there, OR, if you felt that the ball might be lost outside the hazard, if you did.

2. The ball was not found. You searched for the ball outside the hazard. Therefore, it was NOT known or virtually certain that the ball was in the hazard and so it was lost.

3. The provisional now becomes the ball in play.

[XTOUR]

Rich, how did the weekend gO?

[LobWedge]

Specifically the cart path rule. Ball is in the rough but to hit it your feet are on the cart path. what are the options?

Scott, a cart path is an obstruction. You can either play the ball as it lies, standing on the path, or take relief under Rule 24-2b(i). If you choose to take relief, you must take complete relief from the obstruction.

[LobWedge]

Rich, how did the weekend gO?

I won't lie to you, it was tough, but I learned a lot. I was really tired after it was all said and done. Now the waiting game until I get my exam results back...

[gbower]

On my rules course someone asked about divot holes being changed to be treated as ground under repair and the answer was a solid "NO"

[Kilroy]

I guess Jack Nicklaus was not present.

[BC MIST]

On my rules course someone asked about divot holes being changed to be treated as ground under repair and the answer was a solid "NO"

As long as one believes that when a ball lands on the fairway, the golfer should get a perfect lie, the divot debate will go on forever. That's not golf. The only course I have seen around here where this is likely to happen is the Royal Ottawa. Wouldn't other courses like to have their annual greens budget?

Using the logic of a perfect shot deserving a perfect lie, it only follows then that a bad shot that caroms off a tree in the bush, back into the fairway, should be marked, lifted, cleaned and placed in the lie it deserves, in the bush. Wouldn't that be FAIR, fundonny?

BTW: Jack Nicklaus showed his inconsistency when he referred to preferred lies as "Lift, clean and CHEAT!

[nokids]

Many things mess me up.

What color stakes means what. It seems like every course has different colors, but the scorecards don't explain them.

What is out of bounds and what isn't.

If there's a branch or weed in my way, can i bend it as i'm taking my stance to take a shot since it's 'growing' on the land.

[rezadue]

I don't think any given rule gives me trouble. What gives me trouble is assessing the correct penalty/relief in certain situations.

[AAA]

I don't think any given rule gives me trouble. What gives me trouble is assessing the correct penalty/relief in certain situations.

A very rough and ready guide is 'How did the breach come about'

If it was accidental - 1 stroke

eg 18-2, 19-2

I the causal action was itself intentional (even thought there was no intent to breach the rule - 2 strokes.
eg 6-7, 8, 11-4b

Try going through the penalty statements in the book and see if what I am trying to say holds up.

Incidentally, a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play is loss of hole in matchplay.

[BC MIST]

Many things mess me up.

What color stakes means what. It seems like every course has different colors, but the scorecards don't explain them.

What is out of bounds and what isn't.

If there's a branch or weed in my way, can i bend it as i'm taking my stance to take a shot since it's 'growing' on the land.

The definitions indicate that water hazard stakes MUST be yellow, lateral water hazard stakes MUST be red and out of bounds stakes SHOULD be white. Environmentally sensitive areas have yellow or red stakes, often with GREEN tops. Sometimes lines are used and those painted yellow, red or white indicate what is a WH, LWH or OB. Where there are lines, the stakes indicate that the condition is present but the lines define it.

Sometimes there are other vague OB indicator such as fences, walls and so on. In the case the line connecting the inner most part of the fence, wall, etc., shows the OB line, but keep in mind that the whole golf ball must be over the outer most part of the line for the ball to be out of bounds. However, for red or yellow hazard lines, any part of the ball breaking the inner plane of the line, shows that the ball is IN the hazard.

[Colby]

The biggest issue that I see from people is the definition of "Closest Point of Relief" and how to determine that. Especially when a cart path is in play. For example, XTOUR's question. If the ball is in the rough and your feet are on the cart path, you are permitted relief, however the closest point of relief is most likely further into the rough (and I say likely as there may be a hazard on that side). Most people I see try and take the drop on the most favourable side of the cart path.

I always leave my ball where it is and figure out the closest point of relief and see if it is really better than my current lie. Once you pick up your ball you are committed.

[LobWedge]

The biggest issue that I see from people is the definition of "Closest Point of Relief" and how to determine that. Especially when a cart path is in play. For example, XTOUR's question. If the ball is in the rough and your feet are on the cart path, you are permitted relief, however the closest point of relief is most likely further into the rough (and I say likely as there may be a hazard on that side). Most people I see try and take the drop on the most favourable side of the cart path.

I always leave my ball where it is and figure out the closest point of relief and see if it is really better than my current lie. Once you pick up your ball you are committed.

As the saying goes, the "N" stands for Nearest, not Nicest.

[sharkshooter]

Which Rule or Rules do you have the most trouble understanding/applying?

Generally, I understand pretty much all the rules (there are some I don't like and some I don't understand the reason for them or why they are the way they are).

But, the penalty which I have the most trouble applying is the one I just broke, whatever that one is. I just hate writing those big numbers on the card.

[Ruskie]

Well, this might be a bit of a thread jack, but since there're so many rules officials here, could someone please explain to me the rationalle behind these rules when on the green:

1. Penalty for the ball moving after grounding the club. Presumably, since you're allowed to mark/lift the ball, the lie is not a issue.

2. Not being allowed to tap down spike marks, while ball marks are fair game.

Thanks,
Alex.

[AAA]

Well, this might be a bit of a thread jack, but since there're so many rules officials here, could someone please explain to me the rationalle behind these rules when on the green:

1. Penalty for the ball moving after grounding the club. Presumably, since you're allowed to mark/lift the ball, the lie is not a issue.

As the player and club are so close to the ball it is difficult to know exactly what caused the ball to move. Therefore the player is deemed to have been the cause. Remember the rule applies all round the course, including in long grass.

2. Not being allowed to tap down spike marks, while ball marks are fair game.

Thanks,
Alex.

The USGA says:
The Rules of Golf are based on two fundamental principles: (1) play the ball as it lies and (2) play the course as you find it. Permitting the repair of spike marks on a player`s line of play or putt would be contrary to these fundamental principles. Rule 16-1c permits the repair of old hole plugs and ball marks but does not permit the repair of spike damage or other irregularities of surface on the putting green if they are on a player`s line of play or putt or might assist him in his subsequent play of the hole. The distinction lies in the fact that old hole plugs and ball marks are easily identifiable as such, whereas it is impossible to differentiate between spike damage and other irregularities of surface on the putting green. Permitting the repair of spike marks would also inevitably lead to a slower place of play. Please note that proper etiquette recommends that damage to the putting green caused by golf shoe spikes be repaired on completion of the hole by all players, just as a player should fill up and smooth over all holes and footprints made by him before leaving a bunker. We feel that improved education and players` consideration for others rather than a change in the Rules of Golf is the proper solution to the problem.

[Ruskie]

Thank you for your answer. I appreciate the clarifications, but I still have a few points to discuss on this topic.

As the player and club are so close to the ball it is difficult to know exactly what caused the ball to move. Therefore the player is deemed to have been the cause. Remember the rule applies all round the course, including in long grass.

I can understand the reason for this penalty on the rest of the course - it's impossible to recreate the same lie. But, as I mentioned, presumably on the green that is not an issue, since you're already allowed to mark/lift the ball. Are there any other logical reasons why a ball that moved cannot be simply replaced with no penalty?

I just don't see any possible advantage a player could get from moving the ball on the green.

The USGA says:
The Rules of Golf are based on two fundamental principles: (1) play the ball as it lies and (2) play the course as you find it. Permitting the repair of spike marks on a player`s line of play or putt would be contrary to these fundamental principles. Rule 16-1c permits the repair of old hole plugs and ball marks but does not permit the repair of spike damage or other irregularities of surface on the putting green if they are on a player`s line of play or putt or might assist him in his subsequent play of the hole. The distinction lies in the fact that old hole plugs and ball marks are easily identifiable as such, whereas it is impossible to differentiate between spike damage and other irregularities of surface on the putting green. Permitting the repair of spike marks would also inevitably lead to a slower place of play. Please note that proper etiquette recommends that damage to the putting green caused by golf shoe spikes be repaired on completion of the hole by all players, just as a player should fill up and smooth over all holes and footprints made by him before leaving a bunker. We feel that improved education and players` consideration for others rather than a change in the Rules of Golf is the proper solution to the problem.

Again, that makes sense for the rest of the course. Play on the green already has many exemptions that contradict that "play it as it lies" maxim, why not another one?

I don't quite buy the "pace of play" argument here, since it's already incumbent on the player to maintain adequate pace of play. I doubt fixing spike marks would take longer than fixing ball marks.


Cheers,
Alex.

[XTOUR]

Playing today and Player A hits ball off tee across hazard...short cut. Decides he's going to play Provisional from tee box. This is a breach isn't it? Should he not drop ball where original crossed hazard and play ball till he comes to place where original may be?

[Ruskie]

Let's see if I get this right:

You can always replay your shot with stroke and distance penalty, and, if you're not sure where the original ball ended up, you can call it a provisional. If he wasn't sure his ball went into the hazard, he was right to play the provisional. If he was (what's the verbage?) virtually certain his ball went into the hazard, his re-tee couldn't be called provisional and would've been the ball in play, or he could've dropped as per normal hazard rules.

What I'm not sure about is if you hit a provisional and then find the ball in the hazard, can you still use the normal hazard drop instead of using the provisional.

Cheers,
Alex.

[XTOUR]

Didn't know that you can always replay your shot with stroke and distance penalty. Thought that was only for OB.Thought also if it crossed a hazard that's where the next shot should be played. Point of entry.

[goochy]

I'm sure Ruskie is right. With a penalty of one stroke you always have the option to play from the previous spot if your ball is in a Hazard .
Of course with OB or Lost it is your only option

[justsomeguy]

Let's see if I get this right:

You can always replay your shot with stroke and distance penalty, and, if you're not sure where the original ball ended up, you can call it a provisional. If he wasn't sure his ball went into the hazard, he was right to play the provisional.

Not exactly. You can only play a provisional if you think your ball may be lost or OB - not if you think your ball may be in a hazard:

Provisional Ball
A "provisional ball" is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds.

If he was (what's the verbage?) virtually certain his ball went into the hazard, his re-tee couldn't be called provisional and would've been the ball in play, or he could've dropped as per normal hazard rules.

Correct.

What I'm not sure about is if you hit a provisional and then find the ball in the hazard, can you still use the normal hazard drop instead of using the provisional.

If the original ball is found, you cannot use the provisional ball at all - period.

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball.

This does not stop you from replaying another ball from the place where the original ball was last played (i.e., taking a stroke and distance penalty). The idea here is that you must choose your relief option before you know the outcome of any of them.