Compete or just play your own game?

[Kilroy]

Where did I call YOU a sandbagger???

Well, you directed it at me when you quoted my post and said those who feel as I do are all sandbaggers. Anyway I feel this is degrading to a point where I no longer wish to debate it with you.

[mberube]

There is actually a name for those people... SANDBAGGERS!!!!!

Motivation has nothing to do with it. They intentionally don't try unless they are playing for money. That way their handicap is higher and voila... they become 'better players under pressure' and win all the coin. This is exactly why I don't fall for this handicap play for money BS!

Simply explained. Some players play better on adrenaline and stress. Just like some players crash under the same circumstance. I have been called a sandbagger from idiots that never played a game with me or played once in a life time. Normally I’m a 6 handicap but during tournament play I can play as a 2-3 capper. Some people just don’t understand what adrenaline and determination can do to me. Something that I just can’t replicate during regular play. Sandbagging is just jalousy from fellow competitors that cannot relate.

[1972Apex]

Well, you directed it at me when you quoted my post and said those who feel as I do are all sandbaggers. Anyway I feel this is degrading to a point where I no longer wish to debate it with you.

Well who else's post would I quote when I want to make a comment on a statement?
I'm actually stunned that anyone would feel degraded by my comments that one should try just as hard in a practice round being posted for handicap purposes as they do in a money match where that handicap is used.
All of this just reinforces my opinions on handicap play for money...

[1972Apex]

Simply explained. Some players play better on adrenaline and stress. Just like some players crash under the same circumstance. I have been called a sandbagger from idiots that never played a game with me or played once in a life time. Normally I’m a 6 handicap but during tournament play I can play as a 2-3 capper. Some people just don’t understand what adrenaline and determination can do to me. Something that I just can’t replicate during regular play. Sandbagging is just jalousy from fellow competitors that cannot relate.

Well if you can't replicate it during regular play then your handicap is not worth the paper it is printed on. I'll remember that if we ever play you are really a 2-3...

[mberube]

Well if you can't replicate it during regular play then your handicap is not worth the paper it is printed on.

How can you replicate stress and adrenaline during regular play? A 5 dollar game does not boost me to that level like an amount of money I cannot manage losing.

What is your definition of a practice round? To me it's trying different things resulting in bad shots thus higher scores then usual. Don't you play worse during practice rounds?

[1972Apex]

How can you replicate stress and adrenaline during regular play? A 5 dollar game does not boost me to that level like an amount of money I cannot manage losing.

What is your definition of a practice round? To me it's trying different things resulting in bad shots thus higher scores then usual. Don't you play worst during practice rounds?

I can't even comment on this anymore... sorry.

[1972Apex]

Well I think I've learned everything I can from this thread.
Coincidentally I won the first two rounds quite handily in the the Quebec Vintage Motorcycle Trials Championships in the Intermediate Class. The committee is putting considerable pressure on me to move up to Expert right now instead of waiting until the end of the season. I'm just going to tell them I am really still an intermediate because I only ride well in the actual championship points events.

[mberube]

Thought you could not comment on this anymore?

[1972Apex]

Simply explained. Some players play better on adrenaline and stress. Just like some players crash under the same circumstance. I have been called a sandbagger from idiots that never played a game with me or played once in a life time. Normally I’m a 6 handicap but during tournament play I can play as a 2-3 capper. Some people just don’t understand what adrenaline and determination can do to me. Something that I just can’t replicate during regular play. Sandbagging is just jalousy from fellow competitors that cannot relate.

So knowing all the above... when you are playing in competition do you list yourself as a 6 or a 2-3?

[1972Apex]

Thought you could not comment on this anymore?

I was sent a PM by Dan that suggested I should!

[Kilroy]

Actually since you are dragging my PMs into it I feel a need to clarify.
I asked you in the first to please tone down the insults.
You then posted that you could not comment any more
I then PM'd you that nothing prevented you from posting as long as you refrained from the insults.

How you got that I suggested you should is beyond me.

[mberube]

So knowing all the above... when you are playing in competition do you list yourself as a 6 or a 2-3?

I mark my actual handicap witch I follow vigorously but most tourneys I play are none hdcp. Straight up.

There are lots of players on this forum that play better under the gun then there handicap. All of them I know are not sandbaggers as you would describe them. Allen McGee just to name one. We had a discussion about this last year. If you know him, ask him what his take on it is.

[justsomeguy]

The summer I worked at a golf course, one of the other guys on the grounds crew was an aspiring pro golfer, +1 handicap. We went out for a round after work one day, playing straight up. After 12 holes, we were even. I was about a 19 cap at the time. I went on to crumble on the final 6 holes, but those first 12 were probably the competitive highlight of my golfing career (pre Ryder cup, of course).

This was basically a "no-win" situation for the aspiring pro golfer. He was supposed to win - and win easily - so that fact that he eventually did win was pretty much meaningless for him. Realistically in this match only YOU could gain something of any value.

Not competing is like practice.

Frankly I don't get this and I'm not sure I even believe it. Are you trying to say that scoring below par in a non-competitive round would be less satisfying than beating your buddy with an 85?

What I do on the course does not (or should not) affect the score my playing partner ends up with. In reality I play every round against the same competitor - me! If some people use competition against somebody else to motivate them to play better and maintain their focus, then so be it. But if you can't or don't play well without it, then its a crutch. Focus and concentration are supposed to come from within you.

[mberube]

Well if you can't replicate it during regular play then your handicap is not worth the paper it is printed on. I'll remember that if we ever play you are really a 2-3...

Why would that matter since no strokes would be given, right?

[1972Apex]

Why would that matter since no strokes would be given, right?

It actually won't matter because we will never play

[Kilroy]

But if you can't or don't play well without it, then its a crutch. Focus and concentration are supposed to come from within you.

I never actually said I play better in competition. I enjoy it more. It's more fun for me win or lose.

And yes, breaking par would be fun too!

[1972Apex]

Actually since you are dragging my PMs into it I feel a need to clarify.
I asked you in the first to please tone down the insults.
You then posted that you could not comment any more
I then PM'd you that nothing prevented you from posting as long as you refrained from the insults.

How you got that I suggested you should is beyond me.

When I posted that I could not comment anymore I meant it was because I am in disbelief at some of these comments.
No wonder some people like to play for money against handicaps when they KNOW they will shoot better than their handicap. Apparently though that is not sandbagging... you learn something new every day

Secondly I do not believe I have insulted ANYONE in these posts. If anyone is insulted by my comments it may be because the truth stings a bit.

[mberube]

When I posted that I could not comment anymore I meant it was because I am in disbelief at some of these comments.
No wonder some people like to play for money against handicaps when they KNOW they will shoot better than their handicap. Apparently though that is not sandbagging... you learn something new every day

You are missing the point. I don't play as at 2-3 when playing a 5-$10 game. You are just stuck on the sandbagging term.

[mberube]

This was basically a "no-win" situation for the aspiring pro golfer. He was supposed to win - and win easily - so that fact that he eventually did win was pretty much meaningless for him. Realistically in this match only YOU could gain something of any value.


Frankly I don't get this and I'm not sure I even believe it. Are you trying to say that scoring below par in a non-competitive round would be less satisfying than beating your buddy with an 85?

What I do on the course does not (or should not) affect the score my playing partner ends up with. In reality I play every round against the same competitor - me! If some people use competition against somebody else to motivate them to play better and maintain their focus, then so be it. But if you can't or don't play well without it, then its a crutch. Focus and concentration are supposed to come from within you.

I totally agree but for me it’s just doesn’t work that way and I don’t know why. How much would I give to be able to play regularly the game I can play during competition rounds?

[1972Apex]

You are missing the point. I don't play as at 2-3 when playing a 5-$10 game. You are just stuck on the sandbagging term.

I'm definitely missing something LOL! Anyway I don't want to insult you or anyone else in this thread or any other. I know we are all good people here with the best of intentions whenever we play.
It is very interesting to read the different takes, many of which reinforce my opinion of not playing strangers for money
I think I'll stick to playing competitive rounds against people close to my handicap and giving the occasional strokes for fun beer play to buddies whose actual level of play I know LOL!

[mpare]

At the rate you're going, I'd say that's a good thing.

I can't even comment on this anymore... sorry.

[1972Apex]

At the rate your going, I'd say that's a good thing.

Thanks Mike. Your unbiased feedback is always appreciated. We all know YOU never play for money...

[mpare]

I'm not sure how my views are biased. My willingness to play for a little something is well known. Keep in mind too, that I'm the one usually giving out the strokes. At the same time, I have no problem playing with someone who is not inclined to do so. That hardly makes me biased on the subject. To the contrary, I am rather objective in that respect. Where we differ, though, is in your willingness to conclude that everyone who plays better under pressure is a sandbagger. I'd say that some may be (and they are readily identified), but to extend it further to all is unwarranted and does a disservice to those who track their handicaps honestly.

While I'm at it, I should point out that I don't agree with the assumption that if you're not as focused if not playing for something, then your handicap is not being properly tracked. Would you say that Tiger (pre the recent debacles) was dogging it in non-majors when he didn't play as well as he did in the majors? I wouldn't. I'd say he was simply much more focused in the majors. More that that, you can be working on things during your round while still trying to score well. While working out those bugs, the scores might suffer. That doesn't mean that those scores ought not be entered when calculating your handicap. Were that the case, then a lot of scores would never be entered contrary to the requirements of the RCGA.

Thanks Mike. Your unbiased feedback is always appreciated. We all know YOU never play for money...

[1972Apex]

Where we differ, though, is in your willingness to conclude that everyone who plays better under pressure is a sandbagger. I'd say that some may be (and they are readily identified), but to extend it further to all is unwarranted and does a disservice to those who track their handicaps honestly.

Yeah, we're all better under pressure....
That argument about playing better under pressure has been used by sandbaggers to justify their taking money from other people since old Tom Morris was a wee lad. Sorry, I've never bought it and I'm not buying it today.
The whole essense of a handicap is that you should only be able to shoot your handicap once every 4 rounds. It is not supposed to be a measure of your average score, but of your potential. And yet there are people who consistently beat their handicaps when playing competitive rounds. One would then have to assume that their non-competitive 'entered for handicap' rounds are a LOT higher than their money rounds or those competitive rounds would eventually balance out their handicaps. After all, it is only your best 5 out of 20 rounds that go towards your handicap. You would think that with all these matches these people play that they must play for money at least 1 out of 4 times. So their 'better' competitive rounds should make it tougher and tougher to beat their handicap in competition. Somehow it never seems to.
Coincidence? Sorry, I don't believe in them. Anyone who believes that the ability to play under pressure is why they can consistently shoot better than their handicap in a competitive round should take a long look at themselves in the Integrity Mirror.

[leftylucas]

I always try to play my own game. I feel it is the best way to improve. I do enjoy the competition of match play but I cannot control anything that my oponent does so I play my way. The odd occasion will come up when I might play a hole a little differently if my opponent has encountered a real problem but all in all I have to perform. If I play well and come close to my handicap that day then I might come out on top. If I play to improve myself my HC will eventually keep dropping.

[mpare]

Your argument appears predicated on your experience with cheats. Believe it or not the world of golf is not populated by cheats and to reach conclusions about the majority of honest golfers on the basis of a small sample of ne'er do wells is both unfair and illogical.

Let me address some of your points, such as they are:

1. I never said that everyone plays better under pressure. Some people do and some don't. More importantly, even those that play better under pressure don't do so all the time. If someone is always scoring under his handicap, then I would agree with you that there's a problem with his handicap. There are ways to deal with that. The easiest solution is not to play with them.

2. If one plays well in tournaments, then one's handicap will reflect that since tournament scores are kept in the system for a longer period of time. In short, the system tracks with particular interest what you're doing in tournaments. An informal way to "adjust" handicaps is to do what my friends at the Natanis Golf Club do with their weekly skins games. Those games are played 7 days a week. One or two guys (the most computer savvy ones) track everyone's scores and adjust handicaps on the basis of what the person does during the skins games. Fool us once, good on you, but you won't do it often. More to the point, though, is the fact that after years of experience the boys have learned that 99% of the guys properly log their scores and no adjustment is needed. In short, most golfers are honest in registering their numbers.

3. Handicaps are not calculated on 5 best differentials out of the last 20 scores posted, but on the basis of the 10 lowest. It's a small point but that has the effect of ensuring that the cap is not skewed too low by exceptionally low scores.

4. You didn't address the points that I made in my previous post so I assume that you agree with me that golfers play with different intensity and focus depending on the circumstances. Regardless of that, though, all proper scores should be posted as required by the RCGA (Golf Canada).

Yeah, we're all better under pressure....
That argument about playing better under pressure has been used by sandbaggers to justify their taking money from other people since old Tom Morris was a wee lad. Sorry, I've never bought it and I'm not buying it today.
The whole essense of a handicap is that you should only be able to shoot your handicap once every 4 rounds. It is not supposed to be a measure of your average score, but of your potential. And yet there are people who consistently beat their handicaps when playing competitive rounds. One would then have to assume that their non-competitive 'entered for handicap' rounds are a LOT higher than their money rounds or those competitive rounds would eventually balance out their handicaps. After all, it is only your best 5 out of 20 rounds that go towards your handicap. You would think that with all these matches these people play that they must play for money at least 1 out of 4 times. So their 'better' competitive rounds should make it tougher and tougher to beat their handicap in competition. Somehow it never seems to.
Coincidence? Sorry, I don't believe in them. Anyone who believes that the ability to play under pressure is why they can consistently shoot better than their handicap in a competitive round should take a long look at themselves in the Integrity Mirror.

[mberube]

That’s exactly right and that is why there is a little check box (Tournament Score) on the RCGA site when entering your adjusted scores. I would also add, If I recall correctly, that the OVGA order of merit is calculated with you tournament registered scores and not your RCGA handicap because both are different.

[jonf]

This was basically a "no-win" situation for the aspiring pro golfer. He was supposed to win - and win easily - so that fact that he eventually did win was pretty much meaningless for him. Realistically in this match only YOU could gain something of any value.
.

You're totally right on that count. I really just tell that story to stroke my own ego. I know it really meant nothing, other than to give me a confidence boost. Still....it's a good story to tell people.

[1972Apex]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Mike.
Just for the record, my feelings on this are not predicated on my experience with cheats because I don't play in tournaments or for money. They are mostly from reading people on this site argue whether they should get 1 stroke or not; talking about money won; how they will only play for money because they can only perform when something is on the line etc. It obviously means a lot to some people.
I know a lot of people in this thread have commented they play better under pressure than when it is for fun. My argument is that it's easy to perform under pressure if one is getting more strokes than they really should be. If someone is consistently playing well under pressure and taking money from other people in handicapped match play I can almost guarantee it is not because they 'are good under pressure'. It's because something stinks.
I should note that I got quite slammed one time a number of years ago because I suggested that someone on the OG Tour who was shooting consistently low scores in relation to his handicap was cheating. The following year that person was caught doing exactly what I said he was doing.

[Kilroy]

Your argument appears predicated on your experience with cheats.

I'd have to agree with that. Someone was cheated in a competition or two and swore "never again" methinks. I can certainly understand how that would sour one's perspective.