Analism??? Club lies??

[Chieflongtee]

Should you be overly concerned about he lies of your clubs??

See following post from Tom wishon on Shoptalk. Also keep in mind that you will ever hardly find a perfect even lie on a golf course.


RE: ShopTalk: Measuring Lie http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shoptalk/message/75059



Up until I got about 10 yrs of golf club design and R&D under my belt, I too used to stew and worry over the small things I would measure and notice in my work. But as I did more R&D and more design work, I started to learn that there could be tons of minutia that I could waste my time on and miss the more important bigger picture. It was from this that I coined the phrase that I use at times in my writing – “we who design golf clubs and research their performance now have the ability to measure things that golfers simply do not have the ability to note or detect in the form of any visible or significant difference in the performance of the clubs.” This was one of the reasons I chose to use terms like “Practical” and “Common Sense” in the titles of my books on clubfitting. Over the past 15 yrs I have so much wanted clubmakers to learn to focus on the things that make the most visible game improvement and forget the others that won’t or don’t.

With respect to lie fitting, the application of practicality and common sense has led me to these simple realizations which years of use has proven is viable.

1. Any manner of lie fitting is better than no lie fitting for a golfer who has always bought standard made clubs off the rack
2. Proper administration of a lie board fitting will work fine for getting a golfer into a properly fit set of irons for lie as long as the golfer does not have an early release and makes contact between the board and the iron on the BACK of the sole. For such golfers, the lie detector or ink mark on the back of the ball is better.
3. Lie board fitting with every other iron is ok if you need to save some time – doing it with every iron is better. This is because we all can make little different swings with respect to our position at impact for various reasons related to the clubs being different lengths.
4. If the golfer has ANY hesitation about hitting shots off a hard surface like a lie board, get him off that board and having the golfer hit the test shots off grass using the lie detector method or ink on the back of the ball

We can debate the minutia until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, as long as each iron is fit within 1* up or flat of being perfect for the lie, this is not ever going to harm the golfer – with the exception of the tour player level of ball striker or the very high swing speed golfer. The greater the distance on the shot, the more a 1* error in lie at impact translates into meaningful differences in azimuth of the shot.

TOM

[dmartin]

Tall people don't dig the heal of the upright irons of today.
At 5'8" with the stop fade bias in irons i've ripped some nasty divots
and been way way off line.
Just check how lie specs have gone in the last 5 years.

[Chieflongtee]

Any manner of lie fitting is better than no lie fitting for a golfer who has always bought standard made clubs off the rack

Tall people don't dig the heal of the upright irons of today.
At 5'8" with the stop fade bias in irons i've ripped some nasty divots
and been way way off line.
Just check how lie specs have gone in the last 5 years.

I am not an OEM guy but you have to admire Ping for their colour coded irons.

http://www.ping.com/uploadedFiles/Cu...Code_Chart.pdf

OTOH you can always see as fitter or have your clubs bent or shortened. or both.

[Kona Golf]

Chief, I'm not sure where you are going with this but here is another thought.

Upright Lies make the balls go left ...

Most golfers slice the ball ... go right.

Why do you suppose the OEM's have made modern clubs more upright?

So....., If you do not fall into the Slice category, do lies become much more important?

Not sure if this is being Anal or Not but the wrong lie don't make the right swing ?

[Chieflongtee]

Hey Jim. How is business in your neck of the woods?
I don't see why you're saying that OEM have made clubs that much more upright. I was perusing the Callaway website and most 5 irons are at 61-61,5 degrees lie angles which is not terribly upright imho. The point is was trying to make is that once you are within +- 1 degrees of your optimal lie angle(once you have been fitted) then you are doing just fine. That is basically what Wishon is saying in his quote.

[Big Johnny69]

Hey Jim. How is business in your neck of the woods?
I don't see why you're saying that OEM have made clubs that much more upright. I was perusing the Callaway website and most 5 irons are at 61-61,5 degrees lie angles which is not terribly upright imho. The point is was trying to make is that once you are within +- 1 degrees of your optimal lie angle(once you have been fitted) then you are doing just fine. That is basically what Wishon is saying in his quote.

So would it be safe to say, unless you require a drastic change in lies, off the rack should work for most people??? I hardly ever hear of anyone going more than +/- 2* either way, where most are a mere +/- 1*.

[downhillslider]

+ or - 1* I believe is substancial in the 7 through pw on full swings. As mentioned previously in another thread, your wedges should be lied to your personal preference to accomodate your less than full shot arsenal.

[Chieflongtee]

So would it be safe to say, unless you require a drastic change in lies, off the rack should work for most people??? I hardly ever hear of anyone going more than +/- 2* either way, where most are a mere +/- 1*.

Not exactly what I am saying. I am saying that +-1 is good enough once you have been fitted. It is very very hard to get it exactly bang on.
Keep on mind that you will hardly ever find a perfect lie on the golf course. And if you grip down you are also tinkering with lie angles. Same if you are playing a wet soggy course where your feet sink in.I am 5'11 and my wrist to floor is 36.5. according to Ping I should be hitting their white dot irons.(3 degrees upright) So no it is not safe to say, unless you require a drastic change in lies, off the rack should work for most people.

I started this thread because there was an argument about which method was bestfor fitting lies i.e lie board or lie detector with a sharpoe or China marker. (http://www.golftek.com/images/LieDetector.pdf )

I will take it a step further as one guy I know used to adjust his club lies until he hit them straight. He did not care to know if his was iron was 63 or 60 or what have you or that the mark left on the sole was exactly in the center.

An imo that is a bit what TLT does as all lies are similar from one series to the next. The only variable is club length but I am getting off topic.


[QUOTE]
We can debate the minutia until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, as long as each iron is fit within 1* up or flat of being perfect for the lie, this is not ever going to harm the golfer –
[/QUOTE]

[downhillslider]

[QUOTE=Chieflongtee;352685]Not exactly what I am saying. I am saying that +-1 is good enough once you have been fitted. It is very very hard to get it exactly bang on.
Keep on mind that you will hardly ever find a perfect lie on the golf course. And if you grip down you are also tinkering with lie angles. Same if you are playing a wet soggy course where your feet sink in.I am 5'11 and my wrist to floor is 36.5. according to Ping I should be hitting their white dot irons.(3 degrees upright)So no it is not safe to say, unless you require a drastic change in lies, off the rack should work for most people.

I started this thread because there was an argument about which method was bestfor fitting lies i.e lie board or lie detector with a sharpoe or China marker. (http://www.golftek.com/images/LieDetector.pdf )

I will take it a step further as one guy I know used to adjust his club lies until he hit them straight. He did not care to know if his was iron was 63 or 60 or what have you or that the mark left on the sole was exactly in the center.

An imo that is a bit what TLT does as all lies are similar from one series to the next. The only variable is club length but I am getting off topic.

We can debate the minutia until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, as long as each iron is fit within 1* up or flat of being perfect for the lie, this is not ever going to harm the golfer –
[/QUOTE]

Ping got a lot of mileage out of that STATIC LIE chart for years and now their cart as a lie board ??? OOPPS !!! Not even any damage control required. Amazing !

I totally agree with your take on bending the club until it goes straight, regardless of the number. Two things come to mind though with this method. How the hell am I suppose to bring my Scotland to a range to do this, because hitting in to a net is out of the question, and you probably would have to change the lie before you would go out to play everytime because based on my experiences, every day brings a different swing !!

[Chieflongtee]

Ping got a lot of mileage out of that STATIC LIE chart for years and now their cart as a lie board ??? OOPPS !!! Not even any damage control required. Amazing !

I totally agree with your take on bending the club until it goes straight, regardless of the number. Two things come to mind though with this method. How the hell am I suppose to bring my Scotland to a range to do this, because hitting in to a net is out of the question, and you probably would have to change the lie before you would go out to play everytime because based on my experiences, every day brings a different swing !!

[/QUOTE]

Well a static fitting is better than no fitting at all.
And club length plays a a role and no one mesures the same way

Get a portable from Mitchell
https://mitchellgolf.com/mg/viewItem.asp?idProduct=1096

I am thinking of building me a samll wooden box for that purpose.

and you probably would have to change the lie before you would go out to play everytime because based on my experiences, every day brings a different swing

Very true but straight is +-

[Kona Golf]

Hey Jim. How is business in your neck of the woods?
I don't see why you're saying that OEM have made clubs that much more upright. I was perusing the Callaway website and most 5 irons are at 61-61,5 degrees lie angles which is not terribly upright imho. The point is was trying to make is that once you are within +- 1 degrees of your optimal lie angle(once you have been fitted) then you are doing just fine. That is basically what Wishon is saying in his quote.

Business is unpredictable these days. Repairs and adjustments are fair, but as you know I focus on component distribution.

Pre 1970 the 5 iron was 59 degrees. 2 - 2.5 Degrees would be considered out of spec.

+ or - 1 Degree can be 2 degrees between irons. Which could easily be noticeable, especially on short irons. The shorter the iron, the more effect lie has on direction.

However, if the length is correct in relation to the lie angle, (TLT) then more upright or flatter build does not matter. That of course is another discussion all together.

[Chieflongtee]

Pre 1970 the 5 iron was 59 degrees. 2 - 2.5 Degrees would be considered out of sp

I got this old Maltby book where all the specs from previous clubs are listed.(Data from 1974 design book) Most 5 irons are at 60 degrees except for for 3( Ram ,Royal and spalding at 59,59,59.75 respectively) A Dunlop is listed at 61 .
People were shorter then therfore they needed flatter clubs +-1
Anybody can walk with a size shoes 2 points smaller than what they really need. Does not mean they will be comfortable

Ping got a lot of mileage out of that STATIC LIE chart for years and now their cart as a lie board ??? OOPPS !!! Not even any damage control required. Amazing

In my case they are very close to bang on. My actual lie angle on my 5 iron is 62.5 as to where they are suggesting 63 for my build. But of course dynamic fitting is much better than static

[danscustom]

http://www.danscustomgolfshop.com/Length_Lie.html

Look at the presentation towards the bottom.
Scrol thru the presentation for a better understanding of length and lie.

To me +/- 1 degree is no where near satisfactory. A lesser skilled player cannot get better if he cannot control his direction. One degree on a PW from a 100 yards is a 22 foot miss. If your 9 is flat 1 degree and your PW is up 1 degree you have a 44 foot miss on 2 well executed shots???

[downhillslider]

http://www.danscustomgolfshop.com/Length_Lie.html

Look at the presentation towards the bottom.
Scrol thru the presentation for a better understanding of length and lie.

To me +/- 1 degree is no where near satisfactory. A lesser skilled player cannot get better if he cannot control his direction. One degree on a PW from a 100 yards is a 22 foot miss. If your 9 is flat 1 degree and your PW is up 1 degree you have a 44 foot miss on 2 well executed shots???

Beautifull !

[Chieflongtee]

http://www.danscustomgolfshop.com/Length_Lie.html

Look at the presentation towards the bottom.
Scrol thru the presentation for a better understanding of length and lie.

To me +/- 1 degree is no where near satisfactory. A lesser skilled player cannot get better if he cannot control his direction. One degree on a PW from a 100 yards is a 22 foot miss. If your 9 is flat 1 degree and your PW is up 1 degree you have a 44 foot miss on 2 well executed shots???

If the golfer grips down on a club what happens to your theory? If the lie of the course is 1 degree uphill should the golfer aim 22 feet away from the pin?. If the clubfitter cut down the shaft 1/16 more or less than what you suggest(as your method is based on a mathematical formula and cutting a shaft for example exactly at 37.33 is not imho an exact science unless you have access to high tech machinery). Moreover the lies in your method can be off +1 even when adjusted by the clubfitter. So I would think that +-1 in your method is just as good and within tolerances. And I believe that you strongly advocate that the lies not be adjusted and that ball flight rules over where the club makes contact with the ground. Correct?

Don't know where you got your 22 feet from. It is more like 3.5 yards
http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/lie1.php?ref=

Where it makes a bigger ddifference is when the ground is struck before the ball

[habsfan]

extending my irons gave me my 1" Up i was looking for, different ways to tinker with lie, without physically adjusting the heads.

[danscustom]

extending my irons gave me my 1" Up i was looking for, different ways to tinker with lie, without physically adjusting the heads.

An inch would give you more like 2*

Chief, the 22 feet came from Ralph Maltby and is a combination of side spin and direction. The side spin dynamics of the ball contribute. Just giving info that I had been given by a very respected Clubmaker (Mr. Maltby) and I tend to believe that his testing resulted in this.

There is always tolerances in everything and yes lie and length are included. I just believe that the more correct the overall set is, the better the odds of success.

[Chieflongtee]

Hi Dan. 22 feet is with a toe up 4 degrees-9 iron-115 yards 48 degree loft from target.(Maltby's giof club design 3rd edition page 329) 18 feet pull left +4 feet curve left)

The first post is a quote from Wishon which clearly states +-1. Therefore a errant shot would be off by approx 5.5 feet if the lies were off by 1 degree. Not uncommon to see the ball off by more than 5.5 feet from the hole even by the best players in the world. Moreover sidespin is hardlly inexistant on a 9 iron and more.
And as you know the long irons are hardly afffected by lie angles.

I stand by Wishon on that one.

We can debate the minutia until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, as long as each iron is fit within 1* up or flat of being perfect for the lie, this is not ever going to harm the golfer – with the exception of the tour player level of ball striker or the very high swing speed golfer. The greater the distance on the shot, the more a 1* error in lie at impact translates into meaningful differences in azimuth of the shot.

[danscustom]

Thanks for the feedback, My quote was from his Master's class and was verbal, so he either misquoted or I heard wrong. Yes 1 degree is not a big miss, but a miss is a miss and my only goal is to eliminate as many variables. This said, I build my clubs as accurate as possible and TLT does this.
It is still a dynamic swing with flaws, so no every shot is not always there. But if I can drive the player into more condsistency by being concerned about lies and lengths , then this is what I will always do. Of course we all have to build inside our tolerances.