Are you a Taylor Made hater?

[speeler_kda]

I've been following an interesting debate on golfwrx.

Seems like there are a lot of Taylor Made haters who accuse the company of smoke and mirror marketing. Here's the basis of the argument (I'm paraphrasing their words):

- TM built their brand by paying players to use their gear, not because of the quality. Before the pay-for-play days, Mizuno irons ruled the Tour.

- TM retail lines are mass produced in China and the quality is sub-standard. Lie, loft, swingweights out of wack. This includes the TP line, which TM would have you believe is played on Tour but really is not. The real Tour issue gear Stamped "B" w/ "Txxxx" on the hosel is made to much tighter specs and fetches top dollar on Ebay and various swap shops.

- TM releases model upgrades too frequently (ie. R9 to r9 Supertri...) leaving loyal customers with "obscelete" equipment in no time.

- TM produces high quality clubs (ie. Mike Weir's forged R7 irons) but only releases them in Japan/Asia. Check out tourspecgolf.com. Why snub the North American market?

In general, I agree with some of these points but then again, I have an R7 425 (retail version) and love it. Also, sure seems like a lot of non-TM pros swing a TM driver...

Anyone care to chime in?

[davevandyk]

- TM built their brand by paying players to use their gear, not because of the quality. Before the pay-for-play days, Mizuno irons ruled the Tour.

- TM releases model upgrades too frequently (ie. R9 to r9 Supertri...) leaving loyal customers with "obscelete" equipment in no time.

Anyone care to chime in?

These are two things I find interesting. Firstly the comment that says Mizuno ruled the world before TM started to pay for play. I agree that it has helped there #'s a lot, but I think their marketing strategy has been the drive behind their dominance. Their top-end staffers haven't over-performed, outside of Y.E. Yang, when was the last major won by a staffer? I think it was Goosen in '04 which would be pretty unbelievable that they are still the #1 company.

I think that TM makes great clubs across the board in every category. I think they are in the top 2 in every category, which no other company is close to, although Callaway would likely be #3 or 4 in each category.

On the idea of releasing clubs too frequent, I don't understand it. Last year I bought the R9 and shortly after the R9 460 came out. The only way a club can be obsolete is if the new club is an improvement. Take last year, they had a R9 420 and 460, Burner. Hasn't Cobra, Callaway, Nike always released 2-3 drivers a year? Titleist 2-3 every two years?

Even if TM does put out a TON of product, does that mean you dislike them because they give you variety? You don't have to buy every one. Let's be honest, there is only small improvements from 1 year to the next, so why not buy your driver/irons/etc in the fall for the following year or do the unthinkable and use your clubs for 2 years this way you would cut your expenses basically in half.

[spackler]

- TM built their brand by paying players to use their gear, not because of the quality. Before the pay-for-play days, Mizuno irons ruled the Tour.

All companies pay for play, TM has been especially aggressive paying for driver usage on tour, but they all pay.

- TM retail lines are mass produced in China and the quality is sub-standard. Lie, loft, swingweights out of wack. This includes the TP line, which TM would have you believe is played on Tour but really is not. The real Tour issue gear Stamped "B" w/ "Txxxx" on the hosel is made to much tighter specs and fetches top dollar on Ebay and various swap shops.

Almost all companies' retail lines are mass produced in China. Ping is the only OEM that still makes clubs in the USA, and even then just their irons and putters are made there. The driver, fw and hybrid heads are all made in China. Also, just because things are made in China doesn't mean they are substandard.

All OEMs also have built in 'tolerances' for their club specs. +/- 1* means a 10* driver could be anywhere from 9* to 11*, it could also mean gaps as low as 2* and as high as 6* between irons in the same set. The tour stuff is not made to tighter specs, it's just measured and identified as spec and then pulled from their regular production lines.

- TM releases model upgrades too frequently (ie. R9 to r9 Supertri...) leaving loyal customers with "obscelete" equipment in no time.

They are for sure the worst at this.

- TM produces high quality clubs (ie. Mike Weir's forged R7 irons) but only releases them in Japan/Asia. Check out tourspecgolf.com. Why snub the North American market?

Again, many of the OEMs do the same thing. Take Ping, which makes most of their irons in their foundry in Arizona. They've just released the 'Anser' irons, their first mass production forged irons. An American company that makes most of their product in America releasing their first forged irons to....Japan. Not available in North America. Callaway has different, higher end, product in Japan too. I'm sure if North Americans would pay for this stuff, they'd release it here.


On balance, I wouldn't say TM is much different than any other OEM company. They're probably bigger, but not really different.

[quinner]

I personally don't play Taylormade, but I have in the past and I think they make just as good quality as any of the other OEMs. But to be honest I have never really looked into it that much.

They just seem to market and push their stuff a little more aggressively than some of the other companies. Callaway is really starting to market their new equipment this year, which I happen to hate.

I do find it weird that it seems that they are constantly releasing new drivers. I personally don't see the point. Most of the other companies release their new gear in the winter / spring and MAYBE one summer release, but it seems as though Taylormade releases their Amazing new equipment in the Winter / spring and then in the summer they release two new drivers. Just seems like too much for me.

So to somewhat answer your OP, I don't hate them I just find they release too much stuff.

[jeffc]

I'm a lover not a hater. I have played a lot of their drivers, irons, and wedges. My current bag has a driver, 3 wood, rescue and wedges all from TM. The one area I think they are a little week in is the irons.

Basically, what Spackler said.

I like the fact they release so many clubs, especially Drivers since 6 months after its release I can pick up a used one at a fraction of the cost it was new.

The other thing I will say about TM is that they are one of the most innovative companies out there. Whether or not you believe in its usefulness, they have been extremely innovative with regards to metal heads, movable weights, adjustable face angles and rescue clubs.

[duhast]

agreed. They bring innovation that is unique to their company that no one else has offered, party why they are so popular. Some say the MWT or FCT is a gimmick, but it is really too subjective to say something like that. For some types of players ithose things may not make much difference, but for others its a godsend. The fact that they release stuff in japan that doesnt make it here is slightly annoying, however they have a huge varietiy of clubs and are constantly looking to improve with new and unseen technology. Their MB Smoke irons and Tour Preferred irons are great clubs, check em out. Overall, I believe them and titleist are a step ahead of everyone else, and I use taylormade stuff because of the variety and performance, and callaway ** me off too much when i had club issues!

[jeffc]

funny thing is, people say they release too many clubs - and then get mad when they don't release all the clubs they do in Japan, in North America too.

The car companies do this, technology companies, etc. sell different products to different markets. Trust me, if TM thought they could make $ releasing more clubs in North America, do you think they wouldn't?

[downhillslider]

Nice to see some people are starting to see through the smoke and mirrors of an enormous marketing machine that costs mega $$$ that you, the consumer of such products, pay for at the retail level.

But heh, if it says TaylorMade or Callaway or Titleist, or any other company that markets there product with a budget to the tune of well over 35%, and you seriously and honestly believe that that product is superior, well, I say go for it ! because the narrow mindedness and fixation on a name brand based totally on what you believe in, are worthy of each other.

I have worked on all the name brand ones, and I can fill a room with some of the stuff that I have encounterd over the years, stuff that would make you cringe and wonder how could this be ? These are top of the line sticks ! Yup, top of the assembly line sticks with grips installed crooked, even using a laser ( that is used by a human ! ) up to 4* difference or as little as 1* in loft between 2 clubs, identical lies in 4 of 8 clubs in a set, 7 and 8 irons that have 1 gr. difference in head weight,drivers that say 10.5* and measure 11.5* in the middle of the clubface and measure 13.5* 1/4" above the center and 9* 1/4" bellow the center, shafts in woods that are made up to look like high end upgrades ( amazing what you can do with silk screening and a can of paint ! )......

[BlueMan]

At the end of the day the best players in the world make enough money where they really don't care which company will give them the most money to play their product. They simply play what clubs they feel suit them the best. And the best for them usually mean Taylormade. Nobody forces the best players in the world to play these clubs they CHOOSE to play them because they simply ARE the best. If your career revolves around giving yourself the best edge possible against the competition, why would you lose that edge to go to another company? It simply makes no sense what so ever. The best play the best, and right now Taylormade is far ahead of the competition and show no signs of slowing down.

Did the commercials get through to you or do I have to say it again?

More than Callaway,Cleveland, Cobra, Nike and Ping.....COMBINED. TAYLORMADE The # 1 Driver In Golf!!

[downhillslider]

Thanks for the narrow minded comments. You are obviously not aware of how the game is played. MONEY TALKS !! The pros play clubs that you or I can't buy because they don't make them for retail. Get your hands on some Tour Issue equipment and you will see the difference in quality compared to the stuff the put in the stores.

You are correct in noting that there careers depend on there equipment choices and that is why the pros clubs are so different, in fact the only thing that is the same is the name on it.

Phil's Callaway's look like no other Callaway iron on the market because that's what Phil likes to see when he looks down at the ball.

I could remember not that long ago that Tiger's irons were special forgings from Japan with the NIKE logo stamped on it.

I own a TM 580 XD Tour Issue that amazingly resembles the pear shape look Titleist made famous. When did TM ever make a pear shaped driver ? It tends to be the head shape of choice preffered by the pros.

These guys can get whatever they want when it comes to there equipment. At the end of the day it's all in the name and some companies are prepared to spend there way to the top and make you believe whatever they throw out there.

[BlueMan]

Narrow mindedness is saying that people all around the world are getting sets where 4 of 8 irons are the same loft and their grips are all installed wrong. The only people who hate on Taylormade are the players who don't have the game to play them PERIOD!!

You say you want variety....Taylormade gives you variety then you say your equipment is obsolete. You say you want innovation then you say it's to complicated that leads to manufacturing errors. There is no favoring the slasher with an endless line of excuses. End of story.

Sure the players on tour play clubs we can't get our hands on, but those clubs they play are more often then not made and manufactured by Taylormade. This is part of the reason so many people trust their equipment.

[downhillslider]

Narrow mindedness is saying that people all around the world are getting sets where 4 of 8 irons are the same loft and their grips are all installed wrong. The only people who hate on Taylormade are the players who don't have the game to play them PERIOD!!

You say you want variety....Taylormade gives you variety then you say your equipment is obsolete. You say you want innovation then you say it's to complicated that leads to manufacturing errors. There is no favoring the slasher with an endless line of excuses. End of story.

Sure the players on tour play clubs we can't get our hands on, but those clubs they play are more often then not made and manufactured by Taylormade. This is part of the reason so many people trust their equipment.

You should have taken a little more time to reply. That way , you would have posted something that was a little more relevant. 4 irons of the same loft ! . where do you see this posted ?

The stuff that TM offers to consumers as absolutely nothing to do what there SPONSORED players use. It's an assembly line product that is mass produced ! Plain and simple. You can't argue that.

The reason why so many people purshase there stuff is because the ones who do have been inondated and brainwashed into believing that there is no other choice, brought on by the powers of MARKETING !!!

It's called BRAND LOYALTY, and if it works for you and others , fine , so be it. But don't go around beating your chest claiming that there is no other choice.

Sounds to me like you drank the TM Kool-Aid.

Cheers

[duhast]

well thats why if you have the money you avoid the assembly line stuff all together and get custom fitted, but for most golfers out there those inaccuracies you were speaking of on the assembly line clubs wont make much of any noticeable difference, however if you do get custom fitted it really wouldnt matter what club you play because any company whose clubs are it to your specs would do the same thing...as far as assembly line stuff goes imo TM is the leader, for now i cant really afford to get fitted and stuff, but im sure if i did then it wouldnt matter what company i went with it would all be good!

[BlueMan]

Me using Taylormade and you using something else is the difference between me being a proven tournament winner and you being forever stuck between a single digit player and a trunk slammer. If your a high level player you play Taylormade, Titleist, and Callaway. No other company offers anything near as good as these company's do. If you want to blame marketing for your hate of players equipment so be it.

From now and until next time. May the TM kool-aid be cold. And your birdie putts fall!!

BlueMan

[UpperCanada8]

That logic constitutes JB Holmes switching to Taylormade and winning the slam. Fundamental derivatives are missing from your equation. I assume you have an R9... and by all means pardon me if I am wrong, this great increase of technology called FCT has allowed you to change your driver before every round... but do you? I'm also all ears for a good explanation aside from trunk slammers single digit handicappers explaining why exactly Taylormade irons are the be all and end all?

Oh yeah, the best golfer/philanderer in the world plays nike... I don't think that'll mean anything though.

[justsomeguy]

Me using Taylormade and you using something else is the difference between me being a proven tournament winner and you being forever stuck between a single digit player and a trunk slammer. If your a high level player you play Taylormade, Titleist, and Callaway. No other company offers anything near as good as these company's do.

I can't believe people actually believe the quality of a golf club is determined by the number of PGA pros playing them. Let me remind you that Woods plays Nike, Harrington plays Wilson, Ogilvy plays Cobra, Vijay plays Cleveland, Furyk plays Srixon, etc., etc., etc. Virtually every major club manufacturer has a "high level player" using their equipment - because they are paid to do so.

I don't like Taylor Made and it has nothing to do with their marketing strategy, product performance or production quality. After several bad customer service experiences I decided I would never buy their products again. I'm old-fashioned that way.

[Break68]

Blueman, I was wondering...if you like TM so much, why is it your "What's in the bag?" shows that you play Wilson irons?

I play Callaway, but if I could afford KZG's I would get Don Irving to build me a set and fill my whole bag with KZG products.
I am not saying custom made clubs are expensive, just saying I don't have the $$ right now.

[setter02]

The only people who hate on Taylormade are the players who don't have the game to play them PERIOD!!

Last time I looked, TM had more Game Improvement Irons out then anyone other then Adams. I would say that if you don't have the game, play Taylor made.

I dislike them from the stand point that I would have to pay a huge upgrade for shafts I can actually use. Sub 50 gram shafts, yuck .

Secondly, they release TP line gear at a huge mark up, and then release more and more saying it is the latest and greatest.

TM has made some solid gear, they just space it out like 3-4 years apart. So if you span the past 6 years, you could make a pretty respectable bag.

But TM has nothing on Titleist.

[sharkhark]

I used to hate them..for all the reason already given...but the reality is alot of their stuff is good...really good. I gave in and got a few TM drivers in last two years and its good stuff. I just got a set of 07 r7 tp's..and man what a great forgiving pkg of playability.
I cannot hate anymoe. Yes they have moveable weights and gimmicks that dont really help that much and over saturate..but then i get stuff cheaper as so much comes out..i just dont buy at full pop when launched. Sales or used.

[Gropper]

Hi my name is Gropper and yes I am a Taylor Made hater!

[mikelaurin]

love my taylormade burners and z wedges ,Ping are now made outside of the States brought back and assembled in Arizona

[downhillslider]

I used to hate them..for all the reason already given...but the reality is alot of their stuff is good...really good. I gave in and got a few TM drivers in last two years and its good stuff. I just got a set of 07 r7 tp's..and man what a great forgiving pkg of playability.
I cannot hate anymoe. Yes they have moveable weights and gimmicks that dont really help that much and over saturate..but then i get stuff cheaper as so much comes out..i just dont buy at full pop when launched. Sales or used.

You are one of the fortunate ones. Perhaps they were assembled on a Wednesday in the late morning. They are a nice piece of work and do you well by the sounds of it.

The head on the R7 TP is well designed and well made but not everyones cup of tea. Where things start to go wrong is in the assembly. Not enough attention to detail , lack of quality control and a lack of options to get the perfect fit. These are the perils of an assembly line and mass production.

The reason the OEM's are sparse in these ares is because it costs $$$. That would add to the already outrageous prices they charge for them to maitain there profit margin.

It's no secret that there heads are manufactured in the same foundries in Asia, as are most of the OEM stuff, and including Maltby, Golfworks and Wishon, who has had several of his offerings make the Golf Digest Hot List in recent years.

Hey, " Bogey Golf", let the folks in on the work I did, err, had to be done for you on your R7 TP's to get to a reasonable level of consistency throughout the set.

I guess his irons were leftovers from the previous season and sold off as is and, were probably made on a Monday.

[Bravesox]

Wake Up!...it is all preference, i love TM but at the same time i understand why some people dont play TM. demo/hit everything you can, find what you like and play it.

[knickers]

You are one of the fortunate ones. Perhaps they were assembled on a Wednesday in the late morning. They are a nice piece of work and do you well by the sounds of it.

The head on the R7 TP is well designed and well made but not everyones cup of tea. Where things start to go wrong is in the assembly. Not enough attention to detail , lack of quality control and a lack of options to get the perfect fit. These are the perils of an assembly line and mass production.

The reason the OEM's are sparse in these ares is because it costs $$$. That would add to the already outrageous prices they charge for them to maitain there profit margin.

It's no secret that there heads are manufactured in the same foundries in Asia, as are most of the OEM stuff, and including Maltby, Golfworks and Wishon, who has had several of his offerings make the Golf Digest Hot List in recent years.

Hey, " Bogey Golf", let the folks in on the work I did, err, had to be done for you on your R7 TP's to get to a reasonable level of consistency throughout the set.

I guess his irons were leftovers from the previous season and sold off as is and, were probably made on a Monday.

So as a clubmaker. Would you say it doesn't matter if you buy OEM's, Just get fitted by a certified clubmaker ?
And for those of us that cant afford to be fitted. What OEM's you have worked on would you say seem to be the most consistent in quality in your opinion ?

[mcateer73]

WOW, never realized there was such a hate on out there for TM.

I am now a TM man, having moved from a set of Snake Eyes. I have not had alot of opportunity to demo to many others. Hoving said that, at this point they seem to work for me.

Although I would welcome the opportunity to be converted if someone has a extra set lying around they want to part with preferbly Mizuno (lol) thoug

Seriously though, I think if you buy retail and buy the upper end, most of them are very similar.

[downhillslider]

I received a TM R7 Limited last week in lieu of payment from a customer that I did some work for. Realizing that a buddy had the exact same club, I went and picked it up so I could compare the two and here is what I found. Both clubs have the screws in the same positions, LH, 10,5*, "R" flex Matrix Ozik Zcon 5.5 MOI


#1 45.5"long D3 swingweight 10.5* loft in center 1*hook 239cpmbutt 392cpmtip

#2 45.5"long D2 swingweight 10* loft in center 1.5* hook 234cpm 387cpm


To me as a clubmaker, this represents quite a substancial difference. If you were to take club #1 for a test drive, liked it and walked away with a brand new one (club #2), or visa versa, you would be in for quite a surprise.

Both heads are close but depending on your swing, the face angle difference is major considering that other heads might be .5* hook when you require 1.5* hook. That whole deg. is huge. The 1/2* of loft is minor but one must consider where on the clubface the ball is struck most often. Now that will make difference in your launch angle and spin rate. We are trying to extracate every possible yard out of the swing that you posess. Add up all of these tangible little factors and it translates into the maximum possible. After that, then you could get in better golf shape and take some lessons to maximize even more.

Clumakers have the luxury of hand picking components that are bang on to your requirements.It's simple physics. You can only hit the ball so far with a certain velocity genrated by your swingspeed as long as you have the correct specifications for the head.

The shaft is a another area of concern. It has long been known that the OEM's install lower quality shafts in there stock drivers and woods, otherwise you pay a premium witch puts your $300+ driver in the $450 +++ range , depending on what shaft you choose or need and if they even offer it. Clubmakers should have the ability to pinpoint a frequency that woks for you, and based on your swing profile can match a shaft with a similar bend profile and feel that you like. These shafts in the R7's are far from smilar because of mass production and if these were the real McCoy, they would be a lot closer in specs because the after market ones are not cheap, hence the tight tolerances. Again clubmakers only by the after market version and should have the ability to tweak them to your specs.

Last night, when we both waggled each club, we noticed quite a difference even doing this. My buddy promptly said "Make you give me mine back !!" (#2)

The moral of this story is if you were properly fitted I mean getting YOUR numbers, launch angle at impact, angle of attack, optimum swingpeed,ball speed, smash factor, impact location, proper lenght and static weight of the club ... you could not get an OEM to build you one. They don't operate that way because it would cost them to much money to do it that way. Instead, they have introduced interchangeble shafts and multi head position gizzmos to accomadate what they are claiming is a custom fit. All they have done is given the clubmaker another fitting tool to use !

[downhillslider]

So as a clubmaker. Would you say it doesn't matter if you buy OEM's, Just get fitted by a certified clubmaker ?
And for those of us that cant afford to be fitted. What OEM's you have worked on would you say seem to be the most consistent in quality in your opinion ?

I do OEM iron and putter re fits all the time.

Woods and drivers are hit and miss. I can only play with the shaft and maybee bend the hosel, but you don't want to go there. Include hybrids in this catagory

Why does everyone think that beeig fitted is expensive ! ?

Mizuno irons, Titleist woods.

[Break68]

Why does everyone think that being fitted is expensive ! ?

I must admit I thought getting fitted was expensive, I had a fitting/assessment done and it wasn't expensive. It is very affordable. See link here to my post about my fitting\assessment experience: http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthread.php?t=45700
My post is #12 down from the top.

Getting back to the thread, so as not to hijack it...I have played TM RAC wedges and hated them, hated the feel, the weight and the quality. I won't buy TM again. Just my 2 cents worth.

[knickers]

I do OEM iron and putter re fits all the time.

Woods and drivers are hit and miss. I can only play with the shaft and maybee bend the hosel, but you don't want to go there. Include hybrids in this catagory

Why does everyone think that beeig fitted is expensive ! ?

Mizuno irons, Titleist woods.

Thanks for the reply. While I know the actual fitting itself is relativley inexpensive. Ill also include the reshafting/regripping of 14 clubs in my statement. It is a considerable cost to do this no ? What range could this all cost $ Pardon the ignorence on my part. Other then regripping my own clubs I truly have no clue as to the cost of being fitted start to finish.

Thanks
Mark

Pardon the thread jack as well. Just think this info is good to know.

[fundonny]

This is a ridonk topic. Everyone has a personal preference with regards to everything in the world. Whether golfers, golf balls, golf clubs, golf announcers. Ying and yang.