Opinions needed here...BST trade going poorly

[Golfmad]

A week or so ago I agreed to trade "wedgies" a five wood for a putter. Here is the link to the BST ad:

http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthread.php?t=51571

He didn't originally have the shaft flex in the ad, adding that information after I requested it. He also sent me a PM telling me the shaft was a stiff flex. I agreed to trade for a putter, and sent it off.

The club
arrived today, and the shaft is an R flex. I sent him a note asking about the issue and this is what he sent back:

Robert, the club is a TP shaft and it is a stiff even according to the people at Golftown. When I took it for a test I also told them it was very stiff and they had mentioned to me that it was a stiff and that's why it was called a ( Tour Pro ) for fast swingers. That is why I ended up having it for sale. It was to stiff for my swing, I only have an 80-90 mph swings speed so there is no flex happening.
And that's why they call it TP shafts.. If you are not happy with the item we can re-exchange our items back.


I informed him that he should have told me all of this before I sent the putter rather than now, so I could make an informed decision. I asked if he would pay all the shipping costs associated with undoing the transaction, but he won't. He'll pay to ship the putter back to me.

What this means is that I am going to be out 25 bucks to ship the club back to him, when I feel that he mislead me in the transaction.

Am I being unreasonable? Should I just reshaft the club and shrug it off, realizing that he basically lied to me and sent me something he knew I didn't want?

Opinions please.

Rob

[Big Johnny69]

First off, I would've suggested keeping the whole scenario anonymous. You can get your point across without naming names.

Secondly, I think a bit of the onus is on you as well to do your research. I know Graphite Design shafts pretty well, and from what I can recall, they don't make a "Tour Pro" shaft. Their flexes are either R, S, X, and in some models, SX. Only shafts on the market that have any "TP" designation are the ones Taylor Made uses for their TP line. Does the shaft have TM TP markings on it. So there is no way the guys at GT would call it a "Tour Pro" shaft for fast swingers unless it was the SX or X flex version. Only thing I can think of is that they were just trying to make a sale. You could've asked for pics of the shaft as well, if that was possible.

And as for being out $25, you have to realize he will be out the cost of sending the putter back as well. Although you didn't get what you wanted, I don't believe he intentionally mislead you. He was given bad info from a salesman who's care factor was really low.

I'd just swap stuff back and chalk this one up to experience.

Here are the specs to the 906F4, you'll notice there is no Tour P shaft offering in the YS+6 shaft.

http://www.titleist.com/images/products/pdfs/906F4.pdf

[Golfmad]

Thanks BigJohnny. I included his name and sent him a copy of the link so he could reply if he felt like it. I see no problem putting up that information.

I don't know if I follow all of your logic, though. I asked him what flex the shaft was. In common BST parlance, that simply means "what letter is on the shaft: S or R." He said "S"; the real answer was "R." The shaft logo does say "Tour" on it, so that is not erroneous in his post. You must have missed this on the shafts you've looked at.

I thought this was pretty cut and dried, but I'm obviously wrong about that.

[Big Johnny69]

Thanks BigJohnny. I included his name and sent him a copy of the link so he could reply if he felt like it. I see no problem putting up that information.

I don't know if I follow all of your logic, though. I asked him what flex the shaft was. In common BST parlance, that simply means "what letter is on the shaft: S or R." He said "S"; the real answer was "R." The shaft logo does say "Tour" on it, so that is not erroneous in his post. You must have missed this on the shafts you've looked at.

I thought this was pretty cut and dried, but I'm obviously wrong about that.

It says in the ad, "Tour P" shaft. I've never heard of a Tour P shaft. I've heard of TP shafts, but they are a trademark of TM. For me, I always look into the specs of a shaft to see if it will suit my needs. A simple is it "R" or "S" doesn't work for me. I figured most, that are fairly interested in a club, did the same.

As for putting his name up here, some folks don't want their information (be it real name, phone number, email addy) on open forums on the internet. Replying to a post and calling someone by their first name is different, as it is still quite anonymous.

[Golfmad]

So an R or and S doesn't work for you, but does that mean if you were selling a club and someone asked you whether it was an R or an S flex shaft, you would take it upon yourself to say anything other than what the manufacturer says on the shaft label.

By Tour P he meant Tour AD (the logo makes the AD look a bit like a P). I did all of the homework on this shaft. I saw the ad, asked about the flex, got an answer, went to golftown in town and hit the shaft that had the S on it, liked it, assumed that since he said it was S, that it was indeed S, and agreed on the trade. So, there was no lack of information on my part; quite the opposite.

I don't know why you are getting bogged down in this. I did my due diligence about the shaft.

I think if you are going to mislead people, you should expect that your name ends up on a forum complaining about the transaction.

[Golfmad]

No comments from anybody else?

[Big Johnny69]

So an R or and S doesn't work for you, but does that mean if you were selling a club and someone asked you whether it was an R or an S flex shaft, you would take it upon yourself to say anything other than what the manufacturer says on the shaft label.

By Tour P he meant Tour AD (the logo makes the AD look a bit like a P). I did all of the homework on this shaft. I saw the ad, asked about the flex, got an answer, went to golftown in town and hit the shaft that had the S on it, liked it, assumed that since he said it was S, that it was indeed S, and agreed on the trade. So, there was no lack of information on my part; quite the opposite.

I don't know why you are getting bogged down in this. I did my due diligence about the shaft.

I think if you are going to mislead people, you should expect that your name ends up on a forum complaining about the transaction.

I'm not getting bogged down, you asked for opinions so I gave you mine. And based on my iTrader feedback, it's safe to say I've done enough transactions to be well versed in both good and bad transactions. I was merely trying to help you out. But if you are only looking for opinions that will coincide with what you believe, then don't post threads looking for advice and opinions.

And as for naming names, we have the iTrader Feedback option for a purpose. It is a tool to use that show other forum members what it could be like to enter into a transaction with an individual. And it will still get your point across without naming real names.

Good luck with trying to resolve your issue. I hope you can come to an agreement that will be acceptable to both parties.

[Slicer&Dicer]

One might say that since the ad clearly stated that it was a "stiff" shaft (whether there is a TP or not), that one would not expect it to arrive with the label "R". I don't do much trading on here but I would think this would be an abnormal situation (Correct me if I am wrong Big Johnny).

The seller should have explained all this before hand so that an informed decision could have been made by the buyer.

I agree that by fully disclosing the other party you are infact leaving negative feedback without possibly waiting until you fully explore all options. You might discuss taking the club (maybe to a golftown so that he cannot argue the method used since it was GT that told him it was stiff) and having it evaluated and maybe a printout to see if it is really stiff and if not, then the seller should pay all shipping charges for the return and the cost for evaluating the shaft.

This is such a basic idea, shaft flex - what is the label? And if the buyer thinks that it might be something else, then it should be stated. I think I have seen many ads that say "plays like a ..."

Having said that, a lot of us are not tech gurus and the seller might have been doing the best he thought but still has the obligation to advertise as clearly as he can.

In future, I guess when the buyer cannot actually see the club in person before purchase, then a clear picture of all shaft markings should be requested and if not provided, then proceed cautiously. As a minimum, I guess a buyer needs to specially ask "What are the markings on the shaft?"

In the end you can leave negative feedback if nothing is resolved to your liking.

Also, you ask for feedback, don't be upset with non-supportive ones, as the folks on here are quite knowledgeable and do tuns of trading.

Just my two cents,

Best of luck.

[nokids]

did you pay with paypal or c.c.? you might be able to dispute the shipping cost with them. another option would be to try the club out and see if it's stiff enough for you. as a seller, i avoid these kind of misunderstandings by telling my buyers everything about the item. based on the information i've read, the seller misled you. it could have been unintentional, but still his fault.

[Kilroy]

Benefit of the doubt should prevail here, if that's the only concern. He's agreed to swap them back each of you shipping an item. That's reasonable. It's a shame it didn't work out but the resolution is there.

We do not allow naming names in such cases. I have edited it out.

[dbleber]

If the ad says stiff and he got a regular flex shaft then why should he have to pay to ship it back? The buyer obviously did not take the proper steps to list the club properly. The ad clearly says it's a stiff shaft and it's a Tour P when in fact it is a regular shaft and a Tour AD. That's misleading. Pictures are always best, having just completed a trade myself we used pictures, but most would believe that you can take someones written word on here without too much fear of being mislead. As for the other guy will be out the putter and shipping too comment, so what he's the one who didn't correctly advertise his equipment. Is there no self accountability? Also, just because BigJohnny checks the specs of the shafts before he buys a new one every other day doesn't mean that others should. It is good practice but most golfers buy based on S or R and since it was listed as S, he shouldn't have to pay everything. Seems pretty cut and dry. It was listed incorrectly so man up and make it right. I would suggest that if you like the head and club that maybe you get it reshafted with a shaft that fits you and you'll be better off than if you just got one based on being "stiff".

[jeffc]

I agree with dleber, I know if it was me I would want everything returned at the sellers expense. And I also know that if I made an error in an ad, I would rectify that at my cost. That being said, why not try to play the club and see what you think? Just because it says R doesn't mean anything and you may find it works just fine for you. Of course, that would make it tough to return it but you could always resell. Or you could get it reshafted - yes some additional cost but its a potential solution. If you are determined to just get your $ back then that is fine also.

[Big Johnny69]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he didn't mislead Golfmad, I'm just stating he probably didn't intentionally mislead him. Some people take the word of salesmen as gospal, and in many cases what the salesman says just isn't true.

[Kilroy]

I suppose it boils own to intent. If the seller intended to mislead, he likely would not want to accept it back at all. Just my opinion.

[jeffc]

i doesn't appear that he did but that's not the point. The goods were not as advertised and should be returned/refunded at the sellers expense.

[Big Johnny69]

I suppose it boils own to intent. If the seller intended to mislead, he likely would not want to accept it back at all. Just my opinion.

i doesn't appear that he did but that's not the point. The goods were not as advertised and should be returned/refunded at the sellers expense.

And that's what I'm saying. The fact he called it a Tour P shaft shows that perhaps he's not a "hardcore" golf equipment junkie. So with this club being too stiff for him, where it seems like he normally plays r-flex shafts, coupled with what the salesman told him, he probably believes its a s-flex regardless of what is stated on the shaft. And maybe the shaft was frequencied and it actually is a s-flex.

Anyways, I've said my piece, and like Dan said, I like to give the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully they have a mutually acceptable resolution to it.

[Shivas Irons]

IMO, this seems like an honest mistake on the part of the seller. Instead of wasting precious time fuming over shaft stiffness (insert joke here) why don't you try the club. If you don't like it, just sell it on OG. The fact that the seller has offered to re-exchange clubs tells me this was an honest mistake. Move on, play some golf.

[jeffc]

He should have said "the shaft is labelled as R but plays to a Stiff according to GolfTown. The buyer could then make his decision based on having all the info, not just part of it or not just based on what GT had said rather than what was written on the shaft.

[Wedgies]

Golfmad, I am sorry that you are not happy with your purchase. I had mentioned to you that I was willing to pay for the shipping cost to have your putter which I have yet to receive returned back to you ......

I am not out here to scam ANYBODY on any item at anytime. I have sold and also purchased several items from several members and was always happy at the end of the exchanges made.

I will agree that I did not have any pictures the first time I had posted the item. I was having problems with posting pictures because they were to big in picture size. I did though at a later time post the pictures on the ad before I had then replied to your email. It was still not sold when pictures were posted...

I had received several private messages from local members and also a member from Hamilton prior to having to post the pictures that they were interested in purchasing this item.
I did not sell it to them because I had told them that it was a stiff shaft ( a Tour made shaft ) which made this shaft stiff also mentioned to me by the sales person when he pointed out the TOUR print written on the shaft as seen in the picture.

If I was out to scam a person I would had sold it then.....

Here are the pictures many members who viewed my post may remember when it was posted...

Once again I am deeply sorry for your disappointment on the item. Like I had mentioned, I am also willing to lose out on money and have your item returned back to you once I have received it.

Also sorry to all members for this posting I am definately NOT out there to scam ANYBODY...

Thanks to all replies made.....

Regards,
Wedgies......

[Chieflongtee]

It is misleading in a way because when someone expects a S flex and gets a regular flex instead then the ad was not proper. That being said before going nuts I would give the club a try. You might find out that it is to your liking.

First we all know that a flex designation on a shaft from one supplier to the next does not mean squat. 2nd I would not trust the GT sims. And lastly yes the club will play stiffer because of the bore through design. Just my opinion.

[1972Apex]

Personally I would take the offer to return and swap items, or I would resell the club on the forum locally and thereby avoid the extra shipping costs. In choosing the latter, I would ask him instead to send me the money he would have spent on shipping my club back as compensation for the error. That way you get a little dough to help with a reshaft or allow you to easily sell the club cheaper and he's out no more than what it would have cost to unwind the deal in the first place.
While it is an unfortunate misunderstanding, I personally believe the seller when he says it was unintentional.
One of the main reasons I stopped buying or selling clubs outside of the local area was because it is so much easier to meet up with someone locally and inspect the clubs before purchasing. Anytime I ever had a negative deal, whether intentionally or not (and there are some REAL scam artists out there in cyberspace!) it was for shipped items.
In cases where an unfortunate but honest mistake was made and a deal had to be unwound and shipped back, I never considered it a negative, but instead more of a learning experience....

[spackler]

If I was in Golfmad's situation, I would be upset too. I don't doubt that Wedgies made an honest mistake, but it was his mistake and he should own up to it and pay for the return shipping of both items or make sure to find some other solution. 1972Apex's idea is a good one if it works for Golfmad.

[sillywilly]

i don't see what intent has to do with anything, who cares if it was an honest mistake... if he made a mistake he must be the one to fix it and must eat all the losses. i don't see how anyone can disagree with this.

I agree to trade you my cameron for your cameron but i send you a left handed club instead of a right handed club. you asked me if it was right handed, i said yes... how is this any different? even if it was my mistake and i didn't intend to mislead you, what the heck are you gonna do with a left handed putter? are you now gonna swap back with me out of your pocket?? ur out two shipping costs. one original cost and one undo cost. dumb

[Slicer&Dicer]

1972Apex's idea seems very reasonable.

I also, think that the seller should go back and complain to that GT location, indicating the issue and the trouble he had because some salesperson there is misleading consumers and the manager should be informed. We don't want to get into a GT discussion, but if we don't complain, they'll never improve.

[Golfmad]

Personally I would take the offer to return and swap items, or I would resell the club on the forum locally and thereby avoid the extra shipping costs. In choosing the latter, I would ask him instead to send me the money he would have spent on shipping my club back as compensation for the error. That way you get a little dough to help with a reshaft or allow you to easily sell the club cheaper and he's out no more than what it would have cost to unwind the deal in the first place.
While it is an unfortunate misunderstanding, I personally believe the seller when he says it was unintentional.
One of the main reasons I stopped buying or selling clubs outside of the local area was because it is so much easier to meet up with someone locally and inspect the clubs before purchasing. Anytime I ever had a negative deal, whether intentionally or not (and there are some REAL scam artists out there in cyberspace!) it was for shipped items.
In cases where an unfortunate but honest mistake was made and a deal had to be unwound and shipped back, I never considered it a negative, but instead more of a learning experience....

I agree with all of this, and I will never buy or swap clubs through the post again. I had found the ottawaforum to be a bit better than TGN, but won't be doing any deals on either in the future, under any circumstances.

Wedgies and I have agreed to a solution. He's owned up to the mistake and is making it right.

We can move on, and I'll delete the thread.

[big mac]

I don't think there is any reason to delete the thread--an opinion was requested and it seems everyone is happy Just shows that comprimise can be made---no need not to do anymore foum trades---most of the Itraders know more than the retailers

just my 2 cents

[Golfmad]

I think I am not going to do anymore trades here because it is clear that at least one of the moderators of the site believes that there is no problem with sending someone something other than you said you were sending, and that you are ultimately responsible when someone misleads you (whether intentional or not). That runs very much counter to my view of how these things should work.

I am going to delete the thread because I told the other trader that I would. I just wanted to let everyone know that it has been worked out.

[Chieflongtee]

[QUOTE=Golfmad;349845

I am going to delete the thread b.[/QUOTE]

How are you going to do that? Only moderators can.

[Golfmad]

I meant I am going to request it; I realize that's all I can do.

[Kilroy]

Sorry but we don't delete threads when a resolution is achieved.

The "moderation" that took place was the removal of a name, which I did for privacy reasons.

The other comments made by mods (including my own) were just opinions not forum policy. Hopefully a mod not agreeing with you won't stop you from trading here again.

Hope this helps.