Average putts per round? (AKA: Does putting really matter?)

[Colby]

Just curious Colby, is your average score for the same period somewhere between 83.5 - 87.5? Seems about right with an index of 10.

Reason I ask is that in another thread I was discussing with mberube the relationship between GIRs and average score. Golf Digest did a study a number of years ago that showed a very strong correlation between the two (stronger than any other stat) - basically saying that you can predict someones average score +- 2 strokes if you know their average GIR with virtually no exceptions. I've verified it with my own stats and mberube's, and I was wondering if it holds for other people as well.

My average score is 88.1, now, don't forget that that is an average for all of my rounds for the year, 58 rounds, but 85.5 over the last 6 rounds.

[mberube]

Just curious Colby, is your average score for the same period somewhere between 83.5 - 87.5? Seems about right with an index of 10.

Reason I ask is that in another thread I was discussing with mberube the relationship between GIRs and average score. Golf Digest did a study a number of years ago that showed a very strong correlation between the two (stronger than any other stat) - basically saying that you can predict someones average score +- 2 strokes if you know their average GIR with virtually no exceptions. I've verified it with my own stats and mberube's, and I was wondering if it holds for other people as well.

I think that the Golf Digest study is mostly accurate cause 99% of amateurs don't practice short game. They mostly hit balls at the driving range.

Like I said. Number 186th in GIR on tour hits 55% GIR. What is the average GIR % for # 255 on tour? I don't know but it is probably 50% or lower. I am positive that he has a lower index then 0.0.

[jvincent]

I think that the Golf Digest study is mostly accurate cause 99% of amateurs don't practice short game. They mostly hit balls at the driving range.

Like I said. Number 186th in GIR on tour hits 55% GIR. What is the average GIR % for # 255 on tour? I don't know but it is probably 50% or lower. I am positive that he has a lower index then 0.0.

Look at another way, the spread in PPR is 2.5 from best to worst. The spread in GIR 3.24 (18% x 18).

So, if you were the best putter on tour, with the worst GIR, your scoring average would be ~0.75 strokes HIGHER than if you were the worst putter on tour but had the best GIR%.

[Colby]

Is there any free software, or a trial version, that would allow me to input all these stats? I just don't want to download and install 50 different programs andd find that they are useless for what I need. I'd like to calculate GIR, FIR, Putts, and possibly Sand Save %.

Thanks,
Dan

Dan,

Here's the Goal Analysis that GStat spits out, it's in the attached file.

[el tigre]

I think that the Golf Digest study is mostly accurate cause 99% of amateurs don't practice short game. They mostly hit balls at the driving range.

Like I said. Number 186th in GIR on tour hits 55% GIR. What is the average GIR % for # 255 on tour? I don't know but it is probably 50% or lower. I am positive that he has a lower index then 0.0.

I believe you are confusing "index" with "scoring average". The GD study has nothing to do with your "index".

Your "index" is calculated using only your best rounds, adjusted for the course handicap and factors out the effects of high stroke counts on individual holes. It's purpose is to allow golfers of different abilities to compete in the same tournament. Your "scoring average" is simply your average gross score, period.

On pgatour.com, David Gossett is listed last in GIRs at 55.3% (i.e. 10 GIRs). The GD study would predict a scoring average for him of 75 +- 2 strokes. His scoring average is 74.08 - i.e., within the range predicted. Of course, his index will be much less than 0.0 - the course handicap for PGA-setup courses will see to that. If he played at the Dome, his GIR% would almost certainly go up and his average scores would almost certainly go down - but his "index" might stay at exactly the same number.

[Farzin]

It doesn't realy matter how good you putt if you can't get on putting green in regulations. I have it experienced this year. I was hitting my irons relatively well for a while and I experienced five birdies in one round on a very windy day. I was scoring well regardless of putting. My handicap had drop by 3 points, nowadays my irons suck and my handicap is gone back up to where it was. my putting is the same. "up and down". Yes If I had a srtroke average of 71.5 per round , then I would have liked to make every putt to bring my streoke average to 70.
Look at Brad Faxon. One of the best putters in the tour. Where is he at in standing. His best finish on the PGA TOUR in 2004 is 8th at The Honda Classic.
He ranks T29th in Putting Average on the PGA TOUR, but he is ranked 98 as money leaders and 48 in world ranking. Does that mean anything? why is he not ranked as 29th or why is he not 29th in money..
The other 1/2 half a penny.

[el tigre]

My average score is 88.1, now, don't forget that that is an average for all of my rounds for the year, 58 rounds, but 85.5 over the last 6 rounds.

Is your GIR% also calculated on all 58 rounds for the year, and do you count GIRs as per the PGA (i.e., putting from the fringe does not count as a GIR)? If so, then you are one of the very few exceptions - by about 1/2 a stroke!

[Colby]

Is your GIR% also calculated on all 58 rounds for the year, and do you count GIRs as per the PGA (i.e., putting from the fringe does not count as a GIR)? If so, then you are one of the very few exceptions - by about 1/2 a stroke!

All 58 rounds are in the mix. Also, I only count putts as being on the putting surface, anything off is a chip using the putter. I had a round last week on a fast green that I made a bogie on, only two putted, but hit the GIR. It happened that I was GIR, putted my first putt off the green, putted back on off of the fringe and then sank the putt for a bogie.

Stupid game!

[jonf]

I think you guys may be over analyzing this to an extent. Good putting will not result in an individual's success unless they hit greens in regulation. Greens in regulation will not correlate with success unless there is a measure of consistent, quality putting. I mean, if I could hit every green in regulation, i would still probably shoot over par, because my putting just isn't consistent enough. By the same token, even if I could rely on taking only 18 putts in a round, i would still shoot over par, because i can't hit enough greens in regulation. I'd be willing to bet that those at the top of the money list, with the best scoring average, are all near the top in both GIR and Putts.

[BC MIST]

http://www.geographyfieldwork.com/SpearmansRank.htm

I am no mathematician but I know how to use Spearman's Rank Order Correlation Coefficient, an example of which is listed above.

If anyone wants to correlate Tour players' Scoring Average to GIR, or putts per round, or putts per GIR, etc., it is very easily done on an Excel spreadsheet. These cold mathematical numbers should settle some of the arguments about what aspect of the game is more important, at least for better players.

[gbower]

NOW I've got it all figured out!!!!

[powerlefty]

All 58 rounds are in the mix. Also, I only count putts as being on the putting surface, anything off is a chip using the putter. I had a round last week on a fast green that I made a bogie on, only two putted, but hit the GIR. It happened that I was GIR, putted my first putt off the green, putted back on off of the fringe and then sank the putt for a bogie.

Stupid game!

Under the PGA stat definitions that would be a 3 putt. They count all strokes after being on the green as putts even if you putt off the green as you did - or into a bunker as sometimes happens in the Open Championship. First putts from the frings don't count as putts but as chips in their eyes also.

[Colby]

I think you guys may be over analyzing this to an extent. Good putting will not result in an individual's success unless they hit greens in regulation. Greens in regulation will not correlate with success unless there is a measure of consistent, quality putting. I mean, if I could hit every green in regulation, i would still probably shoot over par, because my putting just isn't consistent enough. By the same token, even if I could rely on taking only 18 putts in a round, i would still shoot over par, because i can't hit enough greens in regulation. I'd be willing to bet that those at the top of the money list, with the best scoring average, are all near the top in both GIR and Putts.

Yes and no. It depends on what you want to get out of it, like all statistical analysis. I took a number of Probability and Statistics courses through my post secondary education and you can make numbers dance however you want them.

If you take my PPR for GIR over my 58 rounds this year, as listed in a previous post, it is about 38.12. If, and a big IF, I hit every GIR, I would be scoring 2.12 shots over par for those 58 rounds. I would be happy with that! That's not going to happen, especially since even the pros can't make that happen, with Vijay leading the men at 72.2% and Annika the women at 77.2%. So I have to look at my scrambling. How well do I do getting up and down for par. How is my sand save percentage.

I'm pretty happy with my putting, my par save percentage could be better, and I'm working on my sand game. By looking at my weak areas through tracking the statistics, I have been able to shave strokes of my handicap. The best I was last year was 12.5, starting at almost an 18, and I finished the year around 14. This year I have knocked about 4 strokes of my handicap in 3 months, and am now sitting at 9.6.

The main thing is is that I have an idea of where I am having difficulty. Where I am losing strokes. Now I need to work on my full swing a bit. I am swaying at times, like I did on #13 at Talon last night off the tee, leaving myself about 400 in after duffing my drive off of the front of the tee box. A good 3 wood and 8 iron into the green gave me a chance for birdie and settled for par, but that sway and topping the ball comes into play 2-3 shots per round. Sometimes it hurts, sometimes not. I also leave the clubface open on impact a few times a round, usually off of the tee, but sometimes with my woods and long irons, especially long irons on par 3s.

Penalties are also something I need to work on. And it's not the oops, I hit the wrong ball or ground my club in the hazard. It's the "open clubface...crap that's in the water" effect, especially through 6-7-8-9 at Predator. Last year was brutal, with a 2.5 penalt average or 5 strokes per round, this year that's reduced to 1.9, or just under 4, so a saving of 1 stroke per round. But there have been bad rounds, like the Marshes one day, 9 balls in the water, or Eagle Creek a few weeks ago with a ton of balls in the woods resulting in my only 100+ round of the year.

It's not for everyone, but I think it helps with me, and me believing that makes it worthwhile.

[el tigre]

All 58 rounds are in the mix.

OMG, it just clicked - 58 rounds in 3 months!?! Have you ever been home during daylight??

[mberube]

OMG, it just clicked - 58 rounds in 3 months!?! Have you ever been home during daylight??

A golfer at my course played 176 games last year. Now that’s crazy!!!!

[EDSGOLF]

176, his rounds must cost him $2 to play when it's all said and done. I can't wait to be retired

[mberube]

176, his rounds must cost him $2 to play when it's all said and done. I can't wait to be retired

This guy is not even retired. He works a lot of overtime during the winter and works very early in the summer time. He often plays 36 holes a day.

[Colby]

OMG, it just clicked - 58 rounds in 3 months!?! Have you ever been home during daylight??

haha, 9 were in February down in Myrtle Beach, and there's been some weekends where I play a lot, like the last weekend in May where I played 2 rounds Friday, 2 Saturday, 2 Sunday and 1 Monday. Plus it's nice belonging to a club where if I feel like it, I can pop out and play a round late in the day. Being a consultant helps too. Work more in the winter, less in the summer

[LobWedge]

My vote would be with Average Putts per Green in Regulation, as opposed to Average Putts per Round. As well as the scrambling and sand save stats.

Today was a prime example. I shot 80 at Loch March (the wierd thing is it felt like 90) and I only had 24 putts. That's a round average of 1.33 putts per green. If I were on the PGA Tour with that putting average I'd be winning a billion bucks a year. The problem is I was slashing the ball around like a drunken, one-armed, blind man. The only thing that saved my butt was my short game.

[el tigre]

The problem is I was slashing the ball around like a drunken, one-armed, blind man.

AHA, so that's the secret!!

All these years I've been playing sober, swinging with both arms and refusing the blindfold - and never even had a sniff of shooting an 80 that felt like a 90! Now in a moment of weakness, LobWedge has revealed one of the low-handicappers most closely-guarded secrets. Well, this weekend I might just try something a little different ...

Ok, just kidding! Nice scrambling there, LobWedge!!

[jvincent]

My vote would be with Average Putts per Green in Regulation, as opposed to Average Putts per Round. As well as the scrambling and sand save stats.

Following up on BCMist's correlation question I think the following would be true.

Scoring average would be most highly correlated to GIR and PPGIR.

Total putts would probably be most highly correlated to scrambling stats.

I've had those kinds of days too. What's worse is when you have a day when you hit the ball really well all day and shoot a high score because you can't sink anything and generally have stone hands around the greens.

[BC MIST]

[QUOTE=jvincent]Following up on BCMist's correlation question I think the following would be true.
Scoring average would be most highly correlated to GIR and PPGIR.
Total putts would probably be most highly correlated to scrambling stats.[QUOTE]

FWIW, these are my current stats for 36 games:
SA - 73.14
FW - 11.92 or 85%
GIR - 14.14 or 78.5%
PPR - 33.19
PPGIR - 1.89
Saves - 43.5%
3 Putts - 48 or 1.33 per round

The last four show the 4 very glaring weak areas and they all have to do with putting. Keep in mind that our greens are big so the GIR are higher than normal, which would also explain why there is a larger than normal number of 3 putts and a higher PPGIR. The save percentage is the worst of the bunch.

A PPGIR of 1.79 or 1.8, a save percent in the 60% range and an average 3 putts per round of .5, is where I feel I should be, as it is based on my best results in recent years.

The stats for the last 16 games have shown some improvement in these areas:
SA 71.50
FW 11.94
GIR 15.19
PPR 32.56
PPGIR 1.81
Saves 41.86%
3 putts .75

The above reflect the fact that I spend roughly 75% of my summer practice time on my full swing, 20% on putting and 5% on pitching and chipping. If the ratios were 50%, 30% and 20%, perhaps the SA would be a little lower. Or would the FW and GIR's suffer?

[gbower]

Was just going over my stats for my 69 rounds so far this year and can really see a couple of areas to improve on, well maybe a lot of areas to improve.

Avg. Score = 80.01
FW = 71%
GIR = 44%
3 putts = 106 or 1.54 PR
Avg. PPR = 32.12 or 1.78 PR
PPGIR = 2.05

Really shows that I need to lower my 3 putts and get more GIR's.
Good thing we don't have more bunkers as that stat is terrible with 1 of 29 saves and that is better than last years 0 of 35. As I do get close to the green a lot the close chips help keep the overall putting lower. The one stat for me that is way down from previous years is the penalty strokes which is currently at .43 PR, down from over 1 PR last year.

Aren't stats fun!!!!!

[jvincent]

OK, so I actually spent the time and filled a spreadsheet with the tour data for Scoring ave, GIR, PPR, PPGIR. So here are the correlations.

Scoring to GIR: -0.64
Scoring to PPR: +0.32
Scoring to PPGIR: +0.63

So, it looks like if you want to lower those scores you really need to work on hitting greens AND your putting.

To which I say, well DUH!

Statistically, at least for the pros, they are equivalent.

Any other stats people would like checked since I have the spreadsheet mostly set up?

[King Kong Bundy]

I think it depends on the green. If it's flat, you're obviously going to get an easier putt. But the more rough and winding the green is, the more likely it is you'll spend there. My average putt per round is about 39.

[360flip]

2001 PGA Stats

Multiple regression

2 most important factors in low scoring are GIR and putts/round. Stats don't lie.

[ironmaster15213]

I consider myself to be a very good player and I have stats for just about everything to keep track of my strengths and weaknesses. during my last 30 rounds I've averaged 70.43 scorewise, not super tough courses but not pitch and putts either. My other stats are fairways in reg. 57%, greens in reg. 74% (this is due to having short approch shots due to length of drives, around 290.) I average 4.43 birdies per round with an avg. putt per hole of 1.71 (30.78 per 18). This all being said I don't think I'm a very good putter, I am super aggressive when it comes to drives and approach shots but put a putter in my hands and I turn into a girlie man. I am so afraid of 3 putting that I lag everything up to the hole and almost always miss to the high side playing it safe. The people that I play with would putt against me for money in a heartbeat but would never bet me on score. are there any other players out there that are king kongs on the tee box and fairways and turn into chicken littles on the greens?????

[jvincent]

This all being said I don't think I'm a very good putter, I am super aggressive when it comes to drives and approach shots but put a putter in my hands and I turn into a girlie man. I am so afraid of 3 putting that I lag everything up to the hole and almost always miss to the high side playing it safe. The people that I play with would putt against me for money in a heartbeat but would never bet me on score. are there any other players out there that are king kongs on the tee box and fairways and turn into chicken littles on the greens?????

Is there a putter psychiatrist in the house?

As anyone on the board who has played with me will attest to, I'm not necessarily the "smartest" golfer when it comes to risk taking with tee shots and approaches. I.e. I'm pretty much always taking the risky shot if there is a chance it will come out good. Yes, this costs me strokes, but I have fun.

Same is generally true on the greens. I've got waaaaaay too many 3-putt pars in my past.

I'm not nearly as good as you are, but I'm curious about why you're so afraid of 3-putting?

[ironmaster15213]

Is there a putter psychiatrist in the house?

As anyone on the board who has played with me will attest to, I'm not necessarily the "smartest" golfer when it comes to risk taking with tee shots and approaches. I.e. I'm pretty much always taking the risky shot if there is a chance it will come out good. Yes, this costs me strokes, but I have fun.

Same is generally true on the greens. I've got waaaaaay too many 3-putt pars in my past.

I'm not nearly as good as you are, but I'm curious about why you're so afraid of 3-putting?

Hello Jvincent, I think the reason that I'm so careful not to be aggressive putting is simply because you feel like an idiot when your on a 565 yard par five in two and three putt from 20 feet for a par. The people I play with really jag me about missing relative easy birdie putts so often but the same people call me a machine when it comes to the rest of my game. I'm very mechanical when it comes to stroking the putt to the right distance, I will take the club back 1 inch for every yard I'm from the spot that I want to hit the ball to (this is for avg. green speed),. This normally works like a charm to get the right distance but sometimes I tend to over excellerate the forward stroke and go past the hole. Thus 3 putts happen, thus the Stevie Wonder jokes (although I did learn to do a good impression of Stevie after a bad putt). You watch young kids putt and you see there is just no fear in their putts, even if the ball goes 5 foot by the hole. I've watched them drill 7 out of 10 in the hole from 10 feet like that's how it's suppose to happen, I hope to get that kind of confidence in my stroke someday....thanks for letting me jabber on...Frank Egan

[jvincent]

Hello Jvincent, I think the reason that I'm so careful not to be aggressive putting is simply because you feel like an idiot when your on a 565 yard par five in two and three putt from 20 feet for a par.

So here's something to try. Play a few weeks where you are consciously aggressive with the putter and see what happens. Yes, you are very likely to have a few more three putts. But if you end up making more birdies than three putts, then the answer is clear.

The important thing here is to be committed to the new approach because any doubt will kill you.

One other thing to consider is that perhaps your very mechanical approach is what is costing you. I remember watching Brad Faxon on his approach and it's basically the following:

1. Line up.
2. Hit it.

Very kid like.

Also, I'll trade you some putting courage for a few GIR points.