Another Noob!!

[Bo0YaA]

Ok, Ive been surfin this section reading about different things but figured I would ask rather then continue to read .

I just picked up golf this year after many a year sitting at the hole handing out trinkets to the golfers in all of the tournaments my line of work has. Im 6'3 220 lbs and have spent a few hours at the driving range prior to actually golfing my first game. I noticed that although I can drive on average between 275 and 310 yards with my longest so far being 338 yards on a long drive hole in my first tournament (had a good roll ) I cant seem to keep the thing from fading hard left. BTW im another right handed person that golfs left so Im screwed up already lol.

I bought a new driver that has a 2 degrees closed face hoping that it would help solve this issue, but now Im all over the place with my drives. Half the time they will still go left so I will position myself a little more behind the ball in my stance and the next thing its hookin like a bugger. I will admitt that I am still a noob, only having 10 9hole games under my belt but I have seen improvement going from a 72 my first game heheehh yes on 9 to a 52 my last time out.

I know how hard it is to give any instructions with out seeing my swing, so ill do my best to tell you my stance, lineup, grip and club face position.

My typical stance is with the ball lined up with the inside of my forward (right) knee, if I step further forward i tend to hook. I have noticed that I have a some what wide stance and my forward foot is at about 10 or 11 o'clock while my back foot is at 9.

My grip is such that both thumbs are in a straight line facing down the shaft of the club and I wrap my left (or bottom hand) fingers around my right thumb. I have read and heard to hold the club with a light grip, but I will admitt i hold it with a death grip heheh I dont understand how you swing even a little bit hard and still keep the club in your hand if you have a soft grip. I have gone to a proshop and had my head speed clocked at from 105-112 mph so I use a firm harrison stripper graphite shaft.

I position the club face with the guide dot to the inside of the ball and atleast 2 degrees closed and sometimes when i get frustrated with my slice i close it even more resulting in a major hook lol.

It is my intention to get atleast one lesson but I thought what the heck Ill ask you guys for a few pointers as well.

Thanks for your patience just in reading this lol

Dave

[Deep Woods]

It is my intention to get atleast one lesson but I thought what the heck Ill ask you guys for a few pointers as well.

Dave

Geez, Dave, I wish I was good enough to read this and try to help. I can give you my advice, but then I'm not as good as some on here.

I personally go against using clubs that adjust for a swing until your swing is consistent and repeatable.

One lesson might not do it for you, because in my experience, its a lesson, plus weekly practice, plus another lesson, plus more practice, etc., before improvements come. Be patient with yourself: as you've already discovered, odd things can creep in that make your swing bad, and its hard to figure out what it is. Try to read something on the mechanics, or read some of the posts here.

At the driving range, I'd recommend picking a target and being very HONEST with yourself. When you hit it far, is it consistent too? Hitting to a target repeatedly is the goal, ignore your distances for now.

Personally, I'd focus on the short game first, and move out. Start with your putting and pitching, work on your 100 yards and in shots, then start wacking it. Most of the game is within 100 yards.

WIth the death grip and the swing speed you describe, do you always hit the ball solid, or are there some tops and misses in there too? I'd try for consistency first before speed. If you start off swinging as fast/hard as you can, its hard to undo that and learn to swing smoothly. Consistency first. Then speed. Walk before you can run.

Personally I'm a big advocate of lessons and practice, and par 3's for improving precision and consistency.

Without seeing your swing, its very very hard to help, but its good to take lessons now before you ingrain bad habits. I know it took me years to undo my bad habits.

[ros_bif]

here are a couple tips i can give you...but as you said, it is tough to help without seeing...so i'l,l do my best


#1, if i read it correctly, your grip is with your thumbs straight down he front of the grip...this is a very weak grip (like a putter grip), and is a key component in slicing the ball....a correct grip for a lefty would have the 'v's (the v shape created between your first finger and thumb) pointed at your left shoulder (which is impossible with your thumbs pointing down the center) it will feel very unusual, but is correct...althouth i suggest you have someone show you how (or look online for pictures) since a grip is so important, and if you were to misinterpret what i'm saying, you could be left with a very bad grip....note that once you move to this grip you will most likely start hooking the ball...(usually ppl with a weak grip keep a closed face, and when they turn to a proper grip keep the closed face and hook...)

#2, make sure you have a closed stance...often people have slices due to open stances (i.e. in the case of a lefty, your right right hip is too far 'back/behind'...hard to explain in words, making it impossible for you to bring the club through at the proper angle) once again this is hard to explain, and you would need someone to show you how to close your stance a bit

#3, picturing a clock for your swing, take a look at your club head at 3 and 9...is the head pointed straight up (and not on an angle) ...if not, then make sure it does, otherwise you are looking to slice the ball...having your followthrough come too far inside will result in a hook or slice depending on your stance and grip.

#4, make sure that you are limiting movement...the more uneccessary movement you create in your swing, the more inaccurrate you become...especially with long irons and woods...if you watch the swing of someone like ernie els (check it out at pga.com) you'll see that his shoulders remain square, that his torso twists only when necessary, and that there is no uneccissary hip movement, or sway...alot of golfers have a sway in their swing that moves nearly their entire body...(rolling weight from front to back then front again...)


anyways...as we've already mentioned, it's tough to really explain things, these are just tips...but make sure that you talk to someone and have them show you anything...it's realy easy to misinterpret someone's words on here, then start practicing something really wrong.

given that you haven't played too much, i'd recommend seeing a teacher for a set of lessons...get your swing taught to you early rather than later...and save yourself the frustrations associated with breaking bad habits

hope this helped

[mberube]

[QUOTE=Deep Woods]
Personally, I'd focus on the short game first, and move out. Start with your putting and pitching, work on your 100 yards and in shots, then start wacking it. Most of the game is within 100 yards.
[QUOTE]

I agree! Short game, short game, short game. I know players that have very bad mechanics and hit major slices or hooks but there short is so good that it makes up for their bad swings.

Learn to get up and down from 20, 30 and 40 yards out. That’s how you compare good and bad players.

[Bo0YaA]

Thanks for the info guys, since i posted this i went and played 18 holes at one of the harder courses here and I knew that if I put everything into my swing I would be hittin from the woods lol. I played the day with a lighter then normal swing and tried to relax my grip a bit and it seemed to work. I didnt score all that great (a 113) but for a guy that is just learning its not to bad i guess and I did manage a 313 yrd drive on a par 5.

I also noticed that the ball I used made a huge difference in my game, for instance I started with a noodle and found that they sliced like crazy but when I went to the Top Flight infinity absolute straight my slice all but went away. All I can contribute that to is the fact that I must be hitting from outside in and when hitting a noodle which is known for "Excellent Spin" it spins out hard left but when hitting the top flight which is known to have a very poor spin it stays somewhat straight, who knows lol.

My first lesson is on friday so I will see what it is he tells me but I will admitt that my short game sux pretty bad lol. My idea has been the longer I can drive the shorter distance I have to use my irons heheh. I know thats the wrong way to think about it but hell it seems the only thing i can do decent is drive lol.

Deep Woods, as far as my drive being consistent, it is by ways of distance but not direction. However this last round that i went out and played I used the same stance the entire game rather then changing from hole to hole depending on pin placement. I was at the driving range and I overheard a golf instructor telling his students to put the club shaft accross their legs with the end of the handle pointing to the target, when i did this and used the "right ball" i seemed to be pretty consistent.

I got a new set of Irons today that are better then the old dunlops ive been trying to play with, so maybe i wont be so intimidated by them now and I will actually start using them at the range rather then just hitting 2 buckets of balls with my driver lol.

Ros, I tried that grip on the club and it did feel strange but Ill give it a shot Ive been told my grip is wrong but nobody really took the time to show me the right way lol.

Thanks again everybody

Dave

[el tigre]

Personally, I'd focus on the short game first, and move out. Start with your putting and pitching, work on your 100 yards and in shots, then start wacking it. Most of the game is within 100 yards.

I agree! Short game, short game, short game. I know players that have very bad mechanics and hit major slices or hooks but there short is so good that it makes up for their bad swings.

Learn to get up and down from 20, 30 and 40 yards out. That’s how you compare good and bad players.

Well, I was taking a break from posting in this forum - but for the sake of newbies and high-handicappers in the area, I have to respectfully disagree with these statements.

There is no doubt that the short game and putting are important elements to the game - elements that are often neglected by most players. But the key element to playing this game well is consistant ballstriking. And that means learning and practicing the full swing.

This topic came up on the Golf Channel forum a few months ago. It seems that Golf Digest did a study a few years ago comparing the statistics of high-handicap vs low-handicap golfers to see where the differences were. The strongest factor separating good and bad golfers had nothing to do with putting or the short game - it was Average Greens in Regulation. The correlation was so strong, if they knew your Avg GIR they could predict your average score within 2 strokes with virtually no exceptions. If they knew your average score, they could predict your average GIR +- 1.

The average 18-hole score on a full-size, par 72 course for men is 97. That means an average male golfer gets a GIR less than 10% of the time. The PGA tour average for GIRs is around 65%. That's a huge difference. Another big difference is in "wasted strokes" - i.e., the number of flubs, penalty strokes and recovery shots. A PGA pro might have 1-2 per round total, while a high-handicap golfer has closer to 10-12 (more if you count OB/lost balls as 2 wasted strokes). This a another huge difference, which again is related to ballstriking. BTW, the up-and-down % for PGA pros is less than 60% - good thing they only need it for 6-7 holes per round.

I've seen many good golfers who can't chip, pitch or putt . I can virtually guarantee that there is no one with an average score of 85 whose average GIR% is less than 25%. Their "power fade" might be close to a slice, but if they can get hit it consistantly then they will score.

I'm not saying that the short game is unimportant. It can save you an average of 2-4 strokes per round - which is a huge difference if your handicap is in single digits. For low-handicappers, this may be the biggest factor to get YOUR game to the next level, but it is not what is going to get the average golfer shooting in the 80s. What is going to shave 10-15 strokes off HIS handicap is developing the level of consistant, reliable ballstriking that low-handicappers have had for years - and sometimes take for granted.

So Mike and Deep Woods, please don't take it personally - I know you're just trying to help. I'm just offering a different opinion, which is probably worth exactly what Bo0YaA paid for it!

[Deep Woods]

Well, I was taking a break from posting in this forum - but for the sake of newbies and high-handicappers in the area, I have to respectfully disagree with these statements.

I agree totally. I think our original advice was to learn to hit consistently first, so I think we all agree. I just know beginners, and the LAST thing they practice (IF THEY EVER DO) is putting and pitching.

As Booyaa probably noted, he probably lost 40 strokes pitching and putting past the hole, then back again, then back again...he might have even putted off the green a few times. Next time youre out, Booya, keep a separate check mark/score of all putts taken, just to see how many strokes are spent on the green.

I find that people spend enough time on the range that telling them to learn to hit first seems pointless, but next to NO ONE spends that much time practicing putting. No beginner I've seen, anyway. At the 19th tee, I'd say 1% go to the pitching area.

PLUS, every beginner I've ever helped always has an easier time learning a reduced swing first (half), and pitching and 9 irons seem to lend to this.

But you're absolutely right, hit consistently and well first.

[Deep Woods]

[QUOTE=el tigre]I've seen many good golfers who can't chip, pitch or putt . I can virtually guarantee that there is no one with an average score of 85 whose average GIR% is less than 25%.

I don't know if I agree with this. While they are the exception, I golfed with a lot of seniors at one point. They're distance was gone, but their accuracy was fantastic...down the middle. They're chance of reaching the green in regulation was pretty low. However, they all had the ability to pitch it close to the hole for a one putt more than half the time. Again, its an exception.

I'd like to see people go out on a course with no more than a 5 iron. See if we save a few strokes from staying out of trouble. And then see how our scores compare with normal. This would have no result for a low handicaper, im talking about joe average.

[Bo0YaA]

Woods, yout right I do struggle with pitching the most, my puting game is average (at least compared to the guys I go out with lol) my average green Im a 2 and sometimes 3 put depending on where I was lucky enough to place my chip. And yes I have been known to blade a few chips from one side to the other lol.

On another note, I found this site http://www.easy2diy.com/tutorials/gl...x.asp#overview if you watch the animation, it showes you the correct grip step by step so I look forward to giving this a try.

Dave

[el tigre]

I golfed with a lot of seniors at one point. They're distance was gone, but their accuracy was fantastic...down the middle. They're chance of reaching the green in regulation was pretty low.

I've seen those guys and I know what you mean - but if you actually kept their stats I think you'd be surprised.

You only need 5 GIRs to have a GIR% over 25%. Most golf courses have 5 par 3s and 5 par 5s - and maybe even a short but tricky par 4. If your distance is gone but your accuracy is fantastic (and you don't take a lot of penalty strokes, etc.), you could get 5 GIRs out of this.

I totally agree that the short game and putting are neglected by most players, and a little more attention to these areas can knock a few strokes off your handicap. And anyone who has played the game more than a couple of years has had those games when their swing sucked but their putting/short game has saved them. All I'm saying is that if you're trying to consistently break 100 or even 90, better ballstriking is the key.

[Bo0YaA]

Well went to my first lesson today, and there were two major things that I was doing wrong. First, yup my grip was all messed up lol and 2nd my stance was a little screwy as well.

I was amazed to see how much difference correcting my grip and stance made in my shot. I was able to get the ball going straight about 95% of the time after he showed me how to do things correctly. I was a little bummed to see that the new stance and grip cost me some distance, (about 50 yds) but he says it will come back after I have gotten used to the new style.

Thanks for all of the advise and I would highly recommend anybody that is having issues with there game to get atleast one lesson.

[mberube]

I've seen many good golfers who can't chip, pitch or putt . I can virtually guarantee that there is no one with an average score of 85 whose average GIR% is less than 25%. Their "power fade" might be close to a slice, but if they can get hit it consistantly then they will score.

I'm not saying that the short game is unimportant. It can save you an average of 2-4 strokes per round - which is a huge difference if your handicap is in single digits. For low-handicappers, this may be the biggest factor to get YOUR game to the next level, but it is not what is going to get the average golfer shooting in the 80s. What is going to shave 10-15 strokes off HIS handicap is developing the level of consistant, reliable ballstriking that low-handicappers have had for years - and sometimes take for granted.

I played 74 two weeks ago with 5 GIR. Try to calculate your 2-4 shots saved on sort game on this one.

I can save a good 6+ shots with my short game alone. No short game, no low scores.

[Farzin]

I played 74 two weeks ago with 5 GIR. Try to calculate your 2-4 shots saved on sort game on this one.

I can save a good 6+ shots with my short game alone. No short game, no low scores.

Mberube:
A good short game is good for saving pars. Where as with a good GIR the chances for birdies and pars are much better.....therefore even lower scores.

[el tigre]

I played 74 two weeks ago with 5 GIR. Try to calculate your 2-4 shots saved on sort game on this one.

I can save a good 6+ shots with my short game alone. No short game, no low scores.

I'm talking about averages, Mike. We've all had those games where our short game and/or a hot putter have saved us a ton of strokes and allowed us to post a good score. Especially when you're hitting the ball well but just missing greens by a little. But if you look at an entire season (or a 1/2 season if you're a golf !), you'll see that on average your best rounds are the ones where you hit GIRs.

Do you use a software program to keep your stats? If so, tell me your average GIR, and I bet I can predict your average score over the same period of time +- 2 strokes. No short game stat can do that.

[mberube]

I'm talking about averages, Mike. We've all had those games where our short game and/or a hot putter have saved us a ton of strokes and allowed us to post a good score. Especially when you're hitting the ball well but just missing greens by a little. But if you look at an entire season (or a 1/2 season if you're a golf !), you'll see that on average your best rounds are the ones where you hit GIRs.

Do you use a software program to keep your stats? If so, tell me your average GIR, and I bet I can predict your average score over the same period of time +- 2 strokes. No short game stat can do that.

GIR= 42.94%

[el tigre]

GIR= 42.94%

That translates to an average of 7.7 GIRs per 18-hole round, so I predict your average score over the same period is 79.5 +- 2 strokes (i.e., between 77.5 and 81.5).

[mberube]

I have a 7.2 index but I was a 9.7 two weeks ago.

I believe you must learn to play good golf from the ground up. Putting too chipping too 100 yards-in and then long play. Most amateur are so concentrated on hitting greens in regulation. The fact is that 95% of amateurs will never have an average of 50% or more GIR. Short game is what makes or breaks a game. I am not talking about par rounds or sub-par rounds. I am talking about lower rounds that you are accustomed to play at any level.

Lets say that a beginner plays 115. He has an average of 2.39 shot over par on each hole. Give me one month of chipping, putting and game management around the greens and I can save him 10 strokes on short game alone. As soon as the high handicapper learns to just chip the ball on the green and forget about getting it at two feet from the pin his scores will drop dramatically. Why! Because he won’t be scared of missing the fairways and the greens witch all players do.

David Gosset hits 55% of the greens on tour and he is 186th. They don’t list lower then that but I bet that the 255th on tour hit close too as many greens as I do.

How many times have you seen beginners chip from won side to the other and 3 or 4 putts adding shots to his score. It is a lot easier for a beginner to learn to putt and chip then to learn a complicated high-speed swing.

Your calculation of GIR versus index is bang on for most amateurs cause they don’t practice short game.

[el tigre]

Give me one month of chipping, putting and game management around the greens and I can save him 10 strokes on short game alone...Your calculation of GIR versus index is bang on for most amateurs cause they don’t practice short game.

It would be virtually impossible to save an average of 10 strokes per round on short game alone. The fact the the correlation between GIRs and average score is so strong +- 2 strokes suggests that only up to 4 strokes on average could be saved.

I play golf regularly with a few beginners who are struggling to break 100 - and yes they have games where they waste 10 strokes going from one side of the green to the other. But that is not their average. They usually get it close enough for two putts - even if one of them is from the fringe (and thus technically not a putt).

A few additional points to consider:

1) the better your ballstriking, the easier your short game shots are - your misses are much closer, so you tend to be chipping or putting from the fringe/apron. The beginner's short game shots tend to be 15-25 yard pitches. Your short game stats would plummet if you left yourself the same shots that they do.
2) as your skill level improves, all facets of your game tend to improve - everyone has their strengths and weaknesses of course, but I've never met anyone who averages 9 GIRs and then go from one side of the green to the other on the other 9 holes. I've never met anyone who averages 2 GIRs (typical 90s golfer) and then averages 8-9 par saves per round. These things can happen, but not all the time.
3) virtually every beginner I've met dreads the bunker "splash" shot - yet most pros and low-handicappers will say this short game shot is incredibly easy! Why? Because the "splash" is basically a full or 3/4 swing shot with a modified setup - i.e., ballstriking with finesse. The flop shot and pitches over 30 yards are examples of other "short-game" shots that require good ballstriking skills.

You're absolutely right when you say that most amateurs don't practice the short game enough - but as you also pointed out, they are technically easier shots to execute. If someone was exceptionally inept at the short game, you might save 5-6 average strokes - but not 10. But for a single-digit handicap (like you), a 2-stroke improvement by going from an average short game to a very good one is a 20% improvement in scoring! That is a huge impact!

BTW, nice index you've got there - and it's obviously going in the right direction! Must be working on your short game, eh?

[mberube]

I analyzed (in the past) my FWIR, GIR, PPR…… Name it and I had the stats for it. I got very frustrated on certain aspect of the game. My game went downhill because I focused too much on GIR.

Then one day I played with a very poor ball striker. When he swung at the ball, you would bet that he would fall on his back every time. This guy would slice the ball like you would not believe. He played his shots short or long of danger. He was a 5 HDCP at the Dome. He told me that he did not car about hitting greens. As long as he had a chance too chip it, he had a very good chance for par. If he was on the GIR he would birdie or rim the hole every time. This guy could chip and putt to save his life. He would practice chipping 30 yards in and putting. He never when on the driving range. To him, it was a waist of time.

That day I was a 15.7 index. A year after I was a 8.1 thanks to working on my short game. This year in the intersectional qualifying, I chipped in twice for birdie. I have 4 eagles under my belt on short par 4 in the last two years.

I took lessons at the OAC two winters in a row. Don’t get me wrong it helped my game but nothing like my short game practice did.

Calculate it like you want. In won year, I dropped 7 shots on my index. Playing by the rules. No mulligan, no nothing, just short gimmies .

What is the average score for a 55% GIR player?

[broken27]

You're absolutely right when you say that most amateurs don't practice the short game enough - but as you also pointed out, they are technically easier shots to execute. If someone was exceptionally inept at the short game, you might save 5-6 average strokes - but not 10. But for a single-digit handicap (like you), a 2-stroke improvement by going from an average short game to a very good one is a 20% improvement in scoring! That is a huge impact!

BTW, nice index you've got there - and it's obviously going in the right direction! Must be working on your short game, eh?

I'm fairly sure that if I went for short game lessons (pitch, sand and chip), I'd save an average of 10 shots per round. I'm just THAT bad at chipping. For some reason, I can't get confidence over those shots, and the result is slapshot-like chips that careen over the green and off the other side. It has gotten better since I've started warming up on the putting/chipping greens of the courses I play at, but it's still a terrible part of my game, and I'm sure that it results in 10 strokes at least being added to my score.

Example: I'm 5 yards off the left side of the green, 10 yards from the pin. I slap the ball through the green and now face another 5 yard shot coming back. This time, in fear of repeating my mistake, I play the ball softer. I snag my club in the rough, and pop the ball 3 feet forward. Now I'm frustrated. I abandon the chip shot, and decide I'll just putt the ball from the rough. Either I clip it too hard and it goes 30 feet past the hole, or I don't hit hard enough and it ends up in the fringe short. Either way, I'm now putting. Now, because I'm already frustrated, I putt my ball too hard, leaving 15 feet coming back, and that's two-putt territory for me usually.

This scenario happens far more often than I'd like to admit, but it's a sad part of my game. I'm taking short game far more seriously now, because when I get on the green, my normally solid putting gives me a good chance to score well.

I don't think there's a blanket solution for everyone, but I'm starting to believe in the whole idea of "tune your game up from the pin back".

Dan

[mberube]

I'm fairly sure that if I went for short game lessons (pitch, sand and chip), I'd save an average of 10 shots per round. I'm just THAT bad at chipping. For some reason, I can't get confidence over those shots, and the result is slapshot-like chips that careen over the green and off the other side. It has gotten better since I've started warming up on the putting/chipping greens of the courses I play at, but it's still a terrible part of my game, and I'm sure that it results in 10 strokes at least being added to my score.

Example: I'm 5 yards off the left side of the green, 10 yards from the pin. I slap the ball through the green and now face another 5 yard shot coming back. This time, in fear of repeating my mistake, I play the ball softer. I snag my club in the rough, and pop the ball 3 feet forward. Now I'm frustrated. I abandon the chip shot, and decide I'll just putt the ball from the rough. Either I clip it too hard and it goes 30 feet past the hole, or I don't hit hard enough and it ends up in the fringe short. Either way, I'm now putting. Now, because I'm already frustrated, I putt my ball too hard, leaving 15 feet coming back, and that's two-putt territory for me usually.

This scenario happens far more often than I'd like to admit, but it's a sad part of my game. I'm taking short game far more seriously now, because when I get on the green, my normally solid putting gives me a good chance to score well.

I don't think there's a blanket solution for everyone, but I'm starting to believe in the whole idea of "tune your game up from the pin back".

Dan

Perfect example.

Most high handicap golfers have a lot of difficulty chipping and pitching because they focus too much on the pit or a three feet radius. The problem their is the margin of error is sky high. If Dan would focus on chipping the ball anywhere on the green ignoring the pin completely, he would have a lot less pressure on his success. Once on the green he has a chance to one or two putt.

I am sure that Dan would rather one chip and two putt for bogie then try the perfect chip missing it over and over again resulting in a triple.

When I am facing a chip shot, my main focus is where my ball must land and then predicting the roll up to the pin. If I am facing a very difficult shot, I don’t think of saving par, I think of giving myself a chance to putt. Resulting in a par or an easy tap in bogie. NOT A DOUBLE!!!!

Dan, next game, think of getting the ball on the green. Ignore the pin. Keep us posted, you may save a lot of shots.

[el tigre]

What is the average score for a 55% GIR player?

Basically, each average GIR is worth 2 strokes off your average score:

Avg GIR... Avg Score
12 .............. 71
11 ...............73
10 ...............75
9 .................77
8 .................79, etc.
.
.
2 ................91

A 55% GIR player averages 10 GIRs/round, so his average score will be 75 +- 2 strokes (i.e., between 73 and 77). For those on this forum who keep their stats, see if it works for you (Note: if you use software, make sure you are using GROSS scores and not the NET scores after ESC that are used for handicap calculations).

As for your friend at the Dome, it is impossible to speculate whether the calculations work for him or not without knowing his stats. You can't simply go by what you see in one round. And as I'm sure you know, your average gross score is greater than Par + Handicap Index. My guess is he averages 80-82, and averages 6-7 GIRs per round.

[el tigre]

I'm fairly sure that if I went for short game lessons (pitch, sand and chip), I'd save an average of 10 shots per round. I'm just THAT bad at chipping. For some reason, I can't get confidence over those shots, and the result is slapshot-like chips that careen over the green and off the other side. It has gotten better since I've started warming up on the putting/chipping greens of the courses I play at, but it's still a terrible part of my game, and I'm sure that it results in 10 strokes at least being added to my score.

It really is impossible to tell without keeping track of your stats. When you do, I'm sure you'll discover it isn't as bad as you think. We always remember the really good shots and the really bad ones.

Example: I'm 5 yards off the left side of the green, 10 yards from the pin. I slap the ball through the green and now face another 5 yard shot coming back. This time, in fear of repeating my mistake, I play the ball softer. I snag my club in the rough, and pop the ball 3 feet forward. Now I'm frustrated. I abandon the chip shot, and decide I'll just putt the ball from the rough. Either I clip it too hard and it goes 30 feet past the hole, or I don't hit hard enough and it ends up in the fringe short. Either way, I'm now putting. Now, because I'm already frustrated, I putt my ball too hard, leaving 15 feet coming back, and that's two-putt territory for me usually.

Follow Mike's advice - ignore the pin, focus on the green. Learn the basic techniques of chipping and pitching (lots of books, mags and internet info out there), and don't try to get too fancy right away. At first, you should think of your goal as bogey - not par. It only takes one par to break 90.

The only thing I would add is that you have to forget about past mistakes and play every shot individually regardless of what happened before. I know that's tough, especially when you flub a chip shot (I mean, the green is 5 feet away - how can I miss, right!?!), but bad decisions and tensions/frustrations can cause poorly-executed shots just as much as under-developed skills.

[broken27]

I agree with certain points of what both of you are saying, and in combination they will work great. Firstly, my next rounds of golf are at Dragonfly on Sunday with long-time playing partner and likely two "guests". I've played with one of the "guests" before as well. The bottom line is comfort, and a familiarity with the course. This will enable me to think more about just hitting the green rather than the pin. Also, I've broken 90 plenty of times at the 'Fly and always play my best golf there. I just really love the holes, so aiming for bogey is very realistic and yet will let me play a casually agressive game. I putt well there traditionally, especially here. Wonder...

I'll keep GIR stats, chip stats, and putt stats this weekend. Will be neat to see over 36 holes...

Dan