Patrice Cormier Hit in the Q

[thematt]

So not sure if you have all seen it yet, but this happened yesterday.

Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAoFY...layer_embedded

As a hockey fan and former coach, I find this hit to be absolutely disgusting and unnecessary. If this was the first time, it would still be terrible, but it would be a bit different, but this is a guy who took two cheapshots during the WJHC during line changes.

I disagreed with him being the captain then, and it just seems like he has no grasp of respect for his fellow players.

What should he get for this with regards to a suspension?

[Mattchew]

One of the worst cheap shots I have ever seen. Too bad this guys was Captin for Canada's world Jr.s ...this is the crap that needs to be gone from hockey. I really hope they come down hard!

[Shivas Irons]

I wouldn't be surprised if Cormier faces some kind of legal action in addition to whatever suspension he's going to have to serve. That was the most vicious elbow I've ever seen.

Hopefully Tam can get healed and still have a hockey career.

[tmacgolf]

Horrible. I hope that kid is OK (Tam, not Cormier). Interesting that it was Patrick Roy who filed the complaint with the police after the game, considering what went on with his own kid. There is no place for this in hockey, however it seems like this is a weekly discussion lately. It will be interesting to see what happens here. I know it is a different league, and a better player, but not really much difference to the hit in the OHL before Christmas that ended the junior career of Liambas (actually, I think this hit is worse than the OHL one). What gets me is that Liambas is now playing in the IHL and the young kid, Fannelli hasn't played since.

[thematt]

Horrible. I hope that kid is OK (Tam, not Cormier). Interesting that it was Patrick Roy who filed the complaint with the police after the game, considering what went on with his own kid. There is no place for this in hockey, however it seems like this is a weekly discussion lately. It will be interesting to see what happens here. I know it is a different league, and a better player, but not really much difference to the hit in the OHL before Christmas that ended the junior career of Liambas (actually, I think this hit is worse than the OHL one). What gets me is that Liambas is now playing in the IHL and the young kid, Fannelli hasn't played since.

The one thing I will say about Roy is that he is asking for that because of the punishment that was handed to his son, basically a "fair is fair" thing. His son did something that, injury wise, wasn't as severe as what Cormier did to Tam.

I think it's only fair that Cormier gets just as severe, if not bigger, punishment than Roy did for his incident.

[tmacgolf]

The one thing I will say about Roy is that he is asking for that because of the punishment that was handed to his son, basically a "fair is fair" thing. His son did something that, injury wise, wasn't as severe as what Cormier did to Tam.

I think it's only fair that Cormier gets just as severe, if not bigger, punishment than Roy did for his incident.

Agreed. I have no problem with the owner/coach filing the complaint. I reread my post and it could be viewed that my issue was with Roy, but my issue was infact with the hit and only the hit. If Cormier is suspended by the Q, he probably finishes the season in the IHL, ECHL, or AHL. Is that fair?

[thematt]

I don't think it's fair at all. It's too bad that there isn't some type of cross-league suspension rule. Kind of like the NHL has with the AHL.

I mean, there's nothing from stopping the Devils from calling him up for the rest of the year or sending him to the AHL in a worst case senario, which I don't think is fair at all.

[tmacgolf]

It's too bad that there isn't some type of cross-league suspension rule. Kind of like the NHL has with the AHL.

[MikeL]

I thought that he would've learned his lesson when he elbowed the player from Sweeden at the world juniors and didn't get anything for it. Few weeks after tries it again and boom!
The guy is drafted by the Devils, so no need to make cheap hits to impress. Some guys just want to make a big show and try too hard at it, and he's one of them.
I'm pretty sure that ruined his chance of cracking the NHL, I hope so anyways.
Since I'm from N-B, I was proud of him being captain and all, but now, I could care less about him, doesn't seem like he cares about his future anyways.

[Shivas Irons]

I don't think it's fair at all. It's too bad that there isn't some type of cross-league suspension rule. Kind of like the NHL has with the AHL.

Excellent point.

[dbleber]

One of the worst cheap shots I've ever seen. Somehow hokey needs to bring respect back to game at all levels. The question of how is where it gets complicated.

[LobWedge]

I don't think it's fair at all. It's too bad that there isn't some type of cross-league suspension rule. Kind of like the NHL has with the AHL.

That's the difference between amateur and professional hockey. The CHL will honour an NHL suspension if a kid gets sent back down, but not the other way around.

[Chambokl]

Cormier has been suspended indefinitely for now... for whatever it means.

We should know more Thursday or Friday.

[mpare]

He should also be charged criminally. This was no accident.

Cormier has been suspended indefinitely for now... for whatever it means.

We should know more Thursday or Friday.

[sensfan63]

He should also be charged criminally. This was no accident.

I usually agree with you on most things, but I cannot disagree more. There is a certain expectation that when you set foot on the ice, you concede that penalties happen and are part of the game. Now, let me be very clear that I DO NOT think that Cormier's elbow should be considered a normal action; however, think of it another way. What if it was a check-from-behind and the result was the same? These kinds of hits (unfortunately) happen all the time, and I can't remember a criminal case in any of them. Hell Brooks Orpik broke Erik Cole's neck a few years ago, and there wasn't talk of criminal action.

I understand the emotional response when something like this happens, but you can't go calling for legal action whenever a player steps over the line like Cormier did. It's a league issue, and if they suspend him for life, that's fine. I wouldn't agree with it, but whatever. Any talk of legal action, though, just isn't called for, IMO.

[thematt]

I would agree in a sense, however there have been several cases where legal action was taken after viscious hits in the past.

Todd Bertuzzi - Steve Moore (Probably the most famous)
Patrick Roy's son (used a stick, but still an on-ice incident)
Marty McSorley - Donald Brashear (again, stick, but it was investigated)

I agree to an extent that when you step onto the ice you are putting yourself on the line, however the physical contact side of hockey is designed to be seperating a man from the puck. That is the purest intent of hitting in hockey. Players aren't stepping onto the ice expecting to get hit in the head when it is clearly not a legal play in hockey at all.

I can completely understand if an injury results from a freak accident, however what he did, he planned to do as soon as he saw Tam not looking directly at him(and if he didn't....that's an even scarier thought). There is no reason Cormier couldn't have used his body to take him out, and people would have been talking about what a huge LEGAL hit it was, but he didn't. He stuck his elbow up (as we have seen him do before) and did his best to make sure that this kid got hurt.

In those cases above, the person doing the hitting was found guilty or pled guilty everytime, so it definitely has happened before, and in this case, it should happen again. I do agree that maybe things like that shouldn't be able to be investigated, however the precedent has been set before.

[mpare]

I guess we'll have to disagree. That said, let me be clear. Mine is not an emotional response. I have been called coldly rational, and that is how I regard this situation. There is precedent that individuals will be held criminally accountable for actions committed during the game if a player's conduct is deserving of such attention. If this isn't, on its face, the kind of conduct that should be soundly and unambiguously censured through the criminal courts, then I don't know what should be.

... I understand the emotional response when something like this happens, but you can't go calling for legal action whenever a player steps over the line like Cormier did. It's a league issue, and if they suspend him for life, that's fine. I wouldn't agree with it, but whatever. Any talk of legal action, though, just isn't called for, IMO.

[sensfan63]

I would agree in a sense, however there have been several cases where legal action was taken after viscious hits in the past.

Todd Bertuzzi - Steve Moore (Probably the most famous)
Patrick Roy's son (used a stick, but still an on-ice incident)
Marty McSorley - Donald Brashear (again, stick, but it was investigated)

I agree to an extent that when you step onto the ice you are putting yourself on the line, however the physical contact side of hockey is designed to be seperating a man from the puck. That is the purest intent of hitting in hockey. Players aren't stepping onto the ice expecting to get hit in the head when it is clearly not a legal play in hockey at all.

I can completely understand if an injury results from a freak accident, however what he did, he planned to do as soon as he saw Tam not looking directly at him(and if he didn't....that's an even scarier thought). There is no reason Cormier couldn't have used his body to take him out, and people would have been talking about what a huge LEGAL hit it was, but he didn't. He stuck his elbow up (as we have seen him do before) and did his best to make sure that this kid got hurt.

In those cases above, the person doing the hitting was found guilty or pled guilty everytime, so it definitely has happened before, and in this case, it should happen again. I do agree that maybe things like that shouldn't be able to be investigated, however the precedent has been set before.

Good points. THe only thing that I'll say is that I've seen the video twice, and both times I thought his original intent was to lay the guy out with a hit, but the guy dangled and he instead stuck the elbow out. So I don't believe he had the intent right from the beginning.

Another thing that's different...this isn't a stick incident, nor did he basically jump the guy from behind. As bad as it sounds, it's the closest thing to a "hockey play" among the other three.

[sensfan63]

I guess we'll have to disagree. That said, let me be clear. Mine is not an emotional response. I have been called coldly rational, and that is how I regard this situation. There is precedent that individuals will be held criminally accountable for actions committed during the game if a player's conduct is deserving of such attention. If this isn't, on its face, the kind of conduct that should be soundly and unambiguously censured through the criminal courts, then I don't know what should be.

My bad, I wasn't trying to say that "your" response was emotional, but the general public's. My apologies for not being clear. I still disagree with you, though.

[mpare]

I can understand your heartfelt, but misguided, position.

My bad, I wasn't trying to say that "your" response was emotional, but the general public's. My apologies for not being clear. I still disagree with you, though.

[dbleber]

I disagree with legal action is this case as well. At the same time, if they have do go down that route to wake the hockey world up and eliminate this crap from the game then I guess we'll have to see. As I mentioned before, finding away for these players to respect each other on the ice is not going to be easy and as an armchair GM I have no answer either.

[thematt]

Good points. THe only thing that I'll say is that I've seen the video twice, and both times I thought his original intent was to lay the guy out with a hit, but the guy dangled and he instead stuck the elbow out. So I don't believe he had the intent right from the beginning.

Another thing that's different...this isn't a stick incident, nor did he basically jump the guy from behind. As bad as it sounds, it's the closest thing to a "hockey play" among the other three.

I don't think that any of the people that I mentioned (save for Patrick Roy's son who I'm not sure about) intended to cause a serious injury at all. I believe that they are trying to intimidate and send a message, but I don't think any mean to cause injury.

That said, what has to be looked at here is the way it happened. This was a hit that was COMPLETELY avoidable and could have easily been a great body/hip check, but he didn't do that. He stuck out his elbow like a coward.

I don't believe that police investigations should be involved with any on-ice incident in the NHL. It's a contact league, and it's up to the league to deal with fines/suspensions etc. I don't want that to sound like a contridiction to my previous post though. In that I only wanted to explain how this instance would have merit based on previous cases where the police were involved.

In hockey, as in any other contact sport, mistakes are going to happen. However, this wasn't a mistake, this was a clear attempt to hurt someone.

I think that the NHL and all other professional hockey leagues need to look at this and start to take action. I know that at the GM's meetings they've been talking about how to get them out of the game without taking hitting out of the game. I think that a massive suspension has to result from a direct hit to the head that could have been avoided. Something along the line of 25 games...it has to be an amount that the person throwing the hit will want to think about before doing it.

[mpare]

Therein lies the fundamental reason of our difference of views. Your assertion means that there is nothing that a hockey player can do during a game, however egregious, that merits police investigation and possible prosecution. Fortunately, the law does not agree with you. No athletes, not even hockey players, are immune from the Criminal Code. For that we should all be grateful.

... I don't believe that police investigations should be involved with any on-ice incident in the NHL. It's a contact league, and it's up to the league to deal with fines/suspensions etc. ...

[thematt]

I agree with you completely on what you are saying, and if the victim of the attack comes forward and wishes to press charges, then I completely agree. I don't agree with the league pushing police to press charges though, or with the coach of the team (ie Patrick Roy in this case) pressing the police.

If Tam's lawyers decide that it is in his best interest to pursue charges against Patrice Cormier, then that is fine with me, but it shouldn't be the league or anyone else that starts that process. Just like in the Bertuzzi case, it was Steve Moore who initiated the charges against Bertuzzi, which to me is fine. He had his career ended by this guy.

Also, unfortunately in a contact game, what injurs one might not injure another, so the question that has to be asked is where do you draw the line? The NHL and all leagues have Intent to Injure rules and penalties associated with them, so at what point do they go past those and decide that police need to be involved? I think that's only a decision that can be made by the victim of the hit.

Therein lies the fundamental reason of our difference of views. Your assertion means that there is nothing that a hockey player can do during a game, however egregious, that merits police investigation and possible prosecution. Fortunately, the law does not agree with you. No athletes, not even hockey players, are immune from the Criminal Code. For that we should all be grateful.

[tmacgolf]

If Tam's lawyers decide that it is in his best interest to pursue charges against Patrice Cormier, then that is fine with me, but it shouldn't be the league or anyone else that starts that process. Just like in the Bertuzzi case, it was Steve Moore who initiated the charges against Bertuzzi, which to me is fine. He had his career ended by this guy.

To me there is no reason, and a bit unfair to make any comparisons to the NHL in things like this. Tam is an 18 year old kid playing in an amateur league. The NHL is a completely different entity altogether, with huge salaries, insurance policies, a union to protect players, etc. If Roy doesn't step in as coach/owner to protect his players, perhaps nobody will. Comparing legal action in junior and NHL is not a good way to look at it as there are way too many variables that are different. Not that it matters, but NHL players who are injured in a situation like this will still be covered financially for the rest of their lives. An amateur player perhaps has plans for a post secondary education or "regular" job after their junior career is over, all of which would be in jeopardy by a hit such as this. A player who is injured severely does not have the same luxuries as a professional athlete. Sometimes a legal and civil case is the only way to cover the incredible costs that may be associated long term for such injuries.

[tmacgolf]

IAlso, unfortunately in a contact game.

I love hockey and played provincial "AAA" so am no stranger to contact, and love it in the game. That hit in no way falls under any definition of "hockey as a contact game". Kicking someone with a skate is also "contact" but not at all part of the game that is hockey. There is no respect for others in the game anymore. Contact in hockey is supposed to be to gain an advantage to the puck or for position against the other team, this vicious elbow to the head was for neither. It was a deliberate attempt to injure, by a player who has a history of such types of hits. Leave contact in the game, take out the dirty, vicious cheap shots that have no point or reason other than to hurt.

[Chambokl]

TMAC... does than mean no long time injuries ... no foul?

Did you guys see the hit of Kassian on Matt Kennedy this week-end (Windsor vs Barrie)

It is funny how this one was not really talked about. It was easy for David Branch to suspend Liambas for life... he was a goon, he is 20 years old, leaves the OHL and goes and play in the IHL, etc...

Cormier and Kassian are younger (can't go play in the AHL), they are stars in their leagues, they both have been drafted high (Kassian – 13th overall), etc...

It will be interesting to see what happens.

[tmacgolf]

TMAC... does than mean no long time injuries ... no foul?

Sorry Chambo, I'm not sure what you are asking....
In my oppinion, it is rediculous that the severity of the injury has anything to do with the punishment. In fact, perhaps part of the problem is that flying elbows like the one being discussed are not punished enough, unless something horrible like this happens. When players are throwing reckless and dirty hits like this one, chancs are somebody is going to be seriously hurt, however, maybe it has been made into such a large problem, because unless a serious injury occurs, the guys is given 5 and a game, and is back doing the same thing the next time (no punishment for Cormier's elbow in the lead up to the world junior's is perhaps a good example).
Let me be clear on my stance, hitting and contact good,
intentional attempts to injure (whether the player actually is seriously injured or not) such as hits from behind, elbows, sticks, etc... have no place in the game and are not punished nearly enough, especially in the amateur ranks.

[byerxa]

TMAC... does than mean no long time injuries ... no foul?

Did you guys see the hit of Kassian on Matt Kennedy this week-end (Windsor vs Barrie)

It is funny how this one was not really talked about. It was easy for David Branch to suspend Liambas for life... he was a goon, he is 20 years old, leaves the OHL and goes and play in the IHL, etc...

Cormier and Kassian are younger (can't go play in the AHL), they are stars in their leagues, they both have been drafted high (Kassian – 13th overall), etc...

It will be interesting to see what happens.

This is where Branch and his counterpart in the Q have to step up. These supposed "star" players should have the book thrown at them to hopefully start setting an example. Besides being the right thing to do, these leagues have to prove to parents they are relatively safe places to send your 16-17 yo to play in. My wife's 16 yo nephew is playing for the Belleville Bulls this year and he had offers from U.S. schools to go play for them (like a lot of the kids). At some point parents will start saying major junior is too dangerous and send their kids down south instead.

[Shivas Irons]

At some point parents will start saying major junior is too dangerous and send their kids down south instead.

On Team1200 this morning Pierre McGuire was saying this is already happening and is a tactic commonly used by US schools to help lure players there.