What do you think of Tiger now?

[tmacgolf]

I too don't really see an option in the poll that I really feels fits for my thinking on this. I have always been a big fan of Tiger's and will continue to be in awe of his abilities. However, I feel a bit let down (I know this is probably a silly feeling for someone I have never and will never meet). I bought into the marketing of him and the image he portrayed. I too accepted the on course antics as a high level of competitiveness and drive, but also bought into the "good guy" image portrayed off the course. I bought the quiet, reserved and devoted family man spiel that I had been sold. I don't look up to athletes as role models, but am certainly drawn in to the notion that some people are given gifts and talents far beyond the average population. In this case I thought that this was an example of one of those humans who not only had amazing talent but was also very grounded, honest, and appreciative of all the gifts that this talent afforded him aka "a good guy". I'm not naive enough to expect that athletes, celebrities and "ordinary folk" won't make mistakes, but I feel lied to in this instance. Charles Barkley never claimed to be anything that he was not. Kobe was a priveldged phenom out of high school and "family man" was never a marketing angle for him. Tiger was different, or at least I was fooled by handlers to believe. Of course he will overcome this in terms of marketing and revenue and yes fans will forget, however, I think his agents are probably busy finding the angle and spin that will be used to build his new image from this point forward. I personally, will not be fooled again.

[SGH]

I like the angle of the following article:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...rticle1386228/

Suggests a lot of what's already been discussed on this board. He's hardly the first, and perhaps we as fans are a bit naive to think he would be any different. Not to say we should assume all athletes are unfaithful, but it may be wrong to assume they're any less likely to be than anyone else simply due to their deemed public accountability.

We, the general public, build up these people to such an unattainable level, and then seem surprised when something like this happens. I admit that I bought into the portrayal of Tiger, but on the other hand, I'm not utterly shocked or disappointed. My opinion of him will remain the same. I'll watch him when he plays golf, and hope he wins. At least when he's on the golf course, we're still witnessing something special.

[nokids]

But he is not married with kids.

Barkley has been married for 20 years to Maureen Blumhardt. The two have one daughter, Christiana.

[hoolio]

How does one like him MORE after this? That is just simply stupid.

I like his commitment to bettering himself... Even after a long day on the course and at the range, he's trying to "Hole out" every chance he can get.

Tiger may have cheated, but the skank who sold the tapes and text messages is the one that I'd rather see tied up and stoned by small children in the middle of town. US Weekly cashes her out for being a dirty home-wrecker who can apparently do nothing better with her life than be a tramp. At least Tiger spreads entertainment to millions all over the world, the only thing that she's likely spreading around requires a doctors visit, and anti-biotics to get rid of.

As you can see I'm in the don't really care that he did it camp. Personally, I wouldn't walk the path he took, but I don't care that he did it or why he did it.

[Hacker]

I'm getting a big kick out of the morality comparisons between Tiger and Phil. These are nothing more then weak attempts at trying to somehow put Phil on equal footing with Tiger.

When it comes to on-course accomplishments Phil pales in comparison to Tiger. When it comes to morality the story is different but I personally don't care.

I don't go around preaching about my morals or try to hold anyone else to my personal moral standards. Morality for me is a personal thing and it will always remain thus.

[3Jack]

When it comes to on-course accomplishments Phil pales in comparison to Tiger. When it comes to morality the story is different but I personally don't care.

As far as we know.

[Hacker]

As far as we know.

Fair enough

[stevek]

Tiger may have cheated, but the skank who sold the tapes and text messages is the one that I'd rather see tied up and stoned by small children in the middle of town. US Weekly cashes her out for being a dirty home-wrecker who can apparently do nothing better with her life than be a tramp.

A bizarre comment. Blaming the woman? This guy cheated on his wife when she was about to give birth! How low is that?

And WTF did Woods think would happen if he cheated and moved on to the next.

This is the skanks one chance at fame c/w possible movie, book deals etc.

I used to question Phil's intelligence when he made some bonehead decisions - but at least they were on the golf course. Woods now takes the cake that will cost much more $$. His squeaky clean image is smashed. Good on Him!

[jonf]

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it in this one. Everyone is passing judgement, but we still don't know what actually happened, or why it happened. Who knows at this point what drove Tiger to his 'transgressions.' We assume it's Tiger because, well, that's more interesting, but none of us have any idea what actually went on behind closed doors.

[tmacgolf]

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it in this one. Everyone is passing judgement, but we still don't know what actually happened, or why it happened. Who knows at this point what drove Tiger to his 'transgressions.' We assume it's Tiger because, well, that's more interesting, but none of us have any idea what actually went on behind closed doors.

You're right. For all we know his pregnant wife was suffering through her pregnancy and not in the mood for sex. What was he to do? Please.....
If he wasn't happy, he had options. Get a divorce, or, don't get married and have kids in the first place. I agree, we don't know what was going on in the house that may have caused this, but still, it does not excuse his actions. As always, he had choices, unfortunately he made the wrong choices and got caught. This "she asked for it" justification for poor life decisions is tired.

[jonf]

You're right. For all we know his pregnant wife was suffering through her pregnancy and not in the mood for sex. What was he to do? Please.....
If he wasn't happy, he had options. Get a divorce, or, don't get married and have kids in the first place. I agree, we don't know what was going on in the house that may have caused this, but still, it does not excuse his actions. As always, he had choices, unfortunately he made the wrong choices and got caught. This "she asked for it" justification for poor life decisions is tired.

And the "let's assume the worst when a famous person is involved" mentality is also quite tired.

How can anyone possibly pass judgement on this situation given the information that we currently have? Nobody knows what was going on...to simply presume that Tiger was in the wrong is irresponsible. Are there better ways to deal with a problem? Yes. But perhaps Tiger was trying to keep the marriage together for the sake of his children, but sought happiness elsewhere? Who knows? My point is, nobody should be passing judgement based on the tiny piece of info we have.


For what it's worth, I think it probably was all Tiger's fault. BUT, I'm not in a position to pass such intense personal judgement on him (as everyone else is doing), because I do not actually KNOW what happened. So, while I suspect that he has nobody to blame but himself, I'm not going to judge the man based on that assumption.

[Colby]

From the Golf Channel - http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-v...26000&rsec=207

[tmacgolf]

And the "let's assume the worst when a famous person is involved" mentality is also quite tired.

How can anyone possibly pass judgement on this situation given the information that we currently have? Nobody knows what was going on...to simply presume that Tiger was in the wrong is irresponsible. Are there better ways to deal with a problem? Yes. But perhaps Tiger was trying to keep the marriage together for the sake of his children, but sought happiness elsewhere? Who knows? My point is, nobody should be passing judgement based on the tiny piece of info we have.


For what it's worth, I think it probably was all Tiger's fault. BUT, I'm not in a position to pass such intense personal judgement on him (as everyone else is doing), because I do not actually KNOW what happened. So, while I suspect that he has nobody to blame but himself, I'm not going to judge the man based on that assumption.

Regardless of what your intentions are, by playing devil's advocate, to prove a point, you are doing exactly what you are chastizing others for doing. However, instead of doing it to Tiger, you are doing it to his wife by making statements to the effect of, "Yes, he cheated, but perhaps she drove him to it". There is a lot more speculation in those comments, then many of the others on this site that are at least based on evidence that is out there. I realize you are just trying to prove a point about speculating, but it ends up the same as all the other posts. We don't know what led Tiger to do this. All we know now, based on the evidence that is out their, is that he did have "indescretions". He admitted this! Those are the only facts. Speculating why he did what he did is irrelevant. In his very cryptic and well scripted way, he admitted to the affairs. That is what people are passing judgement on. And, like it or not, when morality is the issue, people will make judgements. Trying to justifying it, for whatever reason, only fuels the debate.

[jonf]

Regardless of what your intentions are, by playing devil's advocate, to prove a point or not you are doing exactly what you are chastizing others for doing. By speculating that perhaps it is his wife that has issues at home that led Tiger to this, You are doing to her (probably inadvertently), exactly what others for doing to Tiger.

That is an absolutely preposterous line of reasoning. There is an infinite number of possible things that could have happened. I am not saying that any of the things I mentioned did or didn't happen. I am simply pointing out that, while everybody assumes one particular chain of events, there are, in reality, a plethora of alternatives. I am not trying to defend Tiger, I am trying to defend logic and good judgement. You don't conclude a trial based purely on the opening statements. You wait until all the evidence has been shown, and at that point, you come to a conclusion.

I would also say that I am not truly playing devil's advocate. I am playing "don't speak about that which you have know knowledge" advocate.

From what I actually KNOW of both individuals, I have no reason to believe they are anything but good people, with a few character flaws. I do not presume to know any more than that, and so I do not presume to be able to pass judgement on either of them.

We don't know what led Tiger to do this. All we know now, based on the evidence that is out their, is that he did have "indescretions". He admitted this! Those are the only facts. Speculating why he did what he did is irrelevant. In his very cryptic and well scripted way, he admitted to the affairs. That is what people are passing judgement on. And, like it or not, when morality is the issue, people will make judgements. Trying to justifying it, for whatever reason, only fuels the debate.

I am not trying to justify anything, as I don't even know what I'm trying to justify. I'm pointing out that we don't have enough information to pass judgement on anything. Perhaps Tiger's confession was a self sacrificing act designed to hide the truth, and maintain as much normalcy as possible. Perhaps he is jumping in front of the bullet, so to speak, to save his family. Such things have been known to happen.

As you have said, we have basically nothing upon which to judge. So STOP judging.

[tmacgolf]

That is an absolutely preposterous line of reasoning. There is an infinite number of possible things that could have happened. I am not saying that any of the things I mentioned did or didn't happen. I am simply pointing out that, while everybody assumes one particular chain of events, there are, in reality, a plethora of alternatives. I am not trying to defend Tiger, I am trying to defend logic and good judgement. You don't conclude a trial based purely on the opening statements. You wait until all the evidence has been shown, and at that point, you come to a conclusion.

I would also say that I am not truly playing devil's advocate. I am playing "don't speak about that which you have know knowledge" advocate.

From what I actually KNOW of both individuals, I have no reason to believe they are anything but good people, with a few character flaws. I do not presume to know any more than that, and so I do not presume to be able to pass judgement on either of them.



I am not trying to justify anything, as I don't even know what I'm trying to justify. I'm pointing out that we don't have enough information to pass judgement on anything. Perhaps Tiger's confession was a self sacrificing act designed to hide the truth, and maintain as much normalcy as possible. Perhaps he is jumping in front of the bullet, so to speak, to save his family. Such things have been known to happen.

As you have said, we have basically nothing upon which to judge. So STOP judging.

I respectfully disagree. He had an affair. I'm passing judgement on that. Again, you claim to not want people passing judgement on speculations and rumour, but in the quote above, you throw in a completely fictional scenario. Again, no different then the way others are arguing against Tiger. He had an affair, and as I mentioned in previous posts, that is what I am disapointed in. He had choices, and like many others, made the wrong ones. I'm still a Tiger fan, except now it doesn't go any further than the confines of the course.

[sensfan63]

Jason Whitlock's column today:

http://msn.foxsports.com/golf/story/...dia's-game

Please read it. It's perhaps the best piece I've ever read regarding sports and the media.

[John]

Wow.

[tmacgolf]

Jason Whitlock's column today:

http://msn.foxsports.com/golf/story/...dia's-game

Please read it. It's perhaps the best piece I've ever read regarding sports and the media.

Sure, this would be fine if it didn't come from him. There are so many other sports writers out there doing a fair, honest and classy job, I'm not sure why this moron is getting so much attention.
To take a page out of his article, he writes about the importance of knowing the background of another journalist when reading their work, and how it might influence their writing. Perhaps it might be interesting to read the first article I have put the link to as a ,"...little nugget of information <that> would've been very enlightening when reading" his takes on the Tiger "transgressions".
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/10263372/As-Phillips-falls-from-grace,-we-need-to-alter-rules

Not to mention the fact that in two days he goes from ripping the "rags", TMZ, enquireer, to saying in this article that he doesn't have a problem with them and what they do. That he understands their market and they are just doing their job. Well, which is it?

[nokids]

I'm still a Tiger fan, except now it doesn't go any further than the confines of the course.

So prior to this incident, you thought Tiger Woods was a saint off the golf course?

[nokids]

the only people you can safely idolize as role models are those who are dead. The living ones still have time to fall from grace.

[3Jack]

Sure, this would be fine if it didn't come from him. There are so many other sports writers out there doing a fair, honest and classy job, I'm not sure why this moron is getting so much attention.
To take a page out of his article, he writes about the importance of knowing the background of another journalist when reading their work, and how it might influence their writing. Perhaps it might be interesting to read the first article I have put the link to as a ,"...little nugget of information <that> would've been very enlightening when reading" his takes on the Tiger "transgressions".
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/10263372/As-Phillips-falls-from-grace,-we-need-to-alter-rules

Not to mention the fact that in two days he goes from ripping the "rags", TMZ, enquireer, to saying in this article that he doesn't have a problem with them and what they do. That he understands their market and they are just doing their job. Well, which is it?

I am really hoping you read that in the tone intended by Whitlock. You don't actually take him seriously in that Phillips piece do you?

[tmacgolf]

So prior to this incident, you thought Tiger Woods was a saint off the golf course?

Not that this type of sarcastic diatribe deserves a reply but here goes....
I knew of his love of gambling and all things Vegas, I had heard some of the stories of his days at Stanford, and have spent a lot of my life with professional hockey players, so am not naive to what goes on in the lives of athletes and celebrities, however, I have and will never have any time for people who disrespect their family (wife and kis) in this manner. Every one has their moral tipping point, this happens to be mine. I could fill this forum with my own personal mistakes and indescretions, but I promise you adultery is not one of them. So to reiterate a personal moral oppinion that I did not think would need to be justified, I will continue to be a fan of his athletic accomplishments, but have lost respect for him as a person.

[tmacgolf]

I am really hoping you read that in the tone intended by Whitlock. You don't actually take him seriously in that Phillips piece do you?

No, but would it change the piece if he started it with the tidbit of information that he was fired by ESPN and may have an ax to grind with them or anyone affiliated with them? At the time of that article, ESPN had not yet fired Phillips. Just wanted to point out that he too may have written an article (tongue in cheek or not) with a bit of a hidden agenda.

That being said, based on this guys track record, interviews I have seen of his, and stances he has taken in the past, it would be giving him too much credit to assume that he did not write this with a hint of seriousnes.

[3Jack]

I think Whitlock is completely self aware in his latest article, and actually condemns himself along with the rest of the media - as evidenced by his constant use of 'we' when referring to the media.

[jonf]

I respectfully disagree. He had an affair. I'm passing judgement on that. Again, you claim to not want people passing judgement on speculations and rumour, but in the quote above, you throw in a completely fictional scenario. Again, no different then the way others are arguing against Tiger.

I throw out a fictional scenario, yes. But I do not say Tiger should be judged based on that scenario, as I recognize it to be fictional, and state very plainly that it is. I simply use it to demonstrate that given the amount of information we actually DO have, there is very little basis on which people can be making the judgements that they are making.

Sure, if people choose to intentionally misread my comments, then they can argue that I am creating speculation myself. However, any honest appraisal of my comments should make it clear that I am simply advocating judgement based on fact, rather than hearsay.

[nokids]

Not that this type of sarcastic diatribe deserves a reply but here goes....
I knew of his love of gambling and all things Vegas, I had heard some of the stories of his days at Stanford, and have spent a lot of my life with professional hockey players, so am not naive to what goes on in the lives of athletes and celebrities, however, I have and will never have any time for people who disrespect their family (wife and kis) in this manner. Every one has their moral tipping point, this happens to be mine. I could fill this forum with my own personal mistakes and indescretions, but I promise you adultery is not one of them. So to reiterate a personal moral oppinion that I did not think would need to be justified, I will continue to be a fan of his athletic accomplishments, but have lost respect for him as a person.

i wasn't trying to be sarcastic, i was honestly wondering why anyone would think of Tiger for anything more than his athletic accomplishments in the first place. He is a complete stranger from the United States who happens to be good at golf. Period. how many times do we as a society have to build up these people only to watch them mess up, and then people are shocked. SHOCKED! what's that old texas saying: fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice,

i could name many people who have given me a good first impression, only later to find out they are selfish jerks:

movie stars:
harisson ford, the golden boy is having a midlife crisis. nick nolte photo
anakin skywalker, i was really dissappointed in this guy.
kate moss, hang with the wrong crowd and you're doomed like her.
mel gibson, when he's drunk he will really tell you what's on his mind.
David Hasselhoff, classy.


political scandals:
eliot spitzer
larry craig
mark sanford
ted haggard
mark foley
bill clinton
each is mindblowing in its own way.

sports stars:
michael jordan, adultery
kobe bryant , adultery
wilt chamberlain, adultery
Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, McGwuire, Sossa, Palmero, etc. . . all disgraced for steroid use. At least ARod admit it.

famous people in our history:
Judas, sold out Jesus for some silver coins? come on man.
Cypher, sold out Zion to become an actor? come on man.
Satan, you used to be an angel in heaven, what happened bro?

[Colby]

People thought of Tiger as more of a role model because of the image that was portayed of him, either through his handlers or himself. Charity events, the First T program, all of the commercials that put this guy out in front of us as some sort of perfect entity. Fit, handsome, beuatiful wife, money galore, someone to be put on a pedestal and revered. And millions did. And now the fall from grace, and the eventual return to grace. It's something that America loves to do. Shot their heroes and then re-build them. Even Superman died.

[Shivas Irons]

So prior to this incident, you thought Tiger Woods was a saint off the golf course?

While I wouldn't consider myself a Tiger 'fan', and I certainly never thought of him as a saint, before this scandal I did think Tiger was a guy who 'had it together'.

Never did I ever think he would be involved in something this salacious.

His selfishness and stupidity floors me.

[Chieflongtee]

[QUOTE=Colby;338500. Fit, handsome, beuatiful wife, .[/QUOTE]


Handsome I do not think so but I am no woman.Theyn all went nuts for Mick Jagger

Would she have been with him had he not been rich and famous???????

[nokids]

People thought of Tiger as more of a role model because of the image that was portayed of him, either through his handlers or himself. Charity events, the First T program, all of the commercials that put this guy out in front of us as some sort of perfect entity. Fit, handsome, beuatiful wife, money galore, someone to be put on a pedestal and revered. And millions did. And now the fall from grace, and the eventual return to grace. It's something that America loves to do. Shot their heroes and then re-build them. Even Superman died.

i can certainly understand everything you said. except for the "put on a pedestal and revered". he's like 31 years old, we have barely had a chance to know the guy. it's like reading a book halfway through and recommending it to your friends. why not wait until you've read the whole thing? it's like jumping on the Colts or Saints bandwagon because they're 11-0 thinking they're gonna win the superbowl. it's like the leafs winning two in a row and they start planning the parade.