Advice on how to have a FAIR casual two man game

[hackzaw]

So, my regular Sunday game is always with the same foursome. Three of us are "close" in handicap, and the fourth is..... not.

We always alternate the partnerships, and do a two-man best ball; i.e. two against two, and take the low score of one twosome against the low of the other twosome, and just count the holes won/lost. Casual game - losing team buys the beer.

Here's the handicaps of each player

A - 7 (was an 8 most of the season)
B - 10 (could even be a 9)
C - 12 (was a 10, 11, and now 12)
D - 20 (maybe generous)

For YEARS, we've been playing that player D gets a stroke a side, which you might say isn't enough (which is what Player D is saying right now). However, in a two man BB, he's usually riding the back of his partner, and the matches usually come down to the last couple holes.

Player D is saying he isn't getting enough strokes, and is also saying that he's bought more than his share of beer as a result.

So what I'm looking for is what is the right and most fair way to do this?

I think the best way is that everybody should be handicapped, adjusted from the best guy, player A. So player A wouldn't get any strokes and the rest would be like this:

A - 0
B - 3
C - 5
D - 13

Pitching this to player A, he thinks he's getting jipped because he doesn't get strokes, and basically has to play his best. I don't really agree with that.

The other way to do it, is simply everybody get's shots up to their handicap number holes. So, player D would get 2 shots on the two toughest holes.

Thoughts and comments welcomed.

[tmacgolf]

When playing a team best ball (either 4 or 2 man), it is usually reccomended to use only 80-90% of each player's handicap and allow all players to "get strokes". If you want more info on this, there is a ton of info on google.

[jvincent]

All of you can maintain an "official" handicap using the score tracker on this site and then you can allocate strokes fairly.

The 80-90% reduction that tmacgolf suggests is also a good idea even with proper handicaps.

[tmacgolf]

I meant to include in my previous post that I agree with the higher handicap player that a stroke per side is not enough. Handicaps are there for a reason, since it sounds like you all have one, it is not really fair that he doesn't get to use it. Also, it would make sense that by not using handicaps, that his team would buy most often.

[Chambokl]

So we use the 80% strategy....

The HDCP would become:

A – 6
B – 8
C – 10
D – 16

So player D gets a stroke on the hardest 10 holes.
Player C gets a stroke on the hardest 4 holes.
Player B gets a stroke on the hardest 2 holes.

Yes, player A doesn't get any stroke... he is the better player.

If you use the 90% rule the revise hdcp would be 6, 9, 11 and 18.

PS: You could also change partners every 6 holes and the player with the most points is the winner.

[PapaPat]

When playing a team best ball (either 4 or 2 man), it is usually reccomended to use only 80-90% of each player's handicap and allow all players to "get strokes". If you want more info on this, there is a ton of info on google.

What is refered to here is used in Stroke Play events, not FourBall Match Play (2 on 2) which the question deals with. Under RCGA guidelines, the lowest handicap plays from scratch and everyone else gets the net of their 100% handicaps. Low handicappers who want their strokes, really want to shift your help to other than the holes that the Handicap System says you need it most.

However, we must always be aware of the traditions of golf which includes the time honored practice of negotiating the match. For some this is more fun than actually playing it and as a result, many matches are won on the first tee.

And once again, Handicap Stroke holes done properly are not "the hardest" holes.

[hackzaw]

Thanks PapaPat for this. So if it was individual stroke play, then the 80-90% would be appropriate. However for our fourball match play, it's 100% net from the low guy in the group.

I am curious as to your one comment:

"And once again, Handicap Stroke holes done properly are not "the hardest" holes. "

Could you elaborate on this? Are you refferring to how the holes get assigned their handicap numbers. To my knowledge, doesn't the handicap committee look at historical numbers in tournament play on every hole, and basically get the stroke average per hole. Then, each 9 evaluated seperately, they assign all odd number handicaps in ascending order for the front nine, and the even numbers for the back nine.

I guess, I'm just wondering if what I said about how they figure out the handicap number for each hole, are the holes with the highest average scores, not the hardest holes?

BTW - I'm aware that because they rank the front nine and back nine seperately, you could theoretically, if the two nines had dramatically harder/easier holes, you could possibly be giving a stroke to someone on the 10th hardest hole, even if you were only giving them 1 stroke.

[BC MIST]

Under RCGA guidelines, the lowest handicap plays from scratch and everyone else gets the net of their 100% handicaps. Low handicappers who want their strokes, really want to shift your help to other than the holes that the Handicap System says you need it most.

And once again, Handicap Stroke holes done properly are not "the hardest" holes.

Section 9-4(a-iii) of the RCGA Handicap Manual confirms that players should receive 100% of the difference in their handicaps. What the system does not consider is the "margin for improvement," an unofficial term, when establishing these allowances. This simply means that it is easier for a 20 handicap player who averages 92 on the scores used, to score 88, than it is for a 72 player to score 68, an improvement of 4 strokes for both. This is why, IMO, that the allowance ought to be 80% or so, of the difference, not 100%.

How do we change the mindset that holes are handicapped based on how HARD they are? Strokes are generally needed on LONGER holes, not the HARD holes, and par is NOT a consideration.

For anyone interested, the following link outlines how the handicapping should be done and comes from AAA who posted this on another forum.
http://www.englishgolfunion.org/prin...01000200090009

[BC MIST]

I am curious as to your one comment:
"And once again, Handicap Stroke holes done properly are not "the hardest" holes. "

Most would agree that a 200 yard par 3 is a more difficult hole than a 550 yard par 5, based on the club that a scratch golfer would use on his approach. By the hardest hole myth, the par 3 should be ranked lower(harder) than the par 5.

Now, consider a 22 handicap golfer (bogey golfer by definition) playing the par 3. All he needs to do is hit the ball 100 yards, twice, and two putt for his "par," which would be a bogey 4. But, on a 550 yard par 5, there is a much greater probability of his screwing up a couple of shots over that long distance, making scoring a 6, his "par," a lot more difficult. Therefore, this long hole is a greater challenge for him and hence, the need for a handicap stroke as an equalizer. Or, even though a generalization, the shorter the hole, the greater is the chance of the bogey golfer not messing up.

For scratch golfers the longest holes, par 5's, are a feast, but for the higher handicapped golfers, they are famine.

[PapaPat]

I am curious as to your one comment:

"And once again, Handicap Stroke holes done properly are not "the hardest" holes. "

Could you elaborate on this?

BC has done a good job of breaking this down. The proper analysis divides the sample into low handicappers and mid-handicappers and then looks at where the mid-handicapper most needs help to half a given hole. BC has explained how and why this is fairer than just looking at "the hardest" holes. Unfortunately the belief that stroke holes are ranked by difficulty is widespread.

[AAA]

In Europe 4ball match play is done using 3/4 of the difference from the low capper who plays off scratch

[PapaPat]

In Europe 4ball match play is done using 3/4 of the difference from the low capper who plays off scratch

Please don't let anyone over here know that. We have enough problem trying to get people to play by any standard, let alone that which is recommended by the RCGA & USGA.

Actually, I found that quite interesting and wonder if you have any insight as to why there is such a significant difference in the approach used? It can't possibly be that your handicaps are any less acurate than ours.

[jvincent]

IIRC in the UK handicaps are based only on tournament scores.

[AAA]

The Scottish Golf Union in particular has done a lot of statistical studies.

[hackzaw]

So, I'm back to 75%, 80% or 90%.

Well, I think it's fairer anyways. I never did think it was fair...... expecially when player D was my partner! The guy that should be most concerned is Player A. Basically, he's been reaping the advantage against EVERYBODY! Funny, he was always the one saying "Player D, we'll give you 1 a side". Player D says "it's not enough". Player A says "But two aside in a 2-man match is too much".

FWIW - I'm player C. I now get strokes!!!

I think we'll try an 80% next time out.

[justsomeguy]

I think we'll try an 80% next time out.

The biggest problem will always be A+B vs C+D. That's a combined differential of 15 strokes (17 vs 32), which is a lot (even when reduced by the 80% adjustment). By contrast A+D vs B+C is only 5 strokes (27 vs 22), which would probably be in the same flight in many tournaments.

[tmacgolf]

What is refered to here is used in Stroke Play events, not FourBall Match Play (2 on 2) which the question deals with. Under RCGA guidelines, the lowest handicap plays from scratch and everyone else gets the net of their 100% handicaps. Low handicappers who want their strokes, really want to shift your help to other than the holes that the Handicap System says you need it most.

However, we must always be aware of the traditions of golf which includes the time honored practice of negotiating the match. For some this is more fun than actually playing it and as a result, many matches are won on the first tee.

And once again, Handicap Stroke holes done properly are not "the hardest" holes.

I was just giving a suggestion to a question asked for a casual game between friends as the original question asked. Perhaps they could try stroke instead of match play. Each person keeps their 80%/90% cap, you could still rotate the teams throughout, and instead of counting holes won, each player could record the best score on that hole between the two teammates, and then the highest score at the end of the round buys.

[PapaPat]

I was just giving a suggestion to a question asked for a casual game between friends as the original question asked. Perhaps they could try stroke instead of match play. Each person keeps their 80%/90% cap, you could still rotate the teams throughout, and instead of counting holes won, each player could record the best score on that hole between the two teammates, and then the highest score at the end of the round buys.

I understand, and that would also work. Personally, at least based on my club, I do not feel that there is nearly enough game playing of any description in weekly or casual outings. I believe that having a little something on the game, even if it is only a dime, sharpens the focus of play and requires that you develop an understanding of and adherence to the rules to make the games work at all. And, as I said before, games really are part of the tradition of golf.

[tigger12]

Hello;

Have you considered different format. Our regular foursome plays a slightly different stableford system.
bogey 1
par 2
birdie 4
eagle 8
Maximum you can go down on any round is 2 pts and you increase 1 point for every 2 points you are better than your stableford number.
We have a friend who runs a group or 40 to 80 players in Florida on this system.
The good news is it is dynamic. If you are playing well your number goes up and vice versa.
The second feature is if you play teams it is important for each player to contribute based on their ability.
This is great for a 2 man team event.

[hackzaw]

So, two weeks ago, we tried the new format, Player A is the base at 7 hcp, Players B and C agreed to be the same each getting 4 strokes (11 hcp), and Player D being an estimated 17 hcp, got 10 strokes.

The match was Player A and B versus C and D (remember I'm Player C). We (C & D) beat them.... badly. We beat them so bad, even Player D won 2 holes outright, even on stroke holes. Really.... Player A and B played terrible, and often on the same holes.

Player B objects the most to this "different" format. He figures if it stays this way, every three weeks when you're paired up with Player D, you'll drink. He says he doesn't care about the beer, but really just wants to have a meaningful match, and sees 10 strokes insurmountable. But I think he's also forgetting that he now get's 4 strokes, and so do I.

His argument is that looking back at the history of the games with how we used to play it (only Player D got 4 strokes) , most matches went to at least the 16th or further. I only say, in this format, most matches will be close and go the distance.

The following week, we went back to Player D getting 4 strokes and everyone else straight up. It was Player A and D versus B and C. The match was dormi on 17th tee and Player D won the hole. Then on 18 Player D had a makeable birdie putt to win the hole, but missed. Narrow victory for B and C.

I'm not sure what we'll do next year. Maybe buy Player D some lessons so we're all "pretty close" to the same.

[Kilroy]

A 7 handicap gives two 11 'cappers no strokes and an 17 handicap 4 strokes. Mr D will buy beer for A and his partner each week.

There is a proper way to apply handicap strokes. You should be using the proper method, or not using handicaps at all. I would opt out of the wager under those circumstances (unless I was player A ).

[ironmaster15213]

You can also go a completely different direction and play off of the wins and not the handicap. I used to do this all the time, you start off giving 100% handicap to your opponent if you win he or she gets another extra stroke next time you play. If you lose they get one stroke less next time. This way your pretty much guaranteed of finishing up not winning or losing much money or beers over the year but always have a wager to push you to play your best. If you play teams it's the same idea but you had better have a little note book to keep track of who gets how many strokes week to week. Playing this way you ignore real handicaps after starting the season.