Need opinions: Greyhawk (CL) or Camelot

[AJP007]

Can anyone offer feedback on Camelot vs Greyhawk.
I am looking to get a new membership for 2010.
I am currently a member at EL. (I am not renewing because the greens are really crappy and they just don't spend the money to work on it. So it will be worse next year)
My thoughts are as follows but I can't seem to pick a clear winner.


PRICE
Greyhawk seems to be cheaper but not anything major. To me its almost the same.
8K initiation plus 3K annual dues for Greyhawk
8K initiation (quite a few members selling their share at this price) plus 4K for annual dues for Camelot.
F&B cheaper at Greyhawk (600 vs 1100)


COURSE
I have played Camelot many times and it is a great track.
Very challenging and tough greens.
Definately will not be bored playing the course.
Haven't played Greyhawk so I need to check it out but from reviews/feedback on this forum it seems like a much easier course (which is not a bad thing...just different)


PRACTICE FACILITIES
Camelot is very nice.
I don't know much about GH.


CLUBHOUSE
Camelot is awesome. Locker room is first class.
Greyhawk should be ok I am guessing.


EQUITY MEMBERSHIP VS NON EQUITY
Seems to me a moot point.
Not such a big deal (I think).


DISTANCE
I am currently in Upper Hunt Club so GH is close.
I have driven to Camelot many times, and as long as I am not going during peak hours I am only 25 minutes. But definatley, GH is closer.


INTANGABLES
I have met very nice people at Camelot and I like the crowd.
But I am sure it would be the same at GH (I think?)
I am not so much concerned about recipricol benefits etc. (I have changed my mind on this. It is definately a plus on the CL side)


Can anyone offer me any feedback in helping me make a decision?

Thanks in advance.

[funk-like]

I have not played Camelot - I have heard great things though. I am a Greyhawk member. I would recommend you play both courses there before you make your decision. I am sure the club would let you on - so you can assess it. The practice facilities at GH are very good. The clubhouse is being built as we speak - should be ready for the start of the 2010 season and should be very nice. Recipricol play may not be a big deal for you, but I know it is great to be able to play 2 courses at GH, and 3 others in the area, plus the ones in Montreal/Toronto and Muskoka. I played 3 rounds in the Toronto area a few weeks ago- the greens fees alone would have been over $400 and I played for free - there is value in the ability to do that in my opinion. GH members are generally great to play with - this weekend I have played 3 rounds, as a single and been paired up with others who I would be glad to play with again. There is no 'attitude' at GH that I have seen.
I have a friend who has been a member at the Hunt for many years. When he comes to GH, or Eagle Creek etc, he sees it as a nice break - since playing the same course for 20 years gets a little old - no matter how nice it is. Anyway, these are my opinions, I have been very happy with my GH membeship, the people at the club are great, the clubhouse will be nice, and the practice facilities are great. Add the recipricol play, and its a good deal.

[Colby]

There is a special referral rate at Greyhawk right now, call Jonathan Bodden at Kanata to find out what it is. CL is spending over 5M on the clubhouse and it is shaping up very nicely. The courses play nicely, depending on the tees, both can be tricky stretching back over 7000 yards.

The membership at Greyhawk is also very good. It is sitting around 800 members and both Men's and Ladies nights are busy with over 300 men in the league. It is competitive and lots of fun.

When you talk to Jonathan, let him know that you haven't played Greyhawk and he will arrange to get you out. You will enjoy it.

[fundonny]

Curious, if you're on Hunt Club, why not the Hunt Club? I'm on the verge of joining for next season cause I can walk there.

[AJP007]

24K vs 8K initiation is quite a difference.

[fundonny]

If you're under 40, they have a great deal (in my opinion). Otherwise you're right, too pricy in one shot.

[AJP007]

Yup. For us over 40 and under 43 its quite a saving.

[quinner]

Keep this in mind as well. If you join Greyhawk you also can play Kanata, Eagle Creek, Hautes Plaines and all the courses in Montreal, Toronto, Muskokas and Tremblant. Just keep that in mind, that you aren't REALLY joining just one course with Greyhawk.

I am currently a CL member and don't know if I could play the same course all the time. I truly enjoy the idea that I have a number great courses to pick from.

[Indio]

AJP,

I would check with Camelot to see if you are allowed to purchase an individuals share. A few years back when I was looking I was told that I had to buy the share through the club, that members were not allowed to sell at 'lower' than the actual assessed value. This may have changed since then but you should enquire before you leap into buying one. Good luck with your choice, I don't think you can go wrong either way

[Domo]

I joined GreyHawk last season. It's worked out quite well. A couple more considerations should you choose to join this year, they will likely waive your fees for the rest of the year (outside the initiation) i.e. play the rest of 2009 for free. Additionally,there may be a possibility to pay out your initiation over six annual installments (as you are over 40) with no financing charge and if you decide it's not for you in a couple of years, you can walk away no strings attached. One of the plusses of the non-equity thing.
There are trade-offs of course: tournaments making the courses unavailable for one; Not sure how that impacts Camelot.

[AJP007]

In your opinion. Were there a lot of tournaments at GH this year?

[3Jack]

Greyhawk is my home course, joined this year. While there have been some conditioning issues this year (dead spots on some fairways), I have thoroughly enjoyed Greyhawk, and the other Clublink options that it provides me in the area, and beyond. The new clubhouse at Greyhawk is going to be very nice - and despite what you may hear, the patios are high enough to view the adjacent greens, so you can have your post round drink and watch others finish.

While Greyhawk does host tournaments, they are by no means alone in this among Clublink courses. That said, if there was a tournament at Greyhawk, on either one or both courses, it wasn't a problem getting on Hautes Plaines, Kanata, or Eagle Creek. You will always have an opportunity to play, and staff makes it so every course feels like your home course.

[DewDuster]

If you are comparing golf courses, it's hands down in Camelot's favour. Greyhawk has 2 decent, but quite average tracks. The rationale used for joining Greyhawk is rarely about how great the 2 golf courses are there, but about all the other courses in the Clublink family you can play. The best thing people will say about Greyhawk courses is how hard and long it is from the tips. Greens were great out there this year but there were some large, completely dead patches on several fairways

Golf-wise in Ottawa, I think it boils down to the ability to play a fantastic course in Camelot or 4 mediorce courses and a great one in Eagle Creek.

For the out of town courses, Camelot, like almost all top tier private courses has reciprocals with other courses. I don't know all of Camelot's but it includes Cataraqui in Kingston which is a great Stanley Thompson design.

It's also quite easy to find someone at the Royal, Hunt, Rivermead etc. in town who will do a home-home with you. Will cost you a Camelot guest fee, but some great options for variety.

You can also get access through your pro to virtually any private club in Canada. You'll have to pay a guest fee (sometimes large) but it may get you access to places like St. Georges, Royal Montreal, Hamilton etc. As attested on another thread, they won't do this for Clublink courses just top tier private courses.

There seem to be a lot of tournaments at Greyhawk, I've played in a couple this year. Access to a tee time is not an issue with the other Clublink options, but there's also the wear and tear on the course done by tournaments full of non-members. I think there's only a couple outside tournament at Camelot.

All that being said, Clublink does provide decent value. There are some ok courses here and I think Eagle is definitely a top 3 course in Ottawa. It will be cheaper there and the new clubhouse will make give it a better private club experience. However it's not just Clublink that can provide you access to other golf options and Camelot will offer a more traditional private club experience, which may be a pro or con for you.

Good luck and enjoy where-ever you end up.

[Colby]

I would disagree that the courses at Greyhawk are average. Average to what? Other Ottawa area courses, or courses elsewhere? AJP007 already said that they weren't interested in reciprocal play, so you are left to what he wants, a good home course to play on. Days of play are also not indicate din the original post. Corporate tournaments are Mondays or Tuesdays (I can't remember when I've seen both days in a week) and weekend times are easy to get, I phoned Sunday night and got an 8:16 tee time on Predator for Holiday Monday.

Back to the courses. With the exception of 3/4/5 on Talon, that course is a joy to play with water coming in to play on 12 of 18 holes, big greens, big bunkers and other hazard/out of bounds areas. Predator also has lots of water, and while Talon is more parkland, Predator is a links style course, which I have never been unhappy to play. As for the patchy areas, they do not affect play and in the seven years I have been there, I have never seen them before. The grounds crew, depending on the winter, will have those cleaned up next year. Clublink continues to improve the course and is supposed to have club storage next year. Talon is a relatively new course, only around 5 years old, while Predator is only a couple of years older. When I played it yesterday, I noticed how things were growing in nicely. As these courses mature, this will be one of the premium complexes in the area. Given the driving range, practice bunker and practice green, the warmup/practice facilities are awesome. Lessons are available and the staff has always been excellent and friendly.

It may not have the elevation changes that Camelot has, but I certainly would not put it in the class of Hunt Club, Rivermead, the Royal or Rideauview. I've played Camelot, and although it's a great course, I would not want to play just that 18 everytime I went out, and as for finding someone to do a home-and-home, that requires coordination, where if I want to play somewhere else, including eight of the Top 100 courses in Canada, including 2 in the top 20, I just call 1 number and book a time. http://scoregolf.com/rankings/top100...anada-2008.cfm In fact Eagle Creek is the only Ottawa course on that list, and I play that for free when I want. Le Maitre is two hours away and I play that for free, all part of my membership, no additional fees to pay anybody!

[AJP007]

I appreacite everyones feedback.
Good opionions.

Keep them coming because I am more on the the fence than ever!!!!

QUESTION: How are the golf rounds at CL courses. I know Camelot is a typical 4 hr round. Same for CL? Also, what do you think about this observation? Camelot is trying to get their membership to 450 and then waiting lists. Whereas CL (greyhawk) has over 850 members. So maybe slower rounds?

Thanks again to all for your feedback.

[3Jack]

I appreacite everyones feedback.
Good opionions.

Keep them coming because I am more on the the fence than ever!!!!

QUESTION: How are the golf rounds at CL courses. I know Camelot is a typical 4 hr round. Same for CL? Also, what do you think about this observation? Camelot is trying to get their membership to 450 and then waiting lists. Whereas CL (greyhawk) has over 850 members. So maybe slower rounds?

Thanks again to all for your feedback.

Keep in mind that there are 36 holes at Greyhawk, so 850 members is not out of line. I haven't had a round longer than 4.15 this year at GH, or any other CL course.

[AJP007]

excellent. that is good to hear.

[habsfan]

joined clublink this year, i do not regret it one bit, I was looking around great deals at hunt club and rideauview but after playing the 2 courses I quickly told myself how can i come here every night and every weekend and play the same damn course all summer long, it just made no sense. You dont have to worry about those 5hr rounds with CL, can take off to Montreal/Tremblant for a day and come back, honestly what swayed it for me was the fact I would of had to play the same course everyday, very happy with my decision, if you wanna save a few bucks join Hautes Plaines, plenty of guys only play 10-20% of there rounds at there home course so dont feel bad.

[dwalker]

I am not a member at either course, but I have played them on a few occassions (especially Grey Hawk). Camelot is an incredible track and everything is top notch. Greyhawk is also very nice, plus you get the bonus of 2 different courses to play.
The only downside I see with Camelot is the elevation changes and how they affect walking the course. If you normally ride, its not a problem, but if you prefer to walk, you may find it not as much fun, especially during the closing 5 holes on the back nine when the elevation changes are most pronounced.

[Michael]

I had the same choice, ended up joining Camelot and have no regrets. It is a very nice course and I live close to it, that was a big factor for me. Very few tournaments, no problems with tee times and one of the best practice facilities in the area. I also walk and carry my bag but the last few holes are a challenge for sure.

[AJP007]

joined clublink this year, i do not regret it one bit, I was looking around great deals at hunt club and rideauview but after playing the 2 courses I quickly told myself how can i come here every night and every weekend and play the same damn course all summer long, it just made no sense. You dont have to worry about those 5hr rounds with CL, can take off to Montreal/Tremblant for a day and come back, honestly what swayed it for me was the fact I would of had to play the same course everyday, very happy with my decision, if you wanna save a few bucks join Hautes Plaines, plenty of guys only play 10-20% of there rounds at there home course so dont feel bad.

Very interesting points. I was thinking reciprocal play wouldn't be a big deal but I know I played a lot of different courses this year and I know my Camelot buddies do as well. Regarding your point on joing HP. Is that true. You can join HP but spend 99% of yoru time playing the other courses? Is this just a loophole? Why doesn't everyone do this?

[habsfan]

Very interesting points. I was thinking reciprocal play wouldn't be a big deal but I know I played a lot of different courses this year and I know my Camelot buddies do as well. Regarding your point on joing HP. Is that true. You can join HP but spend 99% of yoru time playing the other courses? Is this just a loophole? Why doesn't everyone do this?

many guys do this Allen Mcgee included, I dont know why most people dont do this, I know a guy who switched to Kanata cause he knew he had no chance at the OVGA, interclub, and CC at hautes plaines. I quickly fell in love with hautes plaines and being 5-10 minutes from downtown is perfect as well. I made the point of saying I was only joining Hautes Plaines cause it was cheapest and Jonathan didnt try to sway me very much, although I have played 60% of my rounds at HP.

[lms]

To me I did not care if Camelot was "nicer" than the clublink courses, and having played it I would agree it is a nice course, but not worth what they charge (at least not to me), and it is only marginally nicer than the Ottawa Clublink courses. I would get very bored playing the same course all the time, and I don't care about reciprocal play as it will cost $100++ every place you go. I play Tremblant and the Muskoka courses multiple times each every year (and they all blow away Camelot), and I play them all for $20 (for the cart).

You can join HP and play wherever you want (I have only been to HP twice this year), although I have since joined Greyhawk. You can also pay the "joining fee" in 72 interest free installments if you are over 40, 12 more for each year you are under 40.

[Marcos]

I thought you had to play 55% of your games at your home course when joining CL.Is this still in effect?Also when booking other CL clubs,the members who belong to the club get priority,am i right to assume this?Having said this all CL courses are great to play on and its nice to have a variety of high end courses.
A lot of people put Hautes Plaines down but its the greatest little course that will kick your butt in the Gatineau-Ottawa area in my own humble opinion.Always in top shape and easy access from downtown.

[lms]

I thought you had to play 55% of your games at your home course when joining CL.Is this still in effect?Also when booking other CL clubs,the members who belong to the club get priority,am i right to assume this?Having said this all CL courses are great to play on and its nice to have a variety of high end courses.
A lot of people put Hautes Plaines down but its the greatest little course that will kick your butt in the Gatineau-Ottawa area in my own humble opinion.Always in top shape and easy access from downtown.

There is no restriction to play any number of rounds anywhere.

You are only allowed to play in club events (mens night, club championship, etc.) at your home course.

Most courses protect the first hour (or two) on weekend mornings for their own members. Having said that I have never had an issue getting an early tee time at Greyhawk. And you can often get an early weekend Eagle Creek time by booking at the last minute as they release the unbooked protected times.

The only Clublink course that seems to suffer from "long" rounds is Eagle Creek, even the resort courses do a good job of keeping it to around 4 hours. And at EC an early tee time usually corresponds to a 4 hour round. Eagle Creek has also done a pretty good job this year of spraying to keep the bugs down, only one round this year was I bothered by bugs - and I have been there quite often.

I like HP a lot, just never seem to get there (mostly because the few guys I do play with hate it).

[justsomeguy]

I thought you had to play 55% of your games at your home course when joining CL.Is this still in effect?

Clublink members can verify this, but I believe you have to play 55% of your rounds in your home REGION - not necessarily your home course. IOW, they don't want people who live in the GTA taking out a membership at HP and then playing at Rattlesnake Point every weekend.

[DewDuster]

I would get very bored playing the same course all the time, and I don't care about reciprocal play as it will cost $100++ every place you go. I play Tremblant and the Muskoka courses multiple times each every year (and they all blow away Camelot), and I play them all for $20 (for the cart).

Actually reciprocal clubs at private courses are free. So a Camelot member could play Cataraqui in Kingston or York Downs in Toronto and a couple of others. Most high end clubs have reciprocal agreements which allow you to play other clubs. Being a relative newer club, Camlelot has a fairly short list, The Royal has the most impressive list of Ottawa clubs with Royal Montreal, London Hunt, Mayfair, Royal Quebec, St. Charles and lots in the UK and Australia. The Hunt has several with clubs in Montreal (Summerlea, Beaconsfield), Toronto (Summit, Thornhill, Islington, Weston) and out west.

They of course don't have reciprocals within Ottawa, but only Eagle Creek "blows away" Camelot.

You hear less about the reciprocal opportunities from members of traditional clubs here, because they primarily talk about their own golf course and amenities even though their out of town access to free golf at other clubs is quite impressive. When you hear of the benefits from Greyhawk, rarely is the first thing mentioned the golf courses there, but instead all the other golf courses you can play.

[AJP007]

You think Eagle Creek blows away Camelot? Really? Based on what. Just asking...I havent play EC.

[Thunder]

Just to let you know, "Allen McGee" does not do that. I have played a good 55% of my games at HP this year and the rest at Kanata basically. I only played EC 6 times this year and Talon once. Predator once. Last year I played alot more towards the Kanata and EC side, but not this year. All in all, Club Link is the best thing that we decided to do golf wise. In 2 years, I have never once not been able to get a tee time somewhere in Ottawa (CL course) calling the morning of...

Camelot is great though...some of the best greens in the city, but I would stay at CL I were given the option.

Good Luck.

[AJP007]

Thanks Thunder.
I was wonder who the heck is Allen McGee and why are we supposed to know him!