Rule 33 - 7 Disqualification Penalty

[mberube]

From the time it is your turn to play until you strike the ball, ask a partner to time you and most people will probably be between 15-20 seconds.

I totally agree that when it's your time to play it will take 15-20 seconds but before that time comes I prepare mentally different aspects of the upcomming shot. I think that's what El tiger is talking about.

Like I sed, I have absolutely no idea how long it take but I will find out.

[broken27]

I am certainly very curious as to the enforcability of this DQ business for swearing. I have "potty mouth" quite a bit when I'm playing lousy. Usually I mutter stuff under my breath, and if I feel that maybe I've offended someone with a weaker tolerance for foul language, I generally apologize. But how could it come down to anything but "he said/she said" of sorts? Unless a rules official heard me swear (and admittedly BC MIST's original case is fairly unique), all I have to do is deny it.

Throwing clubs? Well, as long as they don't hit me, and it doesn't slow the round down or damage the course, that's fine with me. I've tossed the odd iron. Broke my sand wedge over my knee this winter. Who cares? It's my club, not yours.

Anything directly affecting someone else's round, or enjoyment thereof, I'd be willing to adjust to a request, but other than that I think it's laissez-faire. Who wants to win because of a DQ anyways...

Dan

PS - I suddenly have an urge for a Dairy Queen Blizzard......

[BC MIST]

Throwing clubs? Well, as long as they don't hit me, and it doesn't slow the round down or damage the course, that's fine with me. I've tossed the odd iron. Broke my sand wedge over my knee this winter. Who cares? It's my club, not yours.
Anything directly affecting someone else's round, or enjoyment thereof, I'd be willing to adjust to a request, but other than that I think it's laissez-faire. Who wants to win because of a DQ anyways...Dan
PS - I suddenly have an urge for a Dairy Queen Blizzard......

I suppose everyone has a different tolerance level for bad etiquette, regardless of what the offending behaviour is. If in your group, tossing clubs, swearing, moving and talking are OK and does not affect the quality of shot that is played, then no harm is done.

However, there is still an acceptable standard of behaviour for the game and it is outlined in the Etiquette section of the Rule book. That is how the game should be played so that all players can play uninhibited and what an improving and maturing golfer should aspire to.

I understand golf's frustration and in my immature times I have tossed and broken clubs, l but when I saw this in others I realized how dumb I looked. I also realized that I could not come back after a bad start in a game if I got angry so I no longer do.

Playing with golfers who do not know how to play with others diminishes the enjoyment of the game and too often performance is affected. In the same way that we are all trying to become better players, trying to become a better golfer to play with is important, too.

[NoBack]

Again ............... well said!

[Deep Woods]

I understand golf's frustration and in my immature times I have tossed and broken clubs, l but when I saw this in others I realized how dumb I looked. I also realized that I could not come back after a bad start in a game if I got angry so I no longer do.

Its very hard for a person like me, while playing a round, NOT to vent somehow. I don't throw clubs, I don't slam the club, etc., but I do mutter a swear word or two, usually muttered. Its very very hard (for me) to keep that in, and zen doesn't cut it for me.

When I'm in company that I SUSPECT can't tolerate it, I try (and usually succeed) in zipping it...

The only solution I found was to laugh maniacly instead when i had a bad shot. Unfortunately, the Japanese couple I was playing with either thought I was happy-go-lucky or insane...the woman seemed to really like it.

[broken27]

I suppose everyone has a different tolerance level for bad etiquette, regardless of what the offending behaviour is. If in your group, tossing clubs, swearing, moving and talking are OK and does not affect the quality of shot that is played, then no harm is done.

However, there is still an acceptable standard of behaviour for the game and it is outlined in the Etiquette section of the Rule book. That is how the game should be played so that all players can play uninhibited and what an improving and maturing golfer should aspire to.

I understand golf's frustration and in my immature times I have tossed and broken clubs, l but when I saw this in others I realized how dumb I looked. I also realized that I could not come back after a bad start in a game if I got angry so I no longer do.

Playing with golfers who do not know how to play with others diminishes the enjoyment of the game and too often performance is affected. In the same way that we are all trying to become better players, trying to become a better golfer to play with is important, too.

Maybe it's just because you had quoted my post in your ensuing rebuttal. I just wanted to clarify that I very much take into account what my playing partners' sensibilities are. It's not like I walk up and down the course dropping four-letter "F-Bombs" or anything. I basically just laugh and mutter a few under my breath. Depending on my playing partners, the volume gets adjusted.

Certainly golf is very much a game revolving around etiquette. I am aware that there are rules governing that. In my opinion, whoever wrote rules about etiquette is likely quite a tight-ass, but that's fair enough. Takes all kinds, and since those rules existed before I did, and definitely since before I took up the game, I generally play within them.

Breaking a club is not unsportsmanlike in and of itself. It's my club, and if I want to break it (I did this to my SW to force me not to use it anymore), that's my business. Could I have waited until the round was over? YES. Did I? NO, but I was also after having about 15 beers (was my B-Day). It was also at the Master's Club indoor facility, where I am of the belief that the rules of golf do not really apply.

Cheers, hope to someday play a round with ya Lyle.

Dan

[Kilroy]

There is no mention of foul language or club breaking here
http://www.rcga.org/english/Rules/rules_etiquette.asp

I also found this in the decisions:

Q. Rule 4-3a states that a club may be replaced if it becomes “damaged in the normal course of play.” A player has a habit of hitting the head of his putter on the ground as he walks to the next tee, especially after missing a putt. On one occasion, after missing a short putt, the player hit the head of his putter on the ground so hard that the putter broke. The player said that he often taps the putter on the ground, and that it was not done in anger or with the intention of breaking the club. Should he be allowed to replace the club?

A. No. A club broken by hitting it hard on the ground or tapping it on the ground is not considered to have become “damaged in the normal course of play” as such actions are not related to making a stroke.



Q. A player who started a round with 13 clubs broke his putter in anger, i.e., other than in the normal course of play, during the first nine holes. He bought another putter in the pro shop after the first nine holes and used it for the remainder of the round. Rule 4-3a(iii) permits replacing a club only if it becomes unfit for play in the normal course of play. Was the player subject to penalty?
A. No. Since he started with 13 clubs, he was entitled to add another club under Rule 4-4a

One would think from reading this that it's pretty common to break clubs in anger, since the decisions cover what you can do with regards to replacing the club. It seems that these temper tantrums, although unseemly, are not grounds for DQ. If it were, then that certainly would be doccumented too.

[Deep Woods]

....but I was also after having about 15 beers (was my B-Day). It was also at the Master's Club indoor facility, where I am of the belief that the rules of golf do not really apply.

I don't think he was talking specifically about you, and your case seems to be the exception.

Speaking as someone with temper "issues", I have trouble with it, and felt like a moron doing it...but golf seems to get to me sometimes...other days, its like heaven on earth.

No one needs to see me lose it, or curse, and I do think its childish. On the flip side, I sometimes play with people who curse every second word, so I feel a bit more relaxed in those settings.

[Farzin]

Speaking as someone with temper "issues", I have trouble with it, and felt like a moron doing it...but golf seems to get to me sometimes...other days, its like heaven on earth.

Tell us something that we don't know.

[broken27]

I don't think he was talking specifically about you, and your case seems to be the exception.

Speaking as someone with temper "issues", I have trouble with it, and felt like a moron doing it...but golf seems to get to me sometimes...other days, its like heaven on earth.

No one needs to see me lose it, or curse, and I do think its childish. On the flip side, I sometimes play with people who curse every second word, so I feel a bit more relaxed in those settings.

Farzin, my friend, I must say that your answer to this is hopefully a barb based on forum exchanges over the last few days.

I can understand Deep Woods' statement fairly objectively, and totally relate to it. That's very weird of me to say, since he and I are normally at polar opposites.

Deep Woods - I can only offer you this advice: Sometimes it's okay to hate, want to hurt, or even just scream out the most outrageous sh|t that you can possibly string together. It's harder to accept when it's about yourself, or your ability to perform the simple task of using your body to manipulate a little white ball towards a little 6" deep hole in the ground for whatever conceivable reason). Feeling stupid about it doesn't mean anything but that your instinct contradicts your adopted sensibilities. I know that sounds trite, but it's meant with the best of intention.

Swear as much as you want until someone asks you to stop, or you run out of air!!! Just please don't do it in my backswing, and never too loud!

Dan - SH|TDISTURBER X-TRA ORDINAIRE! (I mean this with the hope that all of us can drop this bs cross-thread hijack nonsense. It's really unfair, and while interesting to us all, a real pain for Ottawagolf forum users I'm sure.)

[Deep Woods]

Tell us something that we don't know.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt Farzin, and assume you're talking about the golf being "heaven on earth" part...

While I don't know you, never met you, I'll also assume there's a small chance you're an ok guy...

[NoBack]

While I don't know you, never met you, I'll also assume there's a small chance you're an ok guy...

He is

[broken27]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt Farzin, and assume you're talking about the golf being "heaven on earth" part...

While I don't know you, never met you, I'll also assume there's a small chance you're an ok guy...

No such thing as heaven really, as far as I'm aware. But golf is definitely golf on earth!!!! And a damn fine use of 3-4 hours, depending on pace of play.

Dan

[Colby]

No such thing as heaven really, as far as I'm aware. But golf is definitely golf on earth!!!! And a damn fine use of 3-4 hours, depending on pace of play.

Dan

Or six hours like Sunday, hahahahaha

[broken27]

And yeh. Farzin is a good guy.

Dan

[broken27]

Or six hours like Sunday, hahahahaha

That was the best Father's Day I've had in the 1 + years of being a father.... Can't believe you played 18 holes (over the 27 we played) in the morning before we got there... But after seeing/playing at Greyhawk, I can understand how a person might play 45 holes in a day... My wife's very mad because I wanna get in on the membership with Clublink.....lol

Dan

[BC MIST]

Maybe it's just because you had quoted my post in your ensuing rebuttal. I just wanted to clarify that I very much take into account what my playing partners' sensibilities are. It's not like I walk up and down the course dropping four-letter "F-Bombs" or anything. I basically just laugh and mutter a few under my breath. Depending on my playing partners, the volume gets adjusted.Dan

My "your group" in my post above refers to anyone's playing partners, not specifically to yours, Dan.

What seems to set you apart from a lot of golfers is that you are aware of how your partners feel about your reactions to your poor swings and if you know someone is going to be upset by them, you modify your behaviour. This is great as most golfers who become volatile on occasions, are selfishly unconcerned about the affect their behaviour has on others.

In our group of about 12 golfers, scoring as low as possible is the goal, and so it is usually pretty quiet when someone else plays a shot, however, we still have our share of swearing and whining, most of which is short lived. Perhaps I am hypocritical but when I play with folks who talk and move or whatever, whom I know don't know any better, it does not bother me anmd I can adjust, however, the same behaviour from those who do know better is an irritant because it's being done deliberately and I will just stand there until they get the message.

There is also, generally, a high correlation between those golfers who are older and play in tournaments outside their member club and the quality of their etiquette. The OVGA Seniors tournaments, for example, are most enjoyable as the players stay out of your way completely when it is your turn to play, are still trying to beat your ass, and yet are genuinely happy for you when you do well or hit a good shot. They also leave you alone when you don't. The other thing that happens is that if you make an etiquette mistake, you are very quickly told and you normally don't do it again. This might sound extreme to some, but, it makes the round more enjoyable for all.

[NoBack]

In our group of about 12 golfers, scoring as low as possible is the goal, and so it is usually pretty quiet when someone else plays a shot, however, we still have our share of swearing and whining, most of which is short lived. Perhaps I am hypocritical but when I play with folks who talk and move or whatever, whom I know don't know any better, it does not bother me anmd I can adjust, however, the same behaviour from those who do know better is an irritant because it's being done deliberately and I will just stand there until they get the message.

Been there done that. Your post is a well writen and true fact.

It is more of an infraction of the etiquette when it comes from someone who knows better, especially if after a few years of playing together they know your reactions and behaviour flaws more than you do.

I mostly do the quiet thing when things arent going well. Walk by myself, chat about why why why to myself, and hopefully pull out of it before the next tee, although it happens for longer periods.

And this comming from a guy who tends to, how shall I put this, yak alot between shots. So when this happens and I do get quiet, I know it also affects my playing partners and some of their enjoyment. Others I play with have other side affects of playing poorly. The "throw your club as far as I can, as long as it dont end up in a tree" type, the "I dont care anymore" type, the "whine whine whine and whine again" type and even the "I'll see you guys later" type.

The other thing that happens is that if you make an etiquette mistake, you are very quickly told and you normally don't do it again. This might sound extreme to some, but, it makes the round more enjoyable for all.

If there was more of this going on in a regular sat/sun round for recreational and weekend golfers, we would all benefit bigtime.

[Deep Woods]

If there was more of this going on in a regular sat/sun round for recreational and weekend golfers, we would all benefit bigtime.

True, but lets give the benefit of the doubt. Having "introduced" a lot of people to the game of golf, I am quick to tell them the etiquette aspects when were out on a par 3 for the first time. OFTEN, people are slow to absorb that info, so I often repeat it.

What I notice from OTHER new/amateur golfers is that (1) they have never been told the etiquette portion, and therefore (2) they are ignorant of any bad behaviour.

Its hard to fault ignorance over purposeful/intentional poor behaviour.

Every course or instructor or SOMEONE should hand out, before a round, a TINY piece of paper that says "New to golf? here are some basic dos/donts".

#1 is (everyone here knows) don't talk during someone's swings. Silly, but do you know how many twosomes I've been partnered with who talk during my swing? A lot.

[The Shtick]

#1 is (everyone here knows) don't talk during someone's swings. Silly, but do you know how many twosomes I've been partnered with who talk during my swing? A lot.

Does it bother you THAT much that a "new" golfer talks during your swing? You can't just assume that everyone knows the proper etiquette on the course. It's a fact of life my friend. Sure, you tell them that it is wrong and explain to them why. Personally, I love playing golf with these "new" golfers. I can teach them many things (including etiquette) and mainly, how to enjoy the game.

Case in point, it's only a game and not a way of life

[BC MIST]

I mostly do the quiet thing when things arent going well. Walk by myself, chat about why why why to myself, and hopefully pull out of it before the next tee, although it happens for longer periods.
And this comming from a guy who tends to, how shall I put this, yak alot between shots. So when this happens and I do get quiet, I know it also affects my playing partners and some of their enjoyment. Others I play with have other side affects of playing poorly. The "throw your club as far as I can, as long as it dont end up in a tree" type, the "I dont care anymore" type, the "whine whine whine and whine again" type and even the "I'll see you guys later" type.

IMO too many people think that their scores are a reflection of who they are and when the scores are high and the ego gets damaged poor behaviour sometimes occurs.

When I hit a poor shot, my immediate reaction before the ball hits the ground is "Why?" and secondly, "What do I need to do to prevent this from happening again?" No time for beating myself up. The club throwing, the whine, the I don't care and the see ya later, are no longer part of my vocabulary.

My goal for the next hole, after a bad one or a good one, is to make a birdie. If I am 3 under, make it 4 under; if 5 over, make it 4 over. Again no time for beating myself up. Understanding that the game can be very cruel, and that sometimes good shots get punished, believing in your ability to make birdie on the next hole, and stalking and then attacking the hole like a predator, can turn a poor round into a better one and a good round into a great one. You absolutely cannot do this if you are angry so reacting to a poor shot in a non-plussed manner will not only help you, but will also not interfere with your playing partners right to play a shot uninhibited. It's simple to do as any reaction you have is merely a choice.

[mberube]

And this comming from a guy who tends to, how shall I put this, yak alot between shots. So when this happens and I do get quiet, I know it also affects my playing partners and some of their enjoyment. Others I play with have other side affects of playing poorly. The "throw your club as far as I can, as long as it dont end up in a tree" type, the "I dont care anymore" type, the "whine whine whine and whine again" type and even the "I'll see you guys later" type.

I am the "whine whine whine and whine again" type. I try very hard to get out of this trend but it's very very difficult. I can stay focussed for a while and then suddenly out of nowhere the whining comes out without me noticing it. I don't know why but it always comes back.

I like BC Mist theory on focussing on attacking the next hole. I'll try that.

[Deep Woods]

Does it bother you THAT much that a "new" golfer talks during your swing? You can't just assume that everyone knows the proper etiquette on the course.

I know, that's why I say its one thing that should be handed out to new golfers at a course. That was my point.

Does it bother me that much? If they're TOTALLY green? No. If were out goofing around and drinking, like an office tourney? No. If they have some decent shots and obviously have played before? Yes. But put it in context, by "bother" I mean I mumble to myself, or to a friend, and try to avoid it next time. Other times, I'll hold off on my swing til they stop.

But is it an obvious thing that most people should catch on to? I think so.

How would you approach it? Would you turn to them and say "I know it seems picky, but if you could avoid talking while I'm swinging, I'd appreciate it." Or would you just let it go? How many times before you said something?

Heres an example. Calabogie. First hole. There's a sign that says "Please do not go past this sign if there's someone on the tee", and I think it also says "Please don't talk", but I can't remember. Anyway, a group of four, in carts pulls right up beside us, during our tee off, and GABS and GABS and GABS loudly. Come on.

[Deep Woods]

My goal for the next hole, after a bad one or a good one, is to make a birdie. If I am 3 under, make it 4 under; if 5 over, make it 4 over. Again no time for beating myself up. Understanding that the game can be very cruel, and that sometimes good shots get punished, believing in your ability to make birdie on the next hole, and stalking and then attacking the hole like a predator, can turn a poor round into a better one and a good round into a great one. You absolutely cannot do this if you are angry so reacting to a poor shot in a non-plussed manner will not only help you, but will also not interfere with your playing partners right to play a shot uninhibited. It's simple to do as any reaction you have is merely a choice.

This is absolutely TRUE if you understand the swing and fundamentals, which is another benefit of being a low handicap golfer. If you're not, and some days an oddity creeps in, it can be very frustrating to see the ball do something odd over and over...you pretty much right off the round, and turn it into something else, like "time to work on my short game" day.

[The Shtick]

How would you approach it? Would you turn to them and say "I know it seems picky, but if you could avoid talking while I'm swinging, I'd appreciate it." Or would you just let it go? How many times before you said something?

I am very blunt at times and I would probably say something right away. It's just a game, and a game to be enjoyed by ALL. Meaning, "you play your type of game and let me play mine".

You, at least, have to let them know this. Otherwise, nobody ends up having any fun.

[Frewcrew]

This was a members qualifying tournament; therefore your Club Captain & his committee is the "Committee" for this event.
The guilty party is a member & must be well known to the committee. The committee would be justified in disqualifying the individual for his actions. The committee would also be justified in disallowing his entry into future events.
The flagrant disregard for his fellow competitors & the spirit of the game by this person is enough to prevent other members from entering club events. I feel, your committee has some work to do, maybe it's time they stepped-up & did their thankless job.

[Deep Woods]

I am very blunt at times and I would probably say something right away. It's just a game, and a game to be enjoyed by ALL. Meaning, "you play your type of game and let me play mine".

Why I don't know what your point is then...your reaction is the same as mine.