Rule 33 - 7 Disqualification Penalty

[BC MIST]

33-7. Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion
A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.
Any penalty less than disqualification must not be waived or modified.
If a Committee considers that a player is guilty of a serious breach of etiquette, it may impose a penalty of disqualification under this Rule.

"Hypothetical" Situation:

Let's say that I am playing in our club's Intersectional Team qualifying rounds and am paired with a player who:
(1) constantly swears, mainly the "f" word, after every missed shot, and continues to so so even after being asked not to by a fellow competitor,
(2) constantly talks while fellow competitor's are playing shots and continues even after being asked not to,
(3) constantly stands where the fellow competitors can see him while they are playing a shot and continues even after being asked not to, and,
(4) averages 90 seconds to play a short shot, pitches, chips and putts, and continues to do so even after being told that the group is "out of position".

As this is a club tournament, there is no independent "committee" overseeing the event. In fact, the organizing committee consists of a fellow competitor who is in one of the groups ahead, and myself.

(a) would the player be guilty of "a serious breach of golf etiquette"?
(b) if yes, how can the disqualification penalty be fairly applied if the "committee" consists of fellow competitors, who my have something to gain by the player being disqualified?
(c) or, is this simply a situation where one has to put up with this boor whose intent by continuing to breach basic golf etiquette after being asked not to, is to upset his fellow competitors' games, which would make it advantageous to himself?

To those who are members of a golf club and who have come across players like the one described above, what has been done to force the player to change?

If someone behaves this way during everyday games, the solutuion is to not play with them anymore, but this does not force them to mend their ways. However, in competitions, this is not possible.

[dbleber]

33-7. Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion
A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.
Any penalty less than disqualification must not be waived or modified.
If a Committee considers that a player is guilty of a serious breach of etiquette, it may impose a penalty of disqualification under this Rule.

"Hypothetical" Situation:

Let's say that I am playing in our club's Intersectional Team qualifying rounds and am paired with a player who:
(1) constantly swears, mainly the "f" word, after every missed shot, and continues to so so even after being asked not to by a fellow competitor,
(2) constantly talks while fellow competitor's are playing shots and continues even after being asked not to,
(3) constantly stands where the fellow competitors can see him while they are playing a shot and continues even after being asked not to, and,
(4) averages 90 seconds to play a short shot, pitches, chips and putts, and continues to do so even after being told that the group is "out of position".

As this is a club tournament, there is no independent "committee" overseeing the event. In fact, the organizing committee consists of a fellow competitor who is in one of the groups ahead, and myself.

(a) would the player be guilty of "a serious breach of golf etiquette"?
(b) if yes, how can the disqualification penalty be fairly applied if the "committee" consists of fellow competitors, who my have something to gain by the player being disqualified?
(c) or, is this simply a situation where one has to put up with this boor whose intent by continuing to breach basic golf etiquette after being asked not to, is to upset his fellow competitors' games, which would make it advantageous to himself?

To those who are members of a golf club and who have come across players like the one described above, what has been done to force the player to change?

If someone behaves this way during everyday games, the solutuion is to not play with them anymore, but this does not force them to mend their ways. However, in competitions, this is not possible.

dbleber:
I don't think that there is a rule or a law about being an a**hole. Maybe this guy thinks it's just as rude or annoying to play with someone who won't shut up about how great they are or their past rounds of greatness. Or the superstar who never cracks a smile while playing and takes every local tourny to heart as if it was the Masters. All you can do in either situation is to ask them to stop or just suck it up and play your own game. To be disqualified is a little bit stupid to me. I don't see Tiger being disqualified when he is cursing, throwing clubs and throwing golf balls or Sergio for waggling forever.
Denny

[BC MIST]

dbleber:
...To be disqualified is a little bit stupid to me. I don't see Tiger being disqualified when he is cursing, throwing clubs and throwing golf balls or Sergio for waggling forever. Denny

And yet if Tiger was DQ'd once for this behaviour, which is very common of him, considering what a role model that he is, it would stop immediately.

If there was a time limit imposed on how long it should take to play a shot, and Sergio was penalized for "slow play," how long would it take him to learn to play faster?

I say, nail them, regardless of who they are, and both the pace of play and the decorum they show, would improve, and more golfers would aspire to be like them. We would all benefit.

[Colby]

And yet if Tiger was DQ'd once for this behaviour, which is very common of him, considering what a role model that he is, it would stop immediately.

If there was a time limit imposed on how long it should take to play a shot, and Sergio was penalized for "slow play," how long would it take him to learn to play faster?

I say, nail them, regardless of who they are, and both the pace of play and the decorum they show, would improve, and more golfers would aspire to be like them. We would all benefit.

Author, author!

[el tigre]

And yet if Tiger was DQ'd once for this behaviour, which is very common of him, considering what a role model that he is, it would stop immediately.

If there was a time limit imposed on how long it should take to play a shot, and Sergio was penalized for "slow play," how long would it take him to learn to play faster?

Why should you care how Tiger Woods acts after a bad shot, or how long Sergio's pre-shot routine takes? One of the great things about golf is the your performance on the course is TOTALLY within your own control. If the behavior of other players on the course affect your game, it is only because YOU have let that happen.

The "DQ for bad etiquette" rule is reserved for people who shout at you in the middle of your swing. Like the basketball fans who wave stuff when a player from the visiting team is at the free throw line. You can't be disqualified for being a jerk, and although I can certainly sympathise with you for having to play with such a person, there's not much you can do about it.

The "PGA rule" for slow play is basically that can't have an entire hole open in front of you. Sergio has never been THAT slow. While his regripping routine did not make for riveting television, if it helped him play better then why should I care? If I'm a fellow competitor, then I will eventually get my turn to show what kind of shot I can make.

BTW, I don't feel that 90 seconds is a long time to play ANY shot. All shots count the same, whether they are 300 yard drives or 3 foot putts. PGA pros usually take MUCH longer than 90 seconds when sizing up short pitches, chips and putts.

[Deep Woods]

Why should you care how Tiger Woods acts after a bad shot, or how long Sergio's pre-shot routine takes? One of the great things about golf is the your performance on the course is TOTALLY within your own control. If the behavior of other players on the course affect your game, it is only because YOU have let that happen.

I totally disagree with this, not that it matters. The idea that things bother YOU and YOU have the problem is ridiculous. I think ANY PLAYER who behaves poorly IN COMPETITION should be reprimanded, and I'm sorry, but swearing and throwing your club is childish for anyone over 16...

The idea that people can behave any way they wish, in public or otherwise, is absurd and annoying. My # pet peeve is seeing some A- scream up the offramp lane or soft shoulder to cut into the traffic jam...its pure arrogance.

[Kilroy]

BTW, I don't feel that 90 seconds is a long time to play ANY shot. All shots count the same, whether they are 300 yard drives or 3 foot putts. PGA pros usually take MUCH longer than 90 seconds when sizing up short pitches, chips and putts.

90 seconds is WAY too slow.
80 strokes x 90 seconds = 120 minutes standing over the ball for a lot of players. If 4 guys do this it's an 8 hour round without moving from shot to shot.

I think the PGA hs a 40 second rule. I also recall that Sergio was repetedly warned about his lengthy routine, so he abamdoned the re-gripping crud.

30 seconds is more than enough. I for one find it annoying to stand and watch someone take two practice swings away from the ball, choose a line, set up parallell, 3 -5 more practice swings, check the face angle at the 9:00 position, step up to the ball, 3 deep breaths, hitch the pants, another half backswing... oops an insect... start over.

[NoBack]

Totally agree with you here Dan, Deep Woods, Colby and BC MIST.

Sorry el tigre but 90 seconds?????? That's WAY too long at your ball. And I've been watching golf on TV for over 20 years. I have never seen a pro take 90 seconds ( a full minute and half????) to hit a ball. :jitter

If you think this is good practice and you think it's ok to take 6 hrs to play a round, then I think you lost the meaning of fun and relaxation. If we all did that yesterday for our Ryder Cup event at the Meadows when we played 36 holes, we would still be playing this morning.

As for Tiger and his attitude, throwing clubs, swearing on camera, yelling at the guy in back row of the gallery, the no autographs, the arrogant walk bys..................I for one can do without.

30 seconds is more than enough.

Dan............ for you? You are talking about 5 shots in that 30 seconds right??
I've never seen you take more than 6 seconds at your ball.

[faldo]

Most of you who golfed with me or "noticed" my red shorts on the course may have noticed that I'm at the other end of the spectrum as I never take a practice-swing of any kind. My pre-shot routine is done in my head.
Years of lower-back pain (a long time ago) got to the point where I couldn't finish a round. It was easy to decide on which of those 100 swings I was going to keep

It works for me.

As to throwing clubs, my wife has a rule which she's happy to enforce. That club stays (untouched) for the next month :mad
Maybe Steve Williams could suggest that to TIGER????
:shake

[Kilroy]

Dan............ for you? You are talking about 5 shots in that 30 seconds right??

I was being generous. If someone is used to taking 90 seconds then cutting back to 30 may be tough.

And I am sure I take a full 8 seconds.

[dbleber]

90 seconds is WAY too slow.
80 strokes x 90 seconds = 120 minutes standing over the ball for a lot of players. If 4 guys do this it's an 8 hour round without moving from shot to shot.

I think the PGA hs a 40 second rule. I also recall that Sergio was repetedly warned about his lengthy routine, so he abamdoned the re-gripping crud.

30 seconds is more than enough. I for one find it annoying to stand and watch someone take two practice swings away from the ball, choose a line, set up parallell, 3 -5 more practice swings, check the face angle at the 9:00 position, step up to the ball, 3 deep breaths, hitch the pants, another half backswing... oops an insect... start over.

dbleber:
I have a slow pre-shot routine and I do it before each shot. I need it to get relaxed and get in the zone. Who are you to determine how long a pre-shot routine takes? I hate playing with guys who walk to their ball and smack it right away and then look at you as if they are better then you because you do not follow. I also find these type of players are the ones who take themselves to seriously and on a busy Saturday are huffing and puffing because they can't have the course to themselves. Everytime a ball as landed by my feet it is usually this type of player on the tee box who doesn't yell fore, doesn't say a word to you and expects you to let them through when the course is jammed. I'll play my game, you play your game. Thats what's so great about golf everbodies swings, routines and course management skills are different.
Denny

[Kilroy]

I am not sugesting that a preshot routine is unnessesary. Even my "quick play" includes a preshot routine. I do not expect anyone else to pull the trigger in 10 seconds. If that is your comfort area, great. If your routine takes up to 30 seconds, fine. Any longer than that and it is annoying. 90 seconds is absurd. If you ever played golf with someone who takes that long over every shot, you'd go bannanas.

I am not a player who hits into other groups... etc. All of the atributes you apply to "these type of players " apply to impatient players, not to players who take less than 90 seconds over the ball.

I'll bet if you tried to take 90 seconds over every shot in a game you couldn't. You'd bore yourself to death and destroy any chance of making a good swing with all the overthinking, and you'd find it hard to get people to play with you more than once.

[BC MIST]

[QUOTE=el tigre]Why should you care how Tiger Woods acts after a bad shot, or how long Sergio's pre-shot routine takes? ... If the behavior of other players on the course affect your game, it is only because YOU have let that happen.
Golf is still a gentleman's game and Tiger's outbursts on camera are not acceptable. They are golf's equivalent to hockey's high sticking, slashing, etc., and should be penalised. As a golfer up to whom millions look and try to emulate, the last thing the game needs are thousands more hotheads cursing, swearing and banging clubs. Behavioural standards in golf have already sunk to incredibly low levels and to POSSIBLY having the world's best golfer(not in my books) influencing the further erosion of etiquette, is really sad. One of the things I admire about the Tour pros is how well 99% handle poor shots. With the exception of Tiger, Steve Pate, Mark Calcavechia, and perhaps a handful of others, the rest behave extremely maturely.

The "DQ for bad etiquette" rule is reserved for people who shout at you in the middle of your swing. Like the basketball fans who wave stuff when a player from the visiting team is at the free throw line. You can't be disqualified for being a jerk, Maybe yes, maybe not. I await Gary Hill's interpretation of Rule 33-7.

BTW, I don't feel that 90 seconds is a long time to play ANY shot. All shots count the same, whether they are 300 yard drives or 3 foot putts. PGA pros usually take MUCH longer than 90 seconds when sizing up short pitches, chips and putts You have to be joking, right? 90+ seconds to play a shot is insane. What the heck can you do for 90 seconds before a tee shot that is going to help you hit it better? I feel that I am a slow player and it takes me 20 seconds to line up and play a shot. I guess then that if I took 90 seconds to play a shot I would be a much better player. Maybe this is something that I will work on this week.

[dbleber]

I am not sugesting that a preshot routine is unnessesary. Even my "quick play" includes a preshot routine. I do not expect anyone else to pull the trigger in 10 seconds. If that is your comfort area, great. If your routine takes up to 30 seconds, fine. Any longer than that and it is annoying. 90 seconds is absurd. If you ever played golf with someone who takes that long over every shot, you'd go bannanas.

I am not a player who hits into other groups... etc. All of the atributes you apply to "these type of players " apply to impatient players, not to players who take less than 90 seconds over the ball.

I'll bet if you tried to take 90 seconds over every shot in a game you couldn't. You'd bore yourself to death and destroy any chance of making a good swing with all the overthinking, and you'd find it hard to get people to play with you more than once.

dbleber:
I agree that 90 seconds is really long and I did it in my living room to see just how long it is over the ball. My routine which I have been told is long, just took me 21 seconds. 90 secs wow! I have never played with anyone who takes that long!
Denny

[Kilroy]

[el tigre]

Perhaps I was not clear enough about what I mean when I say "90 seconds to play a shot". I'm also counting the time it takes to examine your lie (or line of putt), select your club, choose your alignment point in front of the ball, take your practice swing(s), get into your setup position, address the ball, do your pre-shot routine and then hit the ball. All of this can easily take 90 seconds, but you rarely see it on television because they constantly cut from one player to the next. And of course if you play "ready golf", you can do half of this stuff while other players are getting ready for their shot.

And no, I don't approve of Tiger's behaviour but that wasn't the original question. The question was should players be disqualified for "improper etiquette" - specifically cursing and swearing, talking to other players at the wrong time, and standing in the wrong place. I think the answer is no. Disqualification is the most serious penalty that can be handed out, and it should be reserved for serious breaches of the rules.

I've played with ALL kinds of different people - some fast, some slow, some quiet, some "animated". I let them play their own game their own way. If I don't like it, I just tune them out and pretend I'm playing solo. Regardless of what anyone else does on the course, I know that it is totally up to me how well I play.

[BC MIST]

And no, I don't approve of Tiger's behaviour but that wasn't the original question. The question was should players be disqualified for "improper etiquette" - specifically cursing and swearing, talking to other players at the wrong time, and standing in the wrong place. I think the answer is no. Disqualification is the most serious penalty that can be handed out, and it should be reserved for serious breaches of the rules.

There are rules that govern "ALL" possible situations and the consequences are usually penalty strokes and occasionally disqualification, like signing an incorrect scorecard.

What we should be concerned about are serious breaches of golf etiquette, not the rules. "...specifically cursing and swearing, talking to other players at the wrong time, and standing in the wrong place." If a player exibits the above behaviour persistently and deliberately, as I described in my original post, you believe that the player should not be DQ'd and the rest of us should just grin and bear it. For what kind of serious breaches of golf etiquette do you feel a player should be DQ'd if any? For example, in the Earl Grey tournament at Petawawa years ago, one of my fellow competitors deliberately threw his bag on the ground as a third player was nearing the top of his backswing. Is this serious enough or must he threaten to part a fellow player's hair with a wedge to warrant being DQ'd?

The problem with some golfers these days is exactly this: I'm also counting the time it takes to examine your lie (or line of putt), select your club, choose your alignment point in front of the ball, take your practice swing(s), get into your setup position, address the ball, do your pre-shot routine and then hit the ball.
Most of this can be done while waiting for another to play. If you are first then it may take a little longer, but not much. 90 seconds is ridiculous. If you knew that this snail's pace of play negatively affected the play of those that you are with or even if it took away some of their enjoyment, would you play faster? If you play in OVGA or Ottawa Golf Tour events, has you been taken to task about your slow play, or are others too polite or too afraid to say anything?

For what its worth, in last year's Alexander of Tunis tournament at Rivermead, a QGA official drove up to our group and informed one of my fellow competitors that it took him 60 seconds to play his tee shot on the par three second hole and that was his first warning. Well, if 60 seconds is too long, what is 90 seconds?

Played with two snail's yesterday in a qualifying tournament and while I have enough experience to not let the time wasting affect my game, it was not fun. As a group we were out of position after 2 holes and never caught up and I'll bet they averaged less than 90 seconds per shot. I can't imagine playing with 2 or 3, 90 seconds per shot player. I would be a year older before we got done.

Golf etiquette is about consideration for others and slow play at any time, is just selfish.

[NoBack]

Must agree with everything there 100%. I dont mind anything most people do but when you know you are slow and behind the group in front of you, you must pick up the pace.

I agree partially with eltigre about the 90 seconds to fully think of your shot and troutine and all this stuff.
But I do more than half of this as im still walking up to my ball. Walking from behind the ball and about 20 yrds aways, you have plenty of time to think about stance, slope, anything between you and the green etc. This shouldnt be just a thought as you get to the ball. Now that all that is done, aim practice swing, aim again and hit ball.

Now pick up bag and walk ..................so simple.

[LBH]

90 seconds is way too long!!!

Think about it: Let's say a foursome where each player shoots 80. That's 4 * 80 * 90 which is 28800 seconds which is 8 hours!!! That doesn't even count walking or riding the course...

20 seconds is starting to be long... Usually, I take 10-15 seconds

[guyinottawa]

I think that nobody is taking 90 seconds on every single shot. I don't think for the tricky one-offs that it is not unreasonable to take 90 seconds. If you were doing it on every shot, then it would be difficult!

The game is all about focus. Worry about your own game. If you golf with somebody who is too slow, don't invite them again.

Of course, if you arrange a 2 or 3some, you may be paired up with another 2some or single that plays real slow. That would be a drag!

[Deep Woods]

ve played with ALL kinds of different people - some fast, some slow, some quiet, some "animated".

Yes, and I wanted to distinguish between playing with people for fun and playing in competition. Playing in competition should require a higher standard of play, both in terms of golf-actions and etiquette-actions. What you do with your friends, and who/what you tolerate in a recreational game has no bounds, so long as it doesn't affect those behind or ahead of you, or damage the course (IMO). Who you choose to golf with is personal choice, and if you like watching friends curse/throw clubs, no problem.

Should Tiger do it. No way.

[mberube]

Slow players must be worn and then penalised and eventually QD’ed.

I believe that DQ is a bit too severe if and only if the player is not taunting his fellow competitors on purpose for his own advantage. I am not talking about slow play. I am talking about noisy and out of place players. I was also in the intersectional qualifying rounds this weekend and you do not chose who you play with but it is your responsibility to tune out those types of players. Personally, I can play my shot while someone is cutting a tree with a chainsaw behind me. If it bothers you, you must tell the other player or deal with it mentally. Should they be QD’ed? Only if they have been told more then once and there is someone with the authority to call it.

My 2 cents.

[mberube]

90 seconds is way too long!!!

Think about it: Let's say a foursome where each player shoots 80. That's 4 * 80 * 90 which is 28800 seconds which is 8 hours!!! That doesn't even count walking or riding the course...

20 seconds is starting to be long... Usually, I take 10-15 seconds

You can’t calculate it like that. Like Steve said, we do half of are pre-shot thinking before getting there or while other players hit there ball.

I am not sure about how long I or another player take but I will find out. On my next game I will time my partners to see how long the will take and post the results. I think most of you will be surprised.

I suggest you try it too. It would be interesting
.

[Deep Woods]

I suggest you try it too. It would be interesting.

Other than finesse shots (anything less than full swing) and putting, my time over the ball is 15 seconds. I do not mind if others take longer or not, Ill play with anyone who is efficient and nice (whether its 120 strokes in the round or 72).

[jonf]

Golf is still a gentleman's game and Tiger's outbursts on camera are not acceptable. They are golf's equivalent to hockey's high sticking, slashing, etc., and should be penalised. As a golfer up to whom millions look and try to emulate, the last thing the game needs are thousands more hotheads cursing, swearing and banging clubs. Behavioural standards in golf have already sunk to incredibly low levels and to POSSIBLY having the world's best golfer(not in my books) influencing the further erosion of etiquette, is really sad. One of the things I admire about the Tour pros is how well 99% handle poor shots. With the exception of Tiger, Steve Pate, Mark Calcavechia, and perhaps a handful of others, the rest behave extremely maturely.

Golf may be a gentleman's game, but its also a game for human beings. Human beings make mistakes, and human beings get angry. I think that if anything, Tiger should be congratulated for showing his anger rather than bottling it up unnaturally in order to conform to the perhaps outdated conventions of what was once an old man's game. Golf is no longer that game. It is a game enjoyed by millions, and has Mr. Woods to thank for it. He is the primary reason that most people watch golf, and has got many youths started in the sport, including myself. It is completely inappropriate to criticise the man responsible for the golf tournaments you watch every weekend on cable tv, and for the golf clubs you use. Research and development in golf equipment comes as a result of the fact that golf has become so popular that companies can afford to spend tremendous amounts of money in this area, and still come out with massive profits. Without Tiger, numbers of golfers would be cut drastically, and revenue for Callaway, Taylor Made, Titleist would drop in turn, and with it golf club quality. You may not like it, but golf needs Tiger Woods more than Tiger Woods needs golf.

[Deep Woods]

You may not like it, but golf needs Tiger Woods more than Tiger Woods needs golf.

Which is totally your opinion. Today, the marketing/research strategies of MOST companies are far more advanced, with greater media savy, realization that profits can be made from just about anything, and greater audiences. If Jack Nicklaus was golfing today, he'd have the same response. Hell, even mini-putts were doing big-cash prizes (before Tiger) that never occurred before...even things like bass fishing.

I don't mind Tiger getting mad at himself...that's probably his natural drive and he needs it. I do mind the greatest golfer in the world throwing temper tantrums at other people. I know its stressful, and only Tiger knows how tough it is to be Tiger, but thats part of the price tag of success and fame. There are great players today (ex: Ernie Els) who conduct themselves marvelously.

That said, Tiger can behave any way he wishes, it doesnt mean im going to condone it. Thats also just my opinion.

[LBH]

You can’t calculate it like that. Like Steve said, we do half of are pre-shot thinking before getting there or while other players hit there ball.

I am not sure about how long I or another player take but I will find out. On my next game I will time my partners to see how long the will take and post the results. I think most of you will be surprised.

I suggest you try it too. It would be interesting
.

I know this is not the right way to calculate it. It was just a way to prove that 90 seconds per shot is way too long. From the time it is your turn to play until you strike the ball, ask a partner to time you and most people will probably be between 15-20 seconds.

[Deep Woods]

Golf may be a gentleman's game, but its also a game for human beings.

Oh and just to complement this comment, I had the great and pleasant experience of golfing with an 18 year old (who was about a 5-10 handicap) and a 15 year old, who was probably about a 15-20, who both invited me to join them. They were incredibly pleasant, chatty (when appropriate), considerate, and thanked me for a pleasant round after (even tho i shot like dirt). They were happy-go-lucky in their game, had drives to envy, never once thought of throwing a club, and never once swore (although I think I might have muttered a few).

It was nice to see.

[faldo]

Had at 10 footer for birdie at Cloverdale yesterday & at the start of my forward stroke, across the green came very loudly "Would any of you like anything to drink".......
I tried really hard to get her DQ'ed from the course for the day, but my 4-some utvoted me.

No replay either.......Friends, who needs them!!

[EDSGOLF]

Maybe Tiger (or any other player that curses) needs to be fined (or at least warned by a PGATOUR official) every time he swears, it won't hurt his pockets, but at least charities would benefit