Cart Path

[Kilroy]

In taking a drop from a cart path, it is my understanding that you must take "full relief". In other words, you cannot still stand on the cartpath after taking relief.

The in the Imovable obstructions section rulebook states "
(i) Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player must lift the ball and drop it without penalty within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids interference by the immovable obstruction and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green."

The argument could be made that this says nothing about the stance. My take on it is that the stance is understood to be covered by "interference by the immovable obstruction"

A player dropped and his feet were still on the path. In this case full relief was available, but would have meant an inhibited back swing

c. When to Re-Drop
A dropped ball must be re-dropped without penalty if it:
(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a),


A player has played from a wrong place if he makes a stroke with his ball in play:
(ii) when the Rules require a dropped ball to be redropped or a moved ball to be replaced.

b. Match Play
If a player makes a stroke from a wrong place, he loses the hole.

c. Stroke Play
If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule.

My assesment would be 2 strokes for making a stroke from a wrong place

Question:
Is complete relief really required in this situation?
Under what circumstances is "Maximum available relief" OK? (ie: really wet fairways with no real relief)

Thanks

[Gary Hill]

In taking a drop from a cart path, it is my understanding that you must take "full relief".

The Rule-2b says:

Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may TAKE RELIEF from interference by an immovable obstruction...

The Rule does not say anything about the taking of: sorta relief, partial relief, relief for only my ball, etc.

If you choose to take relief, you must comply with ALL the conditions of the Rule.

The argument could be made that this says nothing about the stance.

Rule 24-2a. (Interference) specifically states: when the obstruction INTERFERES with the player’s stance...

Remember: You are not taking relief from the cart path, you are taking relief from INTERFERENCE by the cart path.

A player dropped and his feet were still on the path. In this case full relief was available, but would have meant an inhibited back swing.

When taking relief under Rule 24-2, Rule 20-2c(v) guarantees that the player will get relief from the cart path. However, it does NOT guarantee that the player will not have interference by somthing other that the original car path.

My assesment would be 2 strokes for making a stroke from a wrong place

The player would incur a 2 stroke penalty for breach of Rule 24 (Obstructions).

Is complete relief really required in this situation?
place

Yes

Under what circumstances is "Maximum available relief" OK? (ie: really wet fairways with no real relief)
place

Rule 24-2b(i) Through the Green: DOES NOT allow Maximum available relief.

If you properly take relief from an immovable obstruction which results in your ball lying in casual water, you may THEN invoke the casual water rule (Rule 25) and take appropriate relief.


You may be thinking of Rule 25-1b(ii)(a) In a Bunker:

If a bunker is completely covered in casual water, it is impossible to find relief from interference by casual water in the bunker.

Maximum available relief provides that the player take relief from interference by the casual water by dropping the ball in the casual water, but at the point of maximum available relief (ie. in a shallow spot).

[Kilroy]

Thanks, looks like I had it right!

Now the only thing I am not 100% clear on is the casual water. I understand the bunker issue, but what about a fairway?

If I find my ball in a puddle (not in a hazzard) and the entire area of ground is wet enough that I get a bit of water gathering around my shoes.

I cannot take full relief, so what options do I have? Must I play from the puddle, or leave the course because it is unplayable?

[Gary Hill]

Why can't you take full relief?

Could you describe a scenario in which your ball would be in casual water but you could not find a point to drop that was:

1. On the golf course
2. Not nearer the hole

I can't think of one.

If the "entire area of ground" which you describe is, in fact, the whole golf course, then, yes, your only option is to go home.

[Kilroy]

I kinda thought you'd say that. That's why I included that option.

Thanks Gary

[Gary Hill]

The course/competition would be closed long before every single square centimeter of the course was unplayable.

[broken27]

Okay, the initial "cart-path" scenario is one that happens to me more often than I believe would qualify as "unlucky". I seem to land on or near cart paths all the time, to the point where I'm sure if the hole was on the cart path, I'd ace a lot of holes.

So, if I understand correctly, you have a choice in the first place about taking relief from this situation (ball or feet on path), but you must take complete relief (ball AND feet no longer on cart path).

Now, in taking said relief, if I take the ball back from the hole to the nearest point of relief, and in dropping I end up not being able to be completely free from the cart path (ball or one foot still touch it for example), I must re-drop or face a penalty?

I just can't follow the complex legal-ese answer with the various colours.

Thanks,
Dan

[Kilroy]

Looks like you followed along just fine.

You cannot take relief unless it is complete relief. Always look at where you would be dropping before you decide to pick it up.

In some cases your nearest available complete relief is worse than where you are.

[Gary Hill]

broken27 - Here is the colorless version

1. Your ball is lying on a cart path.
2. You may take relief or not take relief.
3. You declare that you are going to take relief and pick up your ball.
4. After dropping the ball, there is still interference by the same cart path.
5. You have declared that you are taking relief, but, in fact, you have NOT yet taken relief.
6. At this point you have 3 options.

a. Replace the ball where it originally lay on the cart path.
This will result in a penalty of one stroke because you have not lifted your ball under a Rule (even though you intended to use Rule 24-2, you have not used that Rule).

b. Hit the ball and incur a penalty of two strokes for not complying with the conditions set forth in Rule 24-2 (you have NOT taken relief from the cart path, therefore, you have breached the Rule).

c. Invoke Rule 20-2c(v) which allows you to re-drop without penalty in a case in which your ball rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (ie. the same cart path).

You are correct.
Your only penalty free option is to re-drop.

[broken27]

You are correct.
Your only penalty free option is to re-drop.

Okay, now supposing I re-drop and because of the slope of the ground around the cart path in question keeps pushing the ball back to the original spot, when do I get to "place" the ball? I have seen in situations where there's no way you're going to be able to take a drop without the ball rolling off a side-hill so it's either back on the path, or closer to the hole. I assume once you've tried dropping twice, you just place the ball in the area designated as "complete" relief under the rules you mention above?

I honestly wouldn't flog this dead horse if it didn't happen to me so often!!!

Thanks for your info/patience!
Dan

[Kilroy]

Close... Drop twice and then place it where the second drop first hit the ground. If you are "completely relieved", you are good to go. If you are not in an area of complete relief at that point, then it you must have incorrectly picked your nearest point of complete relief, and would be playing form a wrong place. I think.

[Gary Hill]

The Rules are not very complicated if you apply only the applicable rule to your situation and THEN determine if an addition Rule is needed.

Example: My ball is on a cart path. What does the Immovable Obstruction Rule (Rule 24) say?

It says I get a penalty free drop.

Dont worry about casual water, re-drop scenarios, or unplayable lies.

Find your nearest point of relief and drop the ball.

You are now done with Rule 24-2.

In the unlikely case that your dropped ball rolls into casual water (Rule 25), closer to the hole (Rule 20-2c), or into an unplayable lie (Rule 28), you may then invoke that Rule and proceed under its conditions.

If you use this step-by-step approach, the Rules covering every possible scenario can easily be applied one at a time.

Speciifically to your question:

1. You drop the ball ONCE.

Rule 20-2c covers seven situations in which a dropped ball rolls to a position where it MUST be re-dropped.

If the dropped ball has rolled and come to rest in one of these condiitions, you MUST re-drop the ball.

If the ball, when re-dropped still does not satisfy all seven conditions covered by Rule 20-2c, it MUST be placed on the spot where it first struck a part of the course when re-dropped.

This spot (where the ball first struck a part of the course when re-dropped) DOES satisfy the conditions of relief from the cart path.

This spot axiomatically satisfies the conditions of Rule 24-2 because Rule 20-2b stipulates that a ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course where the applicable Rule requires it to be dropped (in this case, Rule 24-2).

If the ball has not been dropped in accordance with Rule 20-2b, then Rule 20-6 allows you to lift the ball without penalty and proceed correctly.

[broken27]

Okay, that step-by-step account has really helped put it in perspective. Thanks Gary.

Dan

[Gary Hill]

no problem; that's why I get the big money        

[NoBack]

Big Money?????

Gary
Should I be talking to Dan about the Events forum?

[Gary Hill]

Steve -

I think Dan should DOUBLE both our salaries.

[faldo]

[B]You may be thinking of Rule 25-1b(ii)(a) In a Bunker:

If a bunker is completely covered in casual water, it is impossible to find relief from interference by casual water in the bunker.

Maximum available relief provides that the player take relief from interference by the casual water by dropping the ball in the casual water, but at the point of maximum available relief (ie. in a shallow spot).[/QUOTE][/B]
Having to drop back into a bunker filled with water just amazes me.

Should the course not declare this kind of area as some-kind-of ground-under-repair?

Can we use a club (or foot) to dredge a hole in the side of the 'Pond" & let it drain down to a useable level?

[Kilroy]

I doubt that would be allowed.

Other options in a water filled bunker;

1. Take it out of the bunker and drop within 2 club lengths of the NPR from the bunker, no closer to the hole, under penalty of 1 stroke.
   (If that point is in casual water too, then you'd take free relief after your drop under the abnormal ground condition rule.)
2. Declare it unplayable, then options are
   1. drop within 2 clublengths of where you are
   2. go back as far as you like on a line extended from the flag through the ball and beyond.
   3. return to where you last hit under penalty of stroke and distance

[BC MIST]

I doubt that would be allowed.

Other options in a water filled bunker;

1. Take it out of the bunker and drop within 2 club lengths of the NPR from the bunker, no closer to the hole, under penalty of 1 stroke.
   (If that point is in casual water too, then you'd take free relief after your drop under the abnormal ground condition rule.)
2. Declare it unplayable, then options are
   1. drop within 2 clublengths of where you are
   2. go back as far as you like on a line extended from the flag through the ball and beyond.
   3. return to where you last hit under penalty of stroke and distance

I stand to be corrected but I believe that if you declare the ball unplayable in a bunker, #2 from above does not apply. Two club lengths or stroke and distance only. If the ball was declared unplayable "through the green" then #2 could be an option.

"Take it out of the bunker" (not unless it's declared unplayable) "and drop within 2 club lengths of the NPR" (even if you could get relief this way, it would be 1 club length, instead of 2) "from the bunker, no closer to the hole, under penalty of 1 stroke."

[Gary Hill]

Anyone want to take a stab at documenting the other mistakes in Dan's relpy?

[Kilroy]

The rule of thumb I always remembered is; Free relief is one clublength. When a penalty is involved you get 2 clubs.

[Kilroy]

Anyone want to take a stab at documenting the other mistakes in Dan's relpy?

Oh no, he said mistakes. Guess I really blew it.

[Gary Hill]

Having to drop back into a bunker filled with water just amazes me.

Nowhere in my explanation does it say that you HAVE to drop in bunker filled with water. It was an example to explain "Maximum Available Relief". There are other options available.


re: Maximum Available Relief
Picture another scenario where there is a small pool of casual water in a bunker, but it is in the back (away from green) of the bunker.

The relief procedure stipulates that the point of relief must also be not nearer the hole. In this case, the player may not be able to find complete relief which is not nearer the hole but he may be able to find "Maximum Available Relief" which is not nearer the hole.

The player could use Rule 25-1b(ii)(a) and take a penalty free drop at this spot instead of other options which involve a penalty.

[Gary Hill]

The rule of thumb I always remembered is; Free relief is one clublength. When a penalty is involved you get 2 clubs.

True.

Unfortunately, that is not one of the mistakes.

[broken27]

Did some digging just for fun, and here is what I came up with:

25-1b (ii) - If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either:

(a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) below, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker, or if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course in the bunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or

(b) Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker, keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.

(i) Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player must lift the ball and drop it without penalty within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids interference by the condition and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.
---------------------
Seems like there's no stipulation of stroke and distance in this particular rule, or the "rehit" option. I'm probably wrong about that, but don't have the time to sort through every possible combination of circumstances in the rule book (even though it's kinda fun).

Dan

Dan

[Gary Hill]

broken27 -

You have pasted some nice text from the Rules, but haven't explained where Dan went wrong or what Rules are applicable in our scenario.

Don't give up now, you are halfway there.

[broken27]

I would argue that this:
Take it out of the bunker and drop within 2 club lengths of the NPR from the bunker, no closer to the hole, under penalty of 1 stroke.
(If that point is in casual water too, then you'd take free relief after your drop under the abnormal ground condition rule.)

Is not entirely true, given that 25-1b (ii)(b) states you drop: Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker, keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.

As well, it would seem that for the "penalty-free" drop, you actually have to drop inside the bunker, and take that "maximum AVAILABLE" relief. 25-1b (ii)(a): Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker, or if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course in the bunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition;

I am certainly no rules afficienado, so I might be barking up the wrong tree here, but those are the only two elements of Dan's response that seem a tad askew with what I found in the rules.

Dan

[Gary Hill]

EXCELLENT !!!!!!

[broken27]

EXCELLENT !!!!!!

Hooray for me!!! I got one right!!! (Unless that was sarcasm on your part Gary.... )

Dan

[Kilroy]

Gary does not do sarcasm. Just the biting truth.

I blew it, but only on the point where I said you could get 2 clublengths from the bunker or the original lie

I never said you could get free relief outside the bunker.

So I take it you can always replay the last shot with stroke and distance.