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Thread: Fast greens

  1. #1
    Bogie mikelaurin is on a distinguished road
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    Fast greens

    just got back from Brockville country club the greens had to be about 12 or 13 with the slopes would make anything in the area look slow,great deal if you are looking for a good test

  2. #2
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikelaurin View Post
    just got back from Brockville country club the greens had to be about 12 or 13 with the slopes would make anything in the area look slow,great deal if you are looking for a good test
    Were you playing in the seniors, too?

    Playing in the Canadian Seniors a few years ago at Brantford CC, the greens were running 12.5 to 13 according to the RCGA. Brockville's greens are not that fast. However, having used a Stimpmeter many times, my best guess is that their greens are 10 to 11, a good speed for both member and tournament type play. What makes their greens a challenge is the slopes that some of them have, where being above the hole makes it very difficult to stop the ball near the hole. #2 and #6 are good examples of this.

    Regardless, the greens are excellent, the course, very challenging and a treat to play.

  3. #3
    Sand Wedge golfdude is on a distinguished road
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    Fast greens in the Ottawa valley are very hard to find. The local courses just don't get it for some reason. The only time some of the courses come close to providing the public with fast greens is when they are hosting a serious tournament.
    Unfortunately a lot of courses have bad green designs that will not allow for fast greens, Emerald Links is a perfect example of this. Their greens are top heavily undulated to be played at anything close to fast.

  4. #4
    Bogie mikelaurin is on a distinguished road
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    Brockvilles green were about smugglers glen speed times two,they had a tournament on, if you didnt hit the hole bye bye

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    Sand Wedge golfdude is on a distinguished road
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    I rest my case, we have a course with fast greens because they just had a tournament. I find this practice rather insulting. Why do most golf courses only provide fast greens when a tournament is hosted? This sends the message that the general public or even worse, their members do not deserve good greens.

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    Singles Match Play Champ 2009 Team Match Play Champ 2013, 2014 leftylucas is on a distinguished road leftylucas's Avatar
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    Chateau Cartier greens are as fast as I have ever seen them. Pretty slick. Montebello were fast yesterday as well
    Lefty Lucas
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  7. #7
    Caddy SGH is on a distinguished road SGH's Avatar
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    Fast greens are a risk for most courses. They are a lot quicker to burn off, and much more expensive to maintain. This summer, with all the rain, you would need to be cutting and rolling the greens on daily basis to keep them as fast as what you're used to seeing in a big-time tournament. This isn't practical in most cases. Less practical when you consider the skill level and expectations of the average customer.

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    Singles Match Play Champ 2009 Team Match Play Champ 2013, 2014 leftylucas is on a distinguished road leftylucas's Avatar
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    Good point, both Montebello and Chateau Cartier are resorts and cannot afford to loose their greens so they invest in the maintenance.
    Lefty Lucas
    I am abidextrous, I once golfed right-handed and now I shoot left-handed just as badly!

  9. #9
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfdude View Post
    Fast greens in the Ottawa valley are very hard to find. The local courses just don't get it for some reason. The only time some of the courses come close to providing the public with fast greens is when they are hosting a serious tournament.
    The reality is that when the greens are fast the overwhelming majority of recreational golfers simply cannot handle them. This results in very long rounds and unhappy golfers.
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  10. #10
    Singles Match Play Champ 2009 Team Match Play Champ 2013, 2014 leftylucas is on a distinguished road leftylucas's Avatar
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    I would tend to agree with that. I played CC last week and was really enjoying the greens as they were faster than I had ever seen there and were still receptive to the landing the ball. On the 12th green I mentioned to my buddy that I was loving the rolls on the greens and he said he was not as he was struggling with them, in fact he said he would not return as he felt they were "unfair".
    Lefty Lucas
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  11. #11
    Gotta Post 3Jack is on a distinguished road 3Jack's Avatar
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    Greens running 12 or 13 on the stimp? That is nuts, even for a competitive amateur tournament. Augusta runs around 12 or 13, and Bethpage was going to run around 13 if it hadn't been for the rain. I have a hard time thinking that 12 or 13 on the stimp is fair, even if you are a scratch.
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    Singles Match Play Champ 2009 Team Match Play Champ 2013, 2014 leftylucas is on a distinguished road leftylucas's Avatar
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    Well I guess they can have them as fast as they want but it does not make for good golf if they are faster than PGA level. I played last summer at the Royal Ottawa immediately after the Québec junior championship tournament and the greens were definitely rolling much faster than their normal speed. It was not an enjoyable round and I like fast greens.
    Lefty Lucas
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  13. #13
    Sand Wedge golfdude is on a distinguished road
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    I've heard every excuse in the book as to why courses don't speed up their greens, non of which are valid. If the majority would keep them fast then golfers would learn how to putt properly. This slow green thing is an Ottawa valley problem. Travel outside the area and you'll find faster greens. I hate to say it but we have a lot of crappy golf courses in this area and the sad part is that most people don't realize it.

  14. #14
    Par Sparkplug is on a distinguished road Sparkplug's Avatar
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    Greens

    I tend to agree with Golfdude. I like fast true rolling greens. Could not tell you the stimps though.

    There are some in the area but was at Upper Canada on Friday and three putted the first green (had to run to make my tee time) then adjusted loved the rest of the day.

    The next day at my home course it felt like I had to hit a driver to get the ball to the hole.

    I'm sure the private clubs keep them at a pretty good pace as well as some of the premium courses. Marshes, Eagle Creek, Rivermead and Rideau View come to mind.

    The fastest I ever played was on a course that was being prepped for a Florida mini tour event and I was playing on the practice day. Double cut and blueing out by the time I was on them. Real wicked.

  15. #15
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfdude View Post
    I've heard every excuse in the book as to why courses don't speed up their greens, non of which are valid. If the majority would keep them fast then golfers would learn how to putt properly.
    No, they are all valid. It costs money to keep greens fast and alive.

    The first couple of years Stonebridge had the full 18 holes they kept their greens a lot faster than they are today. The *ing and moaning about "unfair" and "circus like" was incredible.

    The weather also has a lot to do with it. Moving even a little further south makes it easier on the greens.
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  16. #16
    Bouche
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    Anderson Links must be rolling aroun 10 right now

  17. #17
    4 Iron jens is on a distinguished road jens's Avatar
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    Greens

    Quote Originally Posted by Bouche View Post
    Anderson Links must be rolling aroun 10 right now
    I played there yesterday, for the first time, the greens were very fair. If you could read the putt, you trully had a chance to make it. I did not find that they were too fast. The foursome left a number of putts short worried about blowing them by.

    Found too many unfixed ball marks on the green. Are people really that lazy?

  18. #18
    Gotta Post 3Jack is on a distinguished road 3Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfdude View Post
    Travel outside the area and you'll find faster greens. I hate to say it but we have a lot of crappy golf courses in this area and the sad part is that most people don't realize it.
    This implies that Ottawa area golfers are insular and lack the awareness that golf occurs in places outside of the region, and that this golf occurs on what can be described as better, more well conditioned courses. To a certain extent, you have a point when it comes to public golf, because many of the courses in this region were built and designed not by professional design teams, but by family businesses whose were not golf course architects by trade.

    Travel to Toronto however, and you will find public facilities that rival most of the private courses in this area when it comes to amenities, level of maintenance, and "quality" of design.

    I think it needs to be pointed out though, that this is more a direct reflection of the economic viability of such public courses, rather than a reflection on the sophistication of the Ottawa valley golfer at large.
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  19. #19
    Eagle mmack067 is on a distinguished road mmack067's Avatar
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    The issue of fast greens is difficult especially for public courses. They see too many rounds per day to keep them in good shape. When you get that many footsteps on the greens it is too big of a risk to have them running at tournament speeds. The risk the greens baking if it's hot and losing the green. For the most part, it's not a viable option for a course that gets a lot of rounds/day. That's why you see courses speed up the greens for tournament play and then let the greens go back to their normal speed.

    With that being said I simply love fast greens, it's much easier to make putts on true and fast greens, you just have to be aware of where the slopes are and try not to put yourself in a poor position. I have had the luxury of playing some extremely fast greens in my life. The RCGA and NCAA can really test your skills when they want. I remember playing at Redtail near London for the Ontario Am and let me tell you, they were insane fast! That course (as overrated as it is) has fantastic greens. They are supposed to be as close as one can get to Augustas greens in terms of sloping and speed. Now that was a challenge! Apparently Nick Price goes there to practice on the greens for a while before the Masters because the greens are so similar. It's also the spot where he wrote his book.

  20. #20
    Sand Wedge golfdude is on a distinguished road
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    Why don't local courses post a sign stating what their greens are running that day? How many times have you asked the question when paying for your round "What are your greens runing at" and either you get a blank look or a response "Oh they're running about .... The bottom line they don't know and probably don't care. I would like to see a group of golf courses in this area step up to the plate and advertise the speeds. It shouldn't be a big surprise after you have paid and already played 2 holes.

  21. #21
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Why does it even matter what speed they are at? Most people don't even know what a stimpmeter is so the fact that somebody posts a sign that says "11.5" won't have any meaning.

    All that really matters is that their practice green is the same speed as the greens on the course and that the greens on the course are more or less consistent.

    Not to mention that over the course of the day the speed will change from green to green depending on whether a green is exposed or sheltered so even if they cut them all to run at 10 in the morning you can have differences by the end of the day.

    Different grass types can have an impact on that too. Loch March (poa I think) and Stonebridge (bent) react differently as the day goes on.
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  22. #22
    Caddy SGH is on a distinguished road SGH's Avatar
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    For starters, the speed of the greens change dramatically throughout the day. Whether it be moister, traffic, heat, etc. Would they post updated speeds in the afternoon vs. the morning? Every hour? How accurate could they really be?

    Also, unless the greens are all 100% the same type of grass, they are each going to run at different speeds. That would also make it difficult.

    If the course did go to that length, what percentage of golfers would benefit at the end of the day? 10%? 25% at the absolute most? What percentage of golfers would be familiar with the stimp scale?

  23. #23
    Gotta Post 3Jack is on a distinguished road 3Jack's Avatar
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    Unless I'm all of a sudden finding myself good enough to play the Tunis or some such, I couldn't give a monkey's bum what the greens are running at.
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  24. #24
    Caddy SGH is on a distinguished road SGH's Avatar
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    I guess I was a little slow on the draw. I completely agree.

    Consistency is everything. Providing I don't notice drastic changes from the putting green to the 18th green, what does it really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by jvincent View Post
    Why does it even matter what speed they are at? Most people don't even know what a stimpmeter is so the fact that somebody posts a sign that says "11.5" won't have any meaning.

    All that really matters is that their practice green is the same speed as the greens on the course and that the greens on the course are more or less consistent.

    Not to mention that over the course of the day the speed will change from green to green depending on whether a green is exposed or sheltered so even if they cut them all to run at 10 in the morning you can have differences by the end of the day.

    Different grass types can have an impact on that too. Loch March (poa I think) and Stonebridge (bent) react differently as the day goes on.

  25. #25
    Sand Wedge golfdude is on a distinguished road
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    The last posts are the reasons why we have a lot of crappy courses with slow greens. Too many golfers don't know or care. So why should the courses offer anything different.

  26. #26
    Bogie mikelaurin is on a distinguished road
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    I love it in the fall sramble season the greens are fast and in nasty spots, Our nine hole course in Morrisburg has faster greens then a lot of the public courses in ottawa,ask anyone from Falcon ridge that played in the intersectionals to bad it rained the day before

  27. #27
    Gotta Post 3Jack is on a distinguished road 3Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfdude View Post
    The last posts are the reasons why we have a lot of crappy courses with slow greens. Too many golfers don't know or care. So why should the courses offer anything different.
    I know what a stimpmeter is, but honestly, as I play on average 27 holes per week for recreation, I just don't see how it matters to me what the greens are running at. If the greens are quick, they're quick, if they're slow, they're slow. I have been playing for 30 years and I have never once asked what the greens were running at. Then again, I don't even care if they have been recently aerated, as I have always been of the attitude that you play the course as you find it.
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  28. #28
    Caddy SGH is on a distinguished road SGH's Avatar
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    Where have you lived/played that things have been so drastically better/different?

    Not being critical, just interested. Seems like you're shocked at the conditioning of the courses in this area and am wondering what your comparative is.

    Quote Originally Posted by golfdude View Post
    The last posts are the reasons why we have a lot of crappy courses with slow greens. Too many golfers don't know or care. So why should the courses offer anything different.

  29. #29
    Hall of Fame jonf is on a distinguished road jonf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfdude View Post
    The last posts are the reasons why we have a lot of crappy courses with slow greens. Too many golfers don't know or care. So why should the courses offer anything different.
    Have a bad round recently on some slow greens?

  30. #30
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfdude View Post
    The last posts are the reasons why we have a lot of crappy courses with slow greens. Too many golfers don't know or care. So why should the courses offer anything different.
    Do you honestly expect budget conscious courses in Ottawa to spend the kind of money that is required to get tour quality greens?

    I've played 3 US Open courses (Pinehurst, Bethpage, Torrey Pines) and several others that are in the top 25 in North America (Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails, Spyglass Hill, Pasatiempo) so I have seen my share of tour speed greens.

    Are all of those courses better than most of the ones in Ottawa? Sure they are. But they are a LOT more expensive to play and all of them except Bethpage are open all year round which makes maintenance easier.

    That being said there are courses in Ottawa that offer fast, true rolling greens. Not surprisingly, they are at the higher end of the cost curve. You are either playing the wrong courses or simply refuse to accept the economic reality of running a golf course.
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