Tending the flagstick while off the green?

[hackzaw]

I was golfing with a friend and his son, who's played in many competitive junior events (which is why this question came up).

My ball was on the fringe, not on the putting surface. The pin was quite a long ways away, but I wanted him to tend the pin (obviously to pull the pin after I had struck my ball). He says, "Nope, either IN or OUT. Not allowed to TEND it when off the green".

So, where's this coming from? I asked him why or where this came from, and he said he wasn't even sure why, except that it had been an issue in some of his son's competitive events.

17-1. Flagstick Attended, Removed or Held Up
Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole.

[goochy]

you can have the flagstick attended from anywhere. However, if you are off the green (especially if you are putting from the fringe) you are generally better off keeping it in because if you hit it there is no penalty

[Kilroy]

Please don't post using huge fonts. Thanks.

[justsomeguy]

As goochy pointed out, you are allowed to have the flagstick attended from anywhere but...

...if your opponent or FC refuses to do so then that is their right. Not exactly a very sportsmanlike gesture, but if they believe it is not allowed then they can choose to decline your request.

[hackzaw]

Sorry about the font - cut and paste from the on-line rules book.

Okay - so now I know, but unfortunately this fellow is one of those types that unless you were a rules official on the PGA Tour, he won't believe me. He thought there was some obscure rule that prevented the above ruling. Simply showing him rule 17-1 probably wouldn't be enough to convince him.

Maybe all this came about because at one time, someone REFUSED to tend a pin, and it's become folklore that you CAN'T have it tended.

[Marcos]

So are you playing a competition or is this a social round of golf with friends?Not sure i would play with people who are uptight about the rules when its a fun round of golf.

[AAA]

Not sure i would play with people who are uptight about the rules when its a fun round of golf.

I thought the RCGA handicap system requires you to post all scores. How genuine can a handicap be if the rules are ignored?

[Indio]

I thought the RCGA handicap system requires you to post all scores. How genuine can a handicap be if the rules are ignored?

Not everyone CHOOSES to keep or maintain a handicap, some play the game for the sheer pleasure of the game, not the competition.

[justsomeguy]

Not everyone CHOOSES to keep or maintain a handicap, some play the game for the sheer pleasure of the game, not the competition.

I think AAA is being misunderstood here. I believe he was responding to the notion that someone who plays in competitions where handicaps are used only needs to follow the rules in "competitive rounds" and can ignore them for all others.

If you ONLY play "fun" rounds, then nobody cares (or should care) how you play. It depends more on the type on player you choose to be, not the type of round it is.

[Marcos]

If i am playing a competitive round or playing in my home league then yes to all the rules.I,m talking when playing with friends and actually enjoying yourself.Like Indio said,not everyone keeps a handicap and a lot more people play this game for fun i'm sure.

[PapaPat]

If i am playing a competitive round or playing in my home league then yes to all the rules.I,m talking when playing with friends and actually enjoying yourself.Like Indio said,not everyone keeps a handicap and a lot more people play this game for fun i'm sure.

What do you call this game they play? I believe in hockey it is called shinny. Lots of fun I'm sure, but it is not golf. The "actually enjoying yourself" thing always gets me.

[AAA]

I,m talking when playing with friends and actually enjoying yourself.Like Indio said,not everyone keeps a handicap and a lot more people play this game for fun i'm sure.

I, and everyone I play with attempt to play by the rules and we actually enjoy ourselves. Many, who know of my interest, will ask me to point out anything they are doing wrong.
If people don't wish to maintain a handicap, fine. If players with a handicap don't wish to play by the rules, I find that disappointing.

But comments about 'being uptight' about a rule in a Rules Discussion forum does seem bizarre.

[Marcos]

So what you are saying is that every time i tee it up I should play by the rules.Its just a game and I dont make a living out of this.Sorry to dissapoint you.If you dont mind,lets get back to the topic of tending the pin and forget about our personal differences and opinions.

[Kilroy]

A forum that exists to inform and educate about the rules of golf is not really an appropriate place to advocate the 'fun' of achieving lower scores by not following them.

[BC MIST]

So what you are saying is that every time i tee it up I should play by the rules.Its just a game and I dont make a living out of this.Sorry to dissapoint you.If you dont mind,lets get back to the topic of tending the pin and forget about our personal differences and opinions.

Whether playing with friends during a casual round or playing in a national championship golf is fun. During both, I play by the rules and doing so never diminishes the enjoyment derived from the game. In fact, not playing by the rules would decrease the enjoyment for me, as it's cheating. My 75 is a 75, not an 82.

What I fail to understand is why someone who does not play by the rules, would keep score. The number is meaningless.

[goochy]

I certainly don't follow all the rules every time I set foot on a golf course because many times (maybe one out of every 4) I will play a practice round...often on my own in late afternoon. I might drop 2 or 3 balls in each spot, deliberately put myself in a bunker or whatever. Its practice on the course which is probably much more valuable than range time (but unfortunately much more expensive). When I do this I certainly don't keep score...it's just practice

However, when I tee it up on the first tee of a round where I have decided it will be a "real" round...even if alone...then of course I try to follow all the rules. I keep a RCGA handicap and as stated, if you didn't keep score properly it wouldn't count for much. I have no problem with people not playing by the rules, taking free drops mulligans etc but then just don't keep score

[Marcos]

Lyle,I respect what you are saying.The only thing is I play everyday,yes everyday,with my wife and other golfing couples at our course.For me its a social activity to meet other people and have a good time while getting a bit of exercise.Most of the people i play with dont know the rules.They are out there for the same reasons that we are.But if i were to play a match play with someone who goes by the rules of golf then i play by the rules(the little that i know) lol.Like i said its just a game for us.I hope this helps you to understand were i am comming from.

[AAA]

Marcos
I think we all respect your choice about when you play by the rules. However, this is a rules discussion forum and I hope you understand contributors' reluctance to take seriously any suggestion that players ignore the rules we are discussing.
Otherwise we will end up with threads arguing the pros and cons of which rules we may conveniently ignore and which ones we should use.
That is of course not the same as a thread about rules with which players disagree and wish to abandon or change.

[g8r]

What do you call this game they play? I believe in hockey it is called shinny. Lots of fun I'm sure, but it is not golf. The "actually enjoying yourself" thing always gets me.

with all due respect, it is still called hockey. you do not need to play by every rule in the NHL rule book to be playing the sport of hockey, just like you do not need to play by every rule in the RCGA rule book to be playing golf. I really wish people would abandon the notion that not playing by the rules is not "golf". It is an elitist attitude that is not necessary. Just about everyone agrees (I hope) that if you want to play competitvely, and use a valid handicap, the Rules of Golf are necessary to ensure fairness.

If you want to use the Rules definition, perhaps these people are not playing the Game of Golf (notice capital letters), but these people are definitely golfing.

here is the standard definition of golf form multiple sources:
-A game played on a large outdoor course with a series of 9 or 18 holes spaced far apart, the object being to propel a small, hard ball with the use of various clubs into each hole with as few strokes as possible.
-Golf is an outdoor lawn sport in which competing players (golfers) using many types of clubs, attempt to hit balls into each hole on a golf course in the lowest number of strokes.
-A ball game played by individuals competing against one another in which the object is to hit a ball into each of a series of (usually 18 or nine) holes in the minimum number of strokes.

[PapaPat]

I know, but it is what we are compelled to say everytime someone uses the phrase, "actually enjoying yourself".

[BC MIST]

Lyle,I respect what you are saying.The only thing is I play everyday,yes everyday,with my wife and other golfing couples at our course.For me its a social activity to meet other people and have a good time while getting a bit of exercise.Most of the people i play with dont know the rules.They are out there for the same reasons that we are.But if i were to play a match play with someone who goes by the rules of golf then i play by the rules(the little that i know) lol.Like i said its just a game for us.I hope this helps you to understand were i am comming from.

I do understand. A former co-worker, an extremely competitive person, plays "golf," but never keeps score and just picks up whenever he has taken enough strokes for a particular hole. No handicap, no competition, no scoring , but just a walk in the park and for him this is fun.

Played 9 holes alone Tuesday afternoon with 2 to 4 balls, trying an assortment of shots and really enjoyed myself. What bothers me though is the seemingly growing number of golfers who don't/won't play by the rules, think the rules are stupid or too complicated or think that those of us who play by them are not having fun or are too serious, and yet they keep score and a handicap.

[Kilroy]

are too serious

I get this all the time.

I sometimes have conversations like this ...

Them: "What's the rule for this situation"

Me: "blah, blah... bad news... blah, blah"

Them: "Screw it I'll just kick it out"

Me: (to myself...) then why ask?

[Chambokl]

I am on Marcos side...

Definition:

Fun – Where 2, 3 or 4 golfer join together on a nice sunny day for a "fun" round of golf. Rules will be followed like usual (not strictly). Only our group is involve and nobody else (not a tournament)

Rules that might be broken:

* gimmes
* after 2 or 3 holes one of the golfer says that he forgot to take his old driver out of the bag so he actually has 15 sticks... I don't worry about it
* if somebody drop his wedge in the bunker before his shot... I will tell him the rule but not worry about it (accident)
* I am sure there are other rules that we bend ...

For the original question: I would tend the pin if somebody ask me... I am a nice guy...lol.

Fun round doesn't mean: mulligan, redos, etc...

Like Marcos said I golf with people to meet them not to give them a hard time. If I don't like what they do it is only 4 hours... just tough it... not a big deal. If I enjoy them I might meet them again and now I have a new friend... or friends... never have too many. Some people should try this it is fun... not that word again!

[Kilroy]

When I play with people other than in a "money game" I don't care what they do. The less time they take to do it, the better. I'm not there to give anyone a 'hard time'. I'll play my own game by the rules. I will pick up if returning to the tee or going beyond my ESC will delay the group. I will always answer rules questions.

If we are playing for $1 a hole, I expect we will play by the rules. Most people who play for a few coins feel the same way. If you are not used to playing by them you'll be at a disadvantage. With 'casual rules' people never agree on what rules should be applied or not. It makes wagering difficult to do fairly if not impossible.

All my regular groups play by the rules. 90% of people I get randomly paired with do not. It's all good untill they claim a score which is pretty lame.

[PapaPat]

[QUOTE=Chambokl;318461]*
if somebody drop his wedge in the bunker before his shot... I will tell him the rule but not worry about it (accident)
* QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure that this is not bending a rule . You can take and drop your cart, bag , all your clubs, rakes and whatever else you want into the bunker. If you are not testing or touching it is not a penalty. I don't think that dropping it by accident is what is meant by "touching". At our club, people are way paranoid about this.

[Kilroy]

Here you go.

13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions
Exceptions:
1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in marking the position of, retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or
(b) places his clubs in a hazard.