Ottawa Citizen RD 1, ready??

[Indio]

Gee... I had no idea my posting the scoring breakdown would steer the conversation in this direction.

It goes that way every year no matter what is posted!

[mjf]

One other thing I remembered about my round today... well, one of my FC's rounds actually. On the 9th hole, he hit his 4th shot into a greenside bunker... into a fresh footprint.

It's bad enough when you end up in a footprint during a casual round. He asked a rules official for relief but didn't get any (I knew he wouldn't). What kind of jerk wouldn't rake a bunker in a tournament??

[mjf]

It goes that way every year no matter what is posted!

Probably because there's some validity to the claim. Of course, it doesn't really make any difference this year because I don't believe they had a full field.

[joethepro66]

My round went ok for the most part, 1 double on 9 and 1 birdie. Shot a 76, but you could see that 66 was there. Im sure he missed 2-3 putts as well. What place is 76??

My prediction the cut will be 168????????????????

[BC MIST]

Once again, the Citizen Amateur exposes how many guys are lying about their single digit handicaps! Of course, it could just be that their handicaps travel very, very, very badly..........

Possibly. However, the handicap system shows that golfers play to their handicap ONLY about 25% of the time, and then combine a McBroom course where the element of luck is way out of proportion with the pressure that many golfers feel when they play in a tournament like this, and the high scores are understandable. While Stonebridge is similarly designed, the experience of round 1 should help many be better on the 16th

[mjf]

Round 1 scores are on-line here:

http://209.217.91.134/flash/ottawaCi...oreRound1.html

[mjf]

... and then combine a McBroom course where the element of luck is way out of proportion...

Element of luck? From my perspective luck doesn't come into play any more at Kanata Lakes (or Stonebridge) than any other course I've played.

I haven't played Kanata Lakes a tremendous amount, but in my experience it demands that you:
- place your tee shots in the correct area of the fairways
- place your approach shots in the correct area on the greens (or miss in the right place)
- putt extremely well

If you do those things, you'll score well at Kanata Lakes. If you hit poor shots and miss in the wrong places you will be punished. I think Stonebridge is similar except that you can spray the ball a bit more off the tee as long as you avoid the fescue.

To me the "element of luck" on a golf course implies that two nearly identically hit shots that land within one yard of each other have radically different outcomes. The sort of thing that happens on the hard/fast fairways of a British Open course... That's simply not the case at Kanata Lakes IMHO.

Why do you feel luck is such an important factor at Kanata Lakes?

[Arrt]

[QUOTE=mjf;316745]Element of luck? From my perspective luck doesn't come into play any more at Kanata Lakes (or Stonebridge) than any other course I've played.

I haven't played Kanata Lakes a tremendous amount, but in my experience it demands that you:
- place your tee shots in the correct area of the fairways
- place your approach shots in the correct area on the greens (or miss in the right place)
- putt extremely well

Pretty sure this is how a PGA player wins a Major....

[mjf]

[QUOTE=Arrt;316826]

Pretty sure this is how a PGA player wins a Major....

I doubt Kanata Lakes will be mistaken for Augusta National anytime soon.

[BC MIST]

Element of luck? From my perspective luck doesn't come into play any more at Kanata Lakes (or Stonebridge) than any other course I've played.

I haven't played Kanata Lakes a tremendous amount, but in my experience it demands that you:
-(1) place your tee shots in the correct area of the fairways
- place your approach shots in the correct area on the greens (or miss in the right place)
- putt extremely well

If you do those things, you'll score well at Kanata Lakes. If you hit poor shots and miss in the wrong places you will be punished. I think Stonebridge is similar except that you can spray the ball a bit more off the tee as long as you avoid the fescue.

To me the "element of luck" on a golf course implies that(2) two nearly identically hit shots that land within one yard of each other have radically different outcomes. The sort of thing that happens on the hard/fast fairways of a British Open course... That's simply not the case at Kanata Lakes IMHO.

Why do you feel luck is such an important factor at Kanata Lakes?

There are many courses where hitting the fairway gives you a good chance of hitting the green and hitting anywhere on the green gives you a good chance of making par/birdie. KL and to a much greater extent SB and TM, don't permit this as they force you to do exactly what you described in bold above. This requires an element of skill beyond most/all Citizen participants, (otherwise they would be on Tour) and to hit those precise spots that prevent, for example, an iron shot from rolling off the green because it hit the wrong part of the green, is as much luck as it is skill. (2) above is exactly what SB is all about and some greens/fairways at KL offer similar results.

Why should there be a "correct area" on a green? If the green is 5,000 sq. ft, but landing on 4,000 sq. ft. of it causes the ball to roll off the green or into a location where two putts in almost impossible, there is a design flaw. Sure, above the hole should be more difficult that below the hole, but if the green is designed intelligently, then it should be possible to stop the ball by the hole with the right touch. Does this apply to all of KL's and SB's greens? If it does not, then unless you are Tiger Woods, to have to hit the ball consistently below the hole, is as much luck as skill, and it's out of proportion, IMHO.

[mjf]

This requires an element of skill beyond most/all Citizen participants, (otherwise they would be on Tour)

I disagree. Just because I don't have the skill to hit perfect shots every time doesn't mean I just got lucky when I finally do hit a good one. When I hit crappy shots on a course like KL or SB, I'm fine with ending up in crappy spots. I for one enjoy the challenge of knowing I need to be precise and/or miss in the right spot.

I know that I had specific strategies for certain holes in round 1. For example, if the pin on #3 was in the front, I was making damned sure my ball was short of the ridge running right through the middle of the green... even if it meant being short of the green. As it turned out, I ended up just short and putted in for birdie from just off the green. Lucky?? Sure there was a bit of luck involved, but I would like to think that my course strategy had a lot to do with it.

... and to hit those precise spots that prevent, for example, an iron shot from rolling off the green because it hit the wrong part of the green, is as much luck as it is skill. (2) above is exactly what SB is all about and some greens/fairways at KL offer similar results.

I really think maybe you should give Stonebridge another try. I play there all the time and I can think of only one portion of a single green that's VERY difficult to hit and hold. Then again, it's only a 360 yard hole from the back tees so it should be hard! The idea that Stonebridge's greens repel mediocre shots is just plain wrong. I should know, I've hit my share of less than stellar shots there! Of course there are a few pin positions that are really difficult... sucker pins... I rarely shoot for them because it's just dumb to try.

Why should there be a "correct area" on a green? If the green is 5,000 sq. ft, but landing on 4,000 sq. ft. of it causes the ball to roll off the green or into a location where two putts in almost impossible, there is a design flaw.

As I said above, balls rarely roll off Stonebridge's greens... perhaps the greens were much faster the last time you played there. And yes, if you hit a terrible shot 50 feet away on a green at Stonebridge then a 3-putt is going to be a real possibility. What's wrong with that? Even mediocre shots (or ones played with "where do I miss?" in mind won't leave an impossible up and down... and I ain't no pro (as my 82 yesterday will attest!).

Sure, above the hole should be more difficult that below the hole, but if the green is designed intelligently, then it should be possible to stop the ball by the hole with the right touch. Does this apply to all of KL's and SB's greens?

In my opinion... yes. Perhaps to a lesser extent at KL because the greens are faster and a couple of them are super small.

I guess you and I just like different course architecture styles. It sounds to me that you prefer relatively flat greens where, if you hit the green, you have a good chance of making birdie. For me, that's boring... not that I'm saying I'll likely be breaking par on one of these courses anytime soon.

On the other hand, I prefer greens with a lot of undulation where I have to really think about where I want my shot to end up and I don't mind being punished for putting my shot in the wrong spot.

[joethepro66]

Never mind all of that, I would have hated to play with the guys that shot 95+. That would have been hard to concentrate on your game. Why do club officails sign bogus handicap cards? If they do that they should be punished some how.

[Bouche]

man....those are some bad scores!! couldnt believe the numbers I saw in the newspaper yesterday....atta boy marc!! 66!!

[mjf]

Never mind all of that, I would have hated to play with the guys that shot 95+. That would have been hard to concentrate on your game. Why do club officails sign bogus handicap cards? If they do that they should be punished some how.

I mentioned earlier that I played with a guy who shot 75... What I didn't mention is that I also played with a guy who shot 97. It didn't really bother me. It's not like he was duffing every second shot. It was his first time ever playing in a tournament and he hit a several high cuts off the tee that cost him.

[jvincent]

Never mind all of that, I would have hated to play with the guys that shot 95+. That would have been hard to concentrate on your game. Why do club officails sign bogus handicap cards? If they do that they should be punished some how.

A lot depends on how you get there. I shot 92 mostly because of two very bad holes.

One of the other guys in my group shot 93 and he basically rode the bogey train all day with a couple of lost balls that resulted in double or triple.

[joethepro66]

I think the scores at StoneBridge will be worse, that is a tougher course than Kanata? What do you all think?

Forgot to Mention, Looks like Peter Nabi turned things around with a 72 ! Gratz

[Bouche]

No way! Stonebridge is much much easier then Kanata! Wide open and it seems like at Kanata there were alot of penalty strokes taken

[jeffc]

the fescue at SB is sooooooooo long right now. Basically near impossible to find a ball hit in there. Just a word of warning. Not saying it is more difficult than KL, it will just be a nightmare if you don't hit it straight.

[Bouche]

ya but SB has wide fairways no?

[mjf]

I play at Stonebridge all the time and have had many of my best rounds on the course. In my opinion, it's an easier course than Kanata Lakes partially because it doesn't put quite as much of a premium on accuracy off the tee. Of course, if you go WAY off line at Stonebridge... you're dead... but the same can be said of Kanata Lakes. The greens are also firmer / faster at KL than at SB.

I think there's a chance a lot of guys will be ticked off with the conditions (even playing preferred lies) and it might throw them off their game. I also think there are a lot of guys who just hate Stonebridge and will never be able to play their best golf there.

The scoring average for Round 1 at Kanata Lakes was 83.6. I suspect it'll be about the same at Stonebridge but SB is par 71 vs. KL's par 70. We'll also be playing from the back tees on almost every hole at Stonebridge whereas we played the back tees on only 6 holes at KL.

[mjf]

the fescue at SB is sooooooooo long right now.

That it is! I'd be surprised if they don't mow it before the tournament though. They normally do mow it once a season. Even still, it's pretty tough to find a ball that goes in there.

[jvincent]

I think the scores at StoneBridge will be worse, that is a tougher course than Kanata? What do you all think?

SB has a LOT more water in play than KL and the fescue is also death so it has the potential for some very large numbers if you are at all crooked off the tee.

That being said, the scores should be lower.

[Arrt]

When is the 2nd round going to be played?

[jvincent]

July 16.

[Arrt]

Why so far apart?

[jvincent]

Probably just the scheduling of the courses.

[marcf]

Schedule is spread out mainly because Golf Quebec "majors" start next week, Alexander of Tunis at Rivermead on Sunday 5th and Monday 6th, and the Duke of Kent at Royal Quebec (Quebec City) on Thurs 9th (PR)-Friday 10th -Saturday 11th. Add Intersectionals in on Sunday 12th, and the schedule gets pretty full. I know the organizers were taking this into consideration, as some players are playing in those events, and trying to jam the 2nd round in between there would be a nightmare.

Oh, and for a second point, for those who say the field is "smaller" than usual (for whatever reasons), look at the scores, there was 140 that started round 1. No drop off from prior years. Yeah yeah, I know they extended the deadline date, but it worked. Congrats to the tournament committee.

[Bouche]

I think the Alexander of Tunis preventer Marc-Etienne from playing in the Citizen last year?

[marcf]

I am pretty sure it was the Kent that got in the way , as the Practice round is on the Thursday, with the tournament on Friday and Saturday. I can't remember if any of the tournament rounds were on that same Thursday.

If I remember correctly, Marc-Ettiene was having some back problems too...

[stinger]

It doesn't matter which course is more difficult or not, it's how the gears are lubed in the head department and how well you iced the nerves that make a difference in scores. I've shot under par at both courses many times but in tournaments - I have a hard time breaking 80 at those courses - uhh - any course.