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Thread: Ball in Water Hazard
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05-16-2004 11:29 AM #1
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Ball in Water Hazard
My ball lands in a water hazard and I decide that I want to play it out. I do not ground the club, however, the club touches some long grass that is growing in the hazard, as I take my backswing.
As I start down I decide that I want to stop my swing and do so before contacting the ball, however, the clubhead touches the top of the blades of grass that I contacted as I took my backswing.
While I believe that I am not penalized for contacting the grass on the way back, am I penalized for touching it on my abbreviated downswing?
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05-16-2004 12:49 PM #2Originally Posted by BC MIST
13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions
Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.
Exceptions:
1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard.
2. After making the stroke, the player or his caddie may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided that, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, nothing is done that improves the lie of the ball or assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole.
Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch with a club or otherwise any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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05-16-2004 06:45 PM #3
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Originally Posted by broken27
However, the question is, if I check my downswing, thereby, NOT having any intent to hit the ball, am I penalized for touching the same grass? I believe that I would be penalized, but I am not sure.
Thanks for your help.
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05-16-2004 07:26 PM #4Originally Posted by BC MIST
Looking forward to the answer!
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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05-16-2004 10:55 PM #5
No penalties
Originally Posted by BC MIST
You "addressed the ball" in the hazard when you took your stance (without grounding your club). Because you voluntarily checked your downswing, you are deemed not to have made a "stroke" - so during the entire action of backswing/checked downswing you were still "addressing the ball". The Note in Rule 13-4 therefore allows you to touch the grass in BOTH directions because during the entire time you were "at address".[COLOR=green][B]Golf is a game invented by the same people who think music comes out of bagpipes.[/B][/COLOR]
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05-17-2004 10:09 AM #6
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Originally Posted by el tigre
I will ask a QGA Rules official at the Spring Open qualifier later today, for clarification and then post his ruling.
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05-17-2004 11:07 AM #7Originally Posted by BC MIST
Originally Posted by BC MIST[COLOR=green][B]Golf is a game invented by the same people who think music comes out of bagpipes.[/B][/COLOR]
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05-17-2004 11:08 AM #8Originally Posted by BC MIST
Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch with a club or otherwise any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing
Just my take, will be interested to see the ruling.
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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05-17-2004 11:30 AM #9Big_duckGuestOriginally Posted by broken27
That being said, it could still be a penalty under 13-2 Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play depending on what happened to the grass.
BTW, anybody know were Gary is? He has been awfully quiet lately.
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05-17-2004 01:14 PM #10Originally Posted by BC MIST
I'm curious on what the RCGA ruling is (not the OVGA ruling)......
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05-17-2004 01:33 PM #11Originally Posted by The Shtick
Thanks again for an awesome time this Saturday! My little "foul" with spotting the ball on the green would have made a huge difference!
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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05-17-2004 01:35 PM #12Originally Posted by broken27
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05-17-2004 01:41 PM #13Originally Posted by The Shtick
Cheers,
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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05-17-2004 01:44 PM #14Big_duckGuestOriginally Posted by The Shtick
Stroke
A “stroke’’ is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.
http://www.rcga.org/english/Rules/rules_definitions.asp
So no stroke.
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05-17-2004 01:47 PM #15Originally Posted by broken27
Case in point, we all learn the rules one way or another. What hurts the most is getting called on something that you had no idea about....
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05-17-2004 01:49 PM #16Originally Posted by The Shtick
Dan`[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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05-17-2004 01:52 PM #17Originally Posted by broken27
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05-17-2004 02:54 PM #18
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Some may say that by stopping your swing, you end ed up clearing some grass, therefore giving you a better swing, maybe a stroke is warranted. I too am interested in the ruling. I say there is a penalty stroke.
http://www.EatDrinkSleepGolf.com
Myrtle Beach Golf
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05-17-2004 02:56 PM #19Originally Posted by EDSGOLF
Damn golf and it's stupidly complex rules system. So much fun, yet so much mental anguish.....
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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05-17-2004 06:21 PM #20Originally Posted by BC MIST
Therefore, there is no penalty.
The wranglings over stroke, swing, at address, downswing, intent to hit, etc. are irrelevant.
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05-17-2004 09:59 PM #21
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Originally Posted by Gary Hill
This is exactly what I was told today by a QGA rules official.
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05-20-2004 10:05 AM #22
I have a question! I was in a similar situation during the Intersectionals. Being in a hazard with tall grass (fescue), I also stopped my downswing before hitting the ball. I was called cause my backswing and/or checked downswing broke some fescue and/or grass. Since I did not actually stroke the ball, I was called for improving my lie in a hazard.
How is BC Mist situation different then mine?Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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05-20-2004 10:59 AM #23Big_duckGuestOriginally Posted by mberube
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05-20-2004 11:21 AM #24Originally Posted by Big_duck
I don’t know! I’m confused!
Is it because they did not notice it?Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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05-20-2004 11:42 AM #25
mberube - "my backswing and/or checked downswing broke some fescue and/or grass."
BCMIST - "the clubhead touches the top of the blades of grass"
I think there could be enough of a difference to result in a different ruling.[COLOR=green][B]Golf is a game invented by the same people who think music comes out of bagpipes.[/B][/COLOR]
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05-20-2004 10:32 PM #26
mberube -
It is basically irrelevant that you were in hazard.
Rule 13-4 Ball in Hazard says, in part, ... before making a stroke...
the player shall not test the hazard
the player shall not touch the ground or water in a hazard
the player shall not touch or move a loose impediment.
None of this applies in your case.
Your question relates solely to Rule 13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play.
You either did or did not improve your lie when you broke some grass before the stroke.
It is not a penalty to break some grass, it is a penalty to improve your lie.
How much grass you broke and how this affected your area of intended swing, I cannot say.
Each individual case would have to be decided on its own merit.
But suffice to say, it is not automatically a penalty, nor is it automatically not a penalty.
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05-21-2004 08:08 AM #27
Frustrating cause the lie was NOT improved in my opinion. The official explained to me that if my ball would have been in the rough, in playable grass and I would of checked the clearance of my backswing, at that moment my club would of broken a leaf from a branch sticking out from the rough, I would have been called the same penalty.
This is giving me a headache.Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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05-21-2004 09:38 AM #28
Well, whether or not your area of intended swing was improved is always a matter of opinion.
I agree with the official that whether or not you were in a hazard is irelevant.
However, from your statement of facts, it seems that the official was under the impression that breaking A LEAF from the branch would constitute a penalty.
As I stated above, this is not necessarily true.
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