Alignment for a draw

[OttawaP]

Do you guys always align to the right (right handed swing) to hit a draw or can you come from the inside enough to play it ??
My game is developing enough confidence to start working the ball a bit more...on purpose...and was wondering if this is needed. I have to align left or right for a fade or draw as needed to give me an easier club swing path.

Paul

[sillywilly]

i just drop my right foot backwards a bit for a draw. I don't know why it works but it does (once in a while)

[Domo]

If you really want to understand the true physics of ball flight/ shot shape, google "golf D plane". You can actually hit a draw with a slightly open stance and slightly open club face...The D plane indicates that the "old" ball flight laws are inaccurate (i.e. line up closed, club face square, ball initially follows your stance line and curves to the face. Not so).

And no, it doesn't help me in my shaping of shots. Knowing and doing are two different things.

[BC MIST]

If you really want to understand the true physics of ball flight/ shot shape, google "golf D plane". You can actually hit a draw with a slightly open stance and slightly open club face...The D plane indicates that the "old" ball flight laws are inaccurate (i.e. line up closed, club face square, ball initially follows your stance line and curves to the face. Not so).

And no, it doesn't help me in my shaping of shots. Knowing and doing are two different things.

In the first "D" plane diagram the ball finishes LEFT of the target so it is a HOOK versus a pure draw. It is necessary to have an inside club head path AND a slightly open club face, to have the ball start right of body alignment and have it curve back to the target line. The ratio of INSIDE path to the OPEN face is roughly 3:2.

To achieve a pure draw, the golfer must drop the arms down on plane at the transition and his grip must be weak enough to achieve the slightly open face at impact. Yes, it is still possible to swing a little from the inside with an open stance. Lee Trevino's swing is a classic. To see three beautiful examples of the proper start to the downswing, go to www.pgatour.com/swingplex and view Henrik Stenson, Ernie Els and Tiger Woods, from the down the line view to see the arms start down, on plane.

[OttawaP]

Hopefully I didn't open too big a can o' worms here. No chance I'll ever be able to draw with an open stance, that is a skill I won't invest any time in......But from a straight stance would be nice.

For now I align my club at the target and close my stance to where I want the ball to start out at. Works pretty good on irons....my driver is pretty dead straight or a slight pull whatever I do.

Being able to take the closed stance out of the equation should provide more accuracy in my mind.

[Domo]

Hopefully I didn't open too big a can o' worms here. No chance I'll ever be able to draw with an open stance, that is a skill I won't invest any time in......But from a straight stance would be nice.

For now I align my club at the target and close my stance to where I want the ball to start out at. Works pretty good on irons....my driver is pretty dead straight or a slight pull whatever I do.

That's the point - it does not actually start out along your stance line (base line). It actually starts out 70-85% towards the direction of your club FACE. Have a look here:


http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/g...-manzella.html

As always, YMMV.

[BC MIST]

Hopefully I didn't open too big a can o' worms here. No chance I'll ever be able to draw with an open stance, that is a skill I won't invest any time in......But from a straight stance would be nice.

For now I align my club at the target and close my stance to where I want the ball to start out at. Works pretty good on irons....my driver is pretty dead straight or a slight pull whatever I do.

Being able to take the closed stance out of the equation should provide more accuracy in my mind.

Unless it is extreme, the alignment of your feet has little influence on the initial flight of the ball. However, the alignment of your shoulders AND how you start the downswing both has great influence on the flight. The ball tends to start parallel to your shoulder line, not your foot line.

[Chieflongtee]

However, the alignment of your shoulders AND how you start the downswing both has great influence on the flight. start .

Backswing does not matter? I would tend to believe that if you bring it in you have more chances of bringing back down the right path instead of having to reroute it.No?

[BC MIST]

Backswing does not matter? I would tend to believe that if you bring it in you have more chances of bringing back down the right path instead of having to reroute it.No?

IMO, no. If one takes the club back inside, below ideal plane, there is a much greater tendency for the hands/arms to come out and over at the transition. On the other hand, if I am "on plane" or even slightly above, it is now quite easy to drop the hands/arms down, producing the pure draw. But, if one can take it inside and maintain that below plane position, then sure, a draw is possible, but if there is any anxiety it's tough not to come out.

The truth is that 90%+ of all golfers come over the top because of right shoulder/arm/hand dominance, so they can't drop the arms, making the pure draw virtually impossible. A hook, yes, but not the draw.

[Gary Madore]

Do you guys always align to the right (right handed swing) to hit a draw or can you come from the inside enough to play it ??
My game is developing enough confidence to start working the ball a bit more...on purpose...and was wondering if this is needed. I have to align left or right for a fade or draw as needed to give me an easier club swing path.

Paul

Hey Paul!

Good to see you here.

I have no advice on your draw setup, but I did wanna say that if you start finding old clubs in your gargage, give me a call: I'd be happy to trade you for Tim's, as per usual

heh heh

Cheers!

Gary

[Hacker]

I like Nicklaus' approach to fading and drawing the ball.......use your same set-up and your same swing. Just close the face for a draw and open it for a fade - of course this is dependent on the player having a good solid, consistent swing to begin with this approach makes far more sense to me than trying to develop a fade swing/set-up, and a draw swing/set-up in addition to my normal swing/set-up.

http://www.golftipsauthority.com/gol...aw-fade-1-of-2

[BC MIST]

I like Nicklaus' approach to fading and drawing the ball.......use your same set-up and your same swing. Just close the face for a draw and open it for a fade - of course this is dependent on the player having a good solid, consistent swing to begin with this approach makes far more sense to me than trying to develop a fade swing/set-up, and a draw swing/set-up in addition to my normal swing/set-up.

Let's assume that Nicklaus setup with feet hips and shoulders and CLUB FACE aligned to the target. If he swung down close to the shaft axis plane, he would likely produce a pure draw. BUT, if setup the same and then either OPENED or CLOSED the club face as suggested, he would not draw the ball, but he would HOOK the ball left or SLICE the ball right. While many believe that any right to left shot is a draw, most are really hooks.

If you want to hook the ball, aim right and close the face. A pure draw is hard to do as one has to setup squarely and swing properly down on plane, so that the club head path is from the inside, the face is fractionally open at separation and the hands are ahead of the ball at impact. When achieved, it has the best feeling that a golf shot can give and seems so simple. As I suggested above, have a look at Ernie from down the line to see what a square setup and the move down on plane look like, resulting in the ball starting right of the target line, gently curving back - a pure draw.

[Chieflongtee]

I like Nicklaus' approach to fading and drawing the ball.......use your same set-up and your same swing. Just close the face for a draw and open it for a fade - of course this is dependent on the player having a good solid, consistent swing to begin with this approach makes far more sense to me than trying to develop a fade swing/set-up, and a draw swing/set-up in addition to my normal swing/set-up.

http://www.golftipsauthority.com/gol...aw-fade-1-of-2

I have read his book on many occasions and let me assure you that there is more to it than just closing or opening the face. A swing across the target line will not bring about a draw no matter how closed the face is.

A pure draw is hard to do as one has to setup squarely and swing properly down on plane, so that the club head path is from the inside, the face is fractionally open at separation and the hands are ahead of the ball at impact. When achieved, it has the best feeling that a golf shot can give and seems so simple. As I suggested above, have a look at Ernie from down the line to see what a square setup and the move down on plane look like, resulting in the ball starting right of the target line, gently curving back - a pure draw.

How often do you hit the pure draw per round? Do you aim straight down the fairway? Isn't it safer to accept your swing tendencies and therefore increasing your percentages?

[BC MIST]

How often do you hit the pure draw per round? Do you aim straight down the fairway? Isn't it safer to accept your swing tendencies and therefore increasing your percentages?

Certainly agree with you that a player should consider his tendencies when playing, however,
I have two tendencies that happen a handful of times per round and I don't consider them when I play a shot. They both deal with slippage of my left thumb on the shaft and the groove on the right hand that contacts the left thumb. One results in a hook and the other a push fade.

The majority of my shots are now of the pure draw nature. MY FC's confirm that I am aiming at the target and most of the shots start right of the target line, and gently curve back. I have worked very hard for the last couple of seasons, winter an summer, in dropping my arms down on plane at the transition to get the path of the club head coming from the inside AND have adjusted my grip slightly, (weakened) to get the slightly open club face. The ball flight is a little lower, the distance a little longer and the slightly ballooning, little pushes, or push fades, are fewer in number. Too bad that I chip like a 35 handicapper.

[leftylucas]

The draw is difficult for me, I can fade no problem by firstly aiming the clubface to where I want the ball to end up Then I slide my front foot straight back slightly from my rear foot and line up my shoulders with my feet and swing on that line (open). I really can do this most of the time that I need it. For the draw it is exactly the same procedure except I slide my rear foot slightly and then line up the shoulders after I have set the clubface to the intended target except I have less success with this shot but then again I dont use it very often.

[Hacker]

The draw is difficult for me, I can fade no problem by firstly aiming the clubface to where I want the ball to end up Then I slide my front foot straight back slightly from my rear foot and line up my shoulders with my feet and swing on that line (open). I really can do this most of the time that I need it. For the draw it is exactly the same procedure except I slide my rear foot slightly and then line up the shoulders after I have set the clubface to the intended target except I have less success with this shot but then again I dont use it very often.

Luc,

I encourage you to practice this on Saturday.............. A LOT!!

[jeffc]

call it what you will, I use Hacker's suggestion. Lorena Ochoa does this as well (good enough for her, good enough for me!). I aim right of the target (feet and shoulders) close the face slightly and swing. If you want to get technical, it may not be a draw but the ball starts right and goes left. I can do the same thing for a fade though it is harder for me and I can't make the ball move as much.

For the average player, it avoids all this gobbledygook about planes, grips (weak or strong), dropping arms, bringing the club face inside, outside, etc. IMHO the golf swing is hard enough and a lot of us mere mortals don't have the time nor inclination to learn or practice these swing thoughts. The above works very nicely for me and requires no swing thoughts after initial set-up.

[Gary Madore]

Lorena Ochoa does this as well

Lorena Bobbit, on the other hand, made use of a wicked slice

Cheers!

Gary

[Hacker]

Lorena Bobbit, on the other hand, made use of a wicked slice

Cheers!

Gary

Nice

Score one for Gary

[Gary Madore]

Nice

Score one for Gary

Thank ya, thank ya... Thank ya very much.... I'll be here all week

Cheers!

Gary

[Chieflongtee]

call it what you will, I use Hacker's suggestion. Lorena Ochoa does this as well (good enough for her, good enough for me!). I aim right of the target (feet and shoulders) close the face slightly and swing. If you want to get technical, it may not be a draw but the ball starts right and goes left. I can do the same thing for a fade though it is harder for me and I can't make the ball move as much.

For the average player, it avoids all this gobbledygook about planes, grips (weak or strong), dropping arms, bringing the club face inside, outside, etc. IMHO the golf swing is hard enough and a lot of us mere mortals don't have the time nor inclination to learn or practice these swing thoughts. The above works very nicely for me and requires no swing thoughts after initial set-up.

Agreed but only if the club follows the feet alignment. Correct?

[jeffc]

Agreed but only if the club follows the feet alignment. Correct?

Agreed.

[BC MIST]

For the average player, it avoids all this gobbledygook about planes, grips (weak or strong), dropping arms, bringing the club face inside, outside, etc. IMHO the golf swing is hard enough and a lot of us mere mortals don't have the time nor inclination to learn or practice these swing thoughts. The above works very nicely for me and requires no swing thoughts after initial set-up.

Based on this comment,, the average golfer does NOT want to improve (because of lack of "time" and desire/"inclination,") and is content to play with the swing that they have, making the compensations necessary to keep the ball in play. There is certainly nothing wrong with this. However, none of the golfers I know have this mindset. Rather, they ALL want to get better.

To get better, they need to see someone who has an understanding of the things you call "gobbeldygook" or the player needs to understand them himself. If he does and if he can see himself on video or trusts someone else to make correct observations, he can make some adjustments to move towards a fundamentally correct, simple to repeat golf swing. Contrary to what you you indicated I said, my comments about swing plane, grip, ... are NOT swing thoughts, but characteristics of a good swing that any "mere mortal" can observe. How the golfer tries to achieve these characteristic is up to him or his teacher and should be done in practice, rather than on the course. Thinking about making these moves on the course is obviously a recipe for disaster and again, is NOT what I said one should do.

I aim right of the target (feet and shoulders) close the face slightly and swing. If you want to get technical, it may not be a draw but the ball starts right and goes left. I can do the same thing for a fade though it is harder for me and I can't make the ball move as much.

In this method you aim right, guessing that you have closed the face enough. The club head comes in along the body line, starts down the line, (correct?) and then HOOKS left. This tells me that the swing is fundamentally good, with no signs of an over the top motion which 95% plus golfers have. Why then would you not just aim at your target with a square club face? The same swing would produce a shot at the target with no compensations and no guessing.

Now, if I am trying to move the ball around the corner of a hole doglegging left, where I need a greater amount of curvature that a pure draw gives, i.e., a hook, then aiming down the middle with a slightly closed face will get the desired results.

With an understanding of what I am suggesting, achieving the desired results is actually quite easy, but, I respect others’ right to use whatever gobbledygook they wish.

[jeffc]

Based on this comment,, the average golfer does NOT want to improve (because of lack of "time" and desire/"inclination,") and is content to play with the swing that they have, making the compensations necessary to keep the ball in play. There is certainly nothing wrong with this. However, none of the golfers I know have this mindset. Rather, they ALL want to get better.

To get better, they need to see someone who has an understanding of the things you call "gobbeldygook" or the player needs to understand them himself. If he does and if he can see himself on video or trusts someone else to make correct observations, he can make some adjustments to move towards a fundamentally correct, simple to repeat golf swing. Contrary to what you you indicated I said, my comments about swing plane, grip, ... are NOT swing thoughts, but characteristics of a good swing that any "mere mortal" can observe. How the golfer tries to achieve these characteristic is up to him or his teacher and should be done in practice, rather than on the course. Thinking about making these moves on the course is obviously a recipe for disaster and again, is NOT what I said one should do.

In this method you aim right, guessing that you have closed the face enough. The club head comes in along the body line, starts down the line, (correct?) and then HOOKS left. This tells me that the swing is fundamentally good, with no signs of an over the top motion which 95% plus golfers have. Why then would you not just aim at your target with a square club face? The same swing would produce a shot at the target with no compensations and no guessing.

Now, if I am trying to move the ball around the corner of a hole doglegging left, where I need a greater amount of curvature that a pure draw gives, i.e., a hook, then aiming down the middle with a slightly closed face will get the desired results.

With an understanding of what I am suggesting, achieving the desired results is actually quite easy, but, I respect others’ right to use whatever gobbledygook they wish.

I believe most golfers want to get better but I don't have the time with work and family committments. I am lucky to get out and play once a week and practice time is virtually nil. So I try to learn what I can by watching golf, this site, reading magazines, etc. and find little tips that can help me improve. My personal opinion is for the recreational golfer, the golf swing is way too technical even when described on TV, and in magazines. I appreciate the simple tips that the layman can understand without having a PhD in the golf swing. If you are into all that, then great.

Regarding my swing, yes, I can hit it straight at the target with a square face as well. But for back left pins, or when I need to move the ball right to left around a tree, etc. or make sure that I am avoiding trouble on the right, I apply the above. It works great and I think for the average golfer, in a similar position to me, is a lot more straightforward to apply.

I understand my swing, know my faults and can compensate/fix accordingly. My swing is what it is (and its not bad) and fairly predictable.

And don't take any of this the wrong way, I enjoy reading all these posts and learning as much as I can it's the application of all of it that is the problem.

[BC MIST]

I believe most golfers want to get better but I don't have the time with work and family committments. I am lucky to get out and play once a week and practice time is virtually nil.

And don't take any of this the wrong way, I enjoy reading all these posts and learning as much as I can it's the application of all of it that is the problem.

Unlike you, I am retired, can play or practice any time I want (subject to my wife's approval) and do work hard on moving towards a swing that is not as technical as it may sound, but will yield consistently good results when the moon and stars are all aligned. Much of the practice is done without actually hitting balls. I do appreciate that you and perhaps most others play and practice when you can as there are things in our lives that are more important than golf.

While I do play golf for the fun of it, much of my fun is centred around preparing for the 20 to 25 competitive rounds I play each season and has been for almost 50 years. My pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is winning tournaments so I work more diligently at what I believe is fundamentally sound rather than just getting out when I can. Our purposes may be different, but our love for the game is the same.

[Chieflongtee]

Like Jeff C I can only get out once or twice a week. I do not draw the ball naturally. Actually I occasionally hit it straight fade it most of the times and slice it every now and then. For years I have tried to nail it straight down the pipe. This year I aim left and accept my swing tendencies. That has resulted in much better scores and much more fun. That is called playing percentage golf. Nicklaus called the straight ball an accident. Players such as Calcavechia . Lietzke, Kj Choi , Trevino ,Perry and the list goes on and on have accepted their swing tendencies and aim accordingly. To me attempting the pure draw or the pure fade is just too hard and much more stressfull. Just my 0.02.

[justsomeguy]

Like Jeff C I can only get out once or twice a week. I do not draw the ball naturally. Actually I occasionally hit it straight fade it most of the times and slice it every now and then. For years I have tried to nail it straight down the pipe. This year I aim left and accept my swing tendencies.

I'm not quite ready to aim for the fairway on the right and accept my natural pull hook - but it may come to that!

[Chieflongtee]

I'm not quite ready to aim for the fairway on the right and accept my natural pull hook - but it may come to that!

Just a little clarification. I do not aim 2 fairways to the left. I just favor the left. More with the driver and just a tad with the wedges and in between with the mid irons.
So there you go Terry. Next time you play 17 at CC just set up on the right side of the tee box aim right of the pin and you'll walk away with par

[mcgoo]

How in the heck did I get into this post. I can't fade or slice anymore, even when I try to. I hook with clubs the Chief makes for me.

[jonf]

I had thought I had found the trick to playing the draw last year, by dropping the back foot. I was hitting nice long tee balls, and could draw it into a green if the situation dictated. But it seems to come and go this year, and the more i think about trying to do it, the more erratic my shots have become. I've adopted the strategy of just stepping up to the ball, taking my natural stance, and swinging. I take the results as they come. I'm not hitting the ball as far, as I don't hit the draw very frequently, but I've decided that hitting it straight is more important. The only club I really lose any distance is with my driver (which I tend to fade), as the rest of them generally have a straight ball flight (assuming I hit em right). I don't have the time and money to invest in actually learning to hit a draw properly right now, so I'm choosing consistency.