Match Play - giving bad info

[spidey]

Its a match. Bob and Andy are on the tee of a par 3 hole. Andy plays first, slicing his ball into the trees out of bounds. The out of bounds is an environmental area, they are not permitted to go and look for the ball. Andy declares his ball lost, and plays another ball up to the green. Bob plays conservatively, 2 shots to the green, two putts and in the hole. Bob concedes Andy's putt for a 5. When Bob goes to take his ball out of the hole, there's another ball in the hole. Andy identifies it as his original ball. It has a scuff mark on it from a tree. Obviously it careened off the tree without Andy seeing or knowing.

Who wins the hole?
Did Andy give Bob misleading info?

[Gary Hill]

Andy wins the hole with a score of 1. Andy completed play of hole when he holed the original ball.

If you would like a detailed explanation of Information as to Strokes Taken or Match Play Claims, let me know and I will provide some principles and procedures.

The quote is unrelated to the question or answer, but it is a common misconception:

Andy declares his ball lost

You may NOT declare a ball lost.

[spidey]

If you would like a detailed explanation of Information as to Strokes Taken or Match Play Claims, let me know and I will provide some principles and procedures.

Yes, please. It always seems that the guy you play your match with finds a way to apply a rule you've never heard of. Any help would be appreciated.

spidey

[spidey]

I understand your answer, it's rather short, but...

You didn't address the issue about whether Bob was entitled to know whether Andy's ball was in the hole. Obviously, he would have played for an ace and half if he knew the ball was holed.

....also, assume I give bad information to my opponent which is untrue, but I think it is true. eg. I hit my ball and it looks like its going OB. I look away in disgust, and don't see that it actually landed in bounds. My opponent asks me how many strokes I've taken. I count the OB and penalty and tell him the total. He opts to play conservatively to insure the hole. Can he call a penalty on me if we walk up and find my original ball in play?

Also, in an area where you aren't entitled to look for a ball that may be lost, such as an environmental area, how does the OB or LB rule apply?

spidey

[Gary Hill]

Unfortunately, the unique circumstances of your specific example completely circumvent all questions of wrong information. Namely, Andy's score was 1 as soon as his original ball came to rest in the hole.

Just for the record, Andy was in fact lying 1whether or not the ball was in the hole. It was Bob's turn to play next on the tee and Andy does not have to annouce his next course of action until Bob has played from the tee.

Leaving this specific example aside, let's look at the principles of wrong informaton.

In match play, you are entitled to know the state of the match at any time. If you ask your opponent how many strokes he has taken and he gives you the wrong number, he loses the hole unless he corrects his mistake before you play your next stroke.

If your opponent has taken a penalty, he must inform you as soon as practicable otherwise he has given you wrong information by his silence. The only except to this annoucement of a penalty is when you have witnessed the penalty and he is obviously proceeding under a Rule. For example, if you observe your opponent hitting into a water hazard and he is taking a drop, he doesn't have to walk over to you and state the obvious penalty stroke.

This annoucement of a penalty applies even if your opponent is unaware that he has taken a penalty. For example, your opponent informs you on the putting green that he marked and lifted his ball in the woods for the purpose of identification. Although he was not aware that a ball may not be lifted for identification without your consent, he nevertheless loses the hole for giving wrong infomation as to the number of strokes taken.

Originally posted by spidey
....also, assume I give bad information to my opponent which is untrue, but I think it is true. eg. I hit my ball and it looks like its going OB. I look away in disgust, and don't see that it actually landed in bounds. My opponent asks me how many strokes I've taken. I count the OB and penalty and tell him the total. He opts to play conservatively to insure the hole. Can he call a penalty on me if we walk up and find my original ball in play?

You are only obligated to tell your opponent the number of strokes (which must include penalty strokes) you have taken. When your tee shot goes OB, you have taken one stroke. It is now your opponent's turn to play and he is entitled to know only that you have taken one stroke. When it is your turn play, you may look for your ball, play a provisional ball, or play another ball from the tee under stroke and distance. If you select the last option, you would THEN be playing your third stroke.

To clairfy this point further, you don't incur a penalty stroke for hitting your ball into a water hazard. You only incur a penalty stroke when you proceed under the water hazard Rule.

Originally posted by spidey
Also, in an area where you aren't entitled to look for a ball that may be lost, such as an environmental area, how does the OB or LB rule apply?

The Rules are applied exactly in the same manner. If you hit your tee shot into an ESA or OB, you are lying 1. When you proceed with your next shot, any penalties applicable to such procedure are incurred at that time.

Originally posted by spidey
It always seems that the guy you play your match with finds a way to apply a rule you've never heard of.

Many players are uncertain of the rights and procedures of claims.

For a claim to be valid, the claimant must indicate the facts he believes give rise to the claim and must also indicate that he wants the Rules of Golf applied. He must do both. For example, "I am making a claim because you grounded you club in the bunker" would be a valid claim. Saying "hmm, I am not sure if you can do that" does not qualify as a valid claim.

Any claim, if it is to be considered, must be made before any player in the match plays from the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the match, before all players in the match leave the putting green.

So, if you have a dispute with your opponent over the Rules (and no referee is present), you make a claim and proceed with the match. Once you leave the hole without making a claim, you lose your right to make a claim and the result of the hole stands.

There is one exception. A later claim may be considered if it is based on facts previously unknown to the player making the claim and the player making the claim had been given wrong information by an opponent.

For example, your opponent informs you on the 16th hole that during play of the 4th hole he substituted another ball because his ball was dirty. You may make a claim because you were unware of the action and he did not inform you of the penalty at that time.

[spidey]

Thanx Gary...

...so.....

posted by Gary
In match play, you are entitled to know the state of the match at any time.

posted by Gary
So, if you have a dispute with your opponent over the Rules (and no referee is present), you make a claim and proceed with the match.

So, if there is a dispute over a claim, then it's possible to finish the match without knowing the state of the match any time after the claim; until the referee or the committee makes a ruling.

Is it possible for the committee to declare that any dispute must be resolved by the players prior to proceeding with the next hole?

spidey

[Gary Hill]

Yes. The whole premise of match play is that you know the state of the match at all times. Unfortunatley, there are occasions when a doubt or dispute arises between the players and no referee is available within a reasonable time. Lodging a claim and continuing with the match is the only practicable solution.

Yes. If there is a dispute and a claim is made, then it is possible to finish the match without knowing the state of the match any time after the claim is made until the referee or the committee makes a ruling. The perfect solution would be to have the matter setttled immediately, but this is not always possible.

No. The committee may not, as a condition of the competition, require players to resolve disputes themselves before continuing the match. Such a condition would violate the players right to have an official ruling on the matter.