Starting the downswing

[Hank Hill]

Hi everyone.

I videotaped my swing and I noticed that I lead with my hands on the downswing. I undertand that you should lead with the lower body and allow the hands to 'natrually' fall down and the body turn will bring the club face back to the ball. I think his lack of timing is resulting in me pushing/push-slicing the ball. This is particularly prevelent with the long irons and woods. I am also losing a lot of distance (I can hit my 6 iron as far as my 5w). My weight transfer is fine and contact with he ball fine too (small ball first, hehe).

Any thoughts on drills or swing keys to help me lead with the lower body and not with the arms?

I have heard of focussing on bringing your belt buckle back to the ball when at the top of your swing. Does this work, or is it going to cause more problems by focusing on the ball rather than the target?

My swing problem is playable, the push-slices are almost never that severe but I would prefer to be able to hit the ball further and of course, closer to my intended landing area.

Cheers

[faldo]

ELS says that he shifts his entire weight front back to his front left foot before he even begins any portion of his downswing.
Sounds pretty extreme but maybe that's why he's the big easy???

Ciao,

[yun]

ELS says that he shifts his entire weight front back to his front left foot before he even begins any portion of his downswing.
Sounds pretty extreme but maybe that's why he's the big easy???

Ciao,

front back to his front foot? how the heck is that easy?

[faldo]

Sorry poor typing. He moves all his weight from the back foot where he had coiled it to the front foot before beginning any other part of his downswing.

Hope that's clearer???

[Deep Woods]

Sorry poor typing. He moves all his weight from the back foot where he had coiled it to the front foot before beginning any other part of his downswing.

Hope that's clearer???

For joe average, doesn't this tend to get the arms/hands falling behind in the swing...I've tried the above a lot, I just can't seem to do it without cutting the ball with an open face.

[BC MIST]

For joe average, doesn't this tend to get the arms/hands falling behind in the swing...I've tried the above a lot, I just can't seem to do it without cutting the ball with an open face.

From the above, if the arms/hands are falling behind, how can you cut the ball? Cutting is an outside swing path which is caused by the shoulders rotating out and around, too soon, not too late.

Some teachers teach: (1) move the body, the arms will fall into their correct position, while others teach, (2) move the arms and the body will naturally flow forwar din anticipation of the arms coming down. Regardless, the lower body will move first, no matter what you are thinking about.

The problem is the impulse to hit the ball causing the upper body, right shoulder, right forearm, to move outside the desireable path.

To hit the ball well, straight or draw, you must come into the ball from the inside. To do that you must train the arms to move downward at the start of the downswing, rather than just back to the ball. Relying on the timing of moving the lower body first, hoping that this move will drop the arms into the slot, just does not work. Sure, this motion is taught, most most teaching is based on perception and feeling.

Recently, I made a post about how to achieve this motion and made reference to the ideas of Paul Bertholy and John Dunnigan. Try them. They work.

[Andru]

From the above, if the arms/hands are falling behind, how can you cut the ball? Cutting is an outside swing path which is caused by the shoulders rotating out and around, too soon, not too late.

That's not true you can approach the ball from the inside and have the club face open at separation and create a nice cut/fade shot. Which could be ideal for some people.

[broken27]

That's not true you can approach the ball from the inside and have the club face open at separation and create a nice cut/fade shot.

Just curious, and certainly no expert, but wouldn't an open clubface in this situation create a "push" shot on an inside swing plane?

Again, I don't really know, but I have a similar problem with my swing as the original post.

Dan

[Deep Woods]

From the above, if the arms/hands are falling behind, how can you cut the ball? Cutting is an outside swing path which is caused by the shoulders rotating out and around, too soon, not too late.

Sorry, cut was the wrong term. I do tend to let the arms fall, and do achieve an inside out path...BUT, what I notice is if my body gets ahead of me (ie: my arms fall behind), I cannot "flip" my wrists fast enough (ie: its too late), and the club comes into the ball with an open face, sometimes very open, and the ball zings off to the right...if its a little open, its a push that doesn't go far.

I tend to let my arms falling to initiate my swing, and all I'm saying is I've tried (and tried again) initiating with my lower body, it just doesn't seem to work for me.

I will review that instruction and try it, as I'm going to driving range today.

[yun]

actually, I used to have this problem with the club face cutting across the ball from an inside to out path. I still do it sometimes. If this happens, you might want to try and restrict the swaying of your hips in the down swing. One of my swing thoughts is that my left hip should never pass the inside of the left heel (i'm a righty) on the down swing. The tricky part is to not reverse pivot while you try this. I found taht the helped me alot. My 2 cents (which is probably worth about 2 pesos)

Yun

[BC MIST]

That's not true you can approach the ball from the inside and have the club face open at separation and create a nice cut/fade shot. Which could be ideal for some people.

A cut shot refers to the club head cutting across the intended line of flight, from the outside, with the face open, relative the outside swing path. While you can "fade" the ball with the club head approaching from the inside(push/fade or straight/fade) you cannot obviously cut the ball with an inside path because these paths are opposites.

Ben Hogan approached the ball from the inside and had a clubface that was fractionally open at separation, resulting in a ball flight that would go straight and then subtly drop to the right.

I used to have this problem with the club face cutting across the ball from an inside to out path. Impossible! Call the inside out path a "push across," but it is not a cut across. A cut shot starts left of target line and moves back to or past the target line.

Consulting BC Mist's Dictionary of Golf Terms, a draw is a shot that starts right of target line and moves back to the target line. Every other movement of the ball this way is a hook. Therefore, by simple logic, a fade is a shot that starts left of target line and moves back to target line. Every other movement of the ball this way is really a slice.

Semantics you say, but using the correct terminology makes communication a lot easier.

[el tigre]

Some teachers teach: (1) move the body, the arms will fall into their correct position, while others teach, (2) move the arms and the body will naturally flow forward in anticipation of the arms coming down. Regardless, the lower body will move first, no matter what you are thinking about.

The problem is the impulse to hit the ball causing the upper body, right shoulder, right forearm, to move outside the desireable path.

To hit the ball well, straight or draw, you must come into the ball from the inside. To do that you must train the arms to move downward at the start of the downswing, rather than just back to the ball. Relying on the timing of moving the lower body first, hoping that this move will drop the arms into the slot, just does not work.

I think you've summarized the difficulties most people have with the transition very well. If the problem is your "hit" impulse bringing your upper body into the downswing too early (which is usually the case), then you need to train your arms to move down first.

However, the "move the body" training is useful for someone who has a weight shift problem and is ending up with a reverse pivot. And if you overdo the "move the arms down" training, you could actually end up doing a reverse pivot - so it is important to remember to bump the hips as well. But I agree that you need to think "move the arms down" first, even if that is not what actually happens.

[el tigre]

Any thoughts on drills or swing keys to help me lead with the lower body and not with the arms?

I have heard of focussing on bringing your belt buckle back to the ball when at the top of your swing. Does this work, or is it going to cause more problems by focusing on the ball rather than the target?

I think you first need to establish whether or not your arms are dropping down and you are approaching the ball on a inside-out path.

If not, then this is a classic over-the-top move and the advice that BC MIST has outlined will help. If your arms are dropping down so you have an inside path but you are still pushing it right, then your lower body is hanging back and causing an open clubface at impact. Then the "belt buckle first" focus is good advice, although I prefer another swing thought that has been attributed to actress Tea Leoni (who apparently is a very good golfer): "Hit it with your d**k!"

[Deep Woods]

"Hit it with your d**k!"

I would, but I'd hate to break the shaft.

[Thom Panikorn]

Hi everyone.

I videotaped my swing and I noticed that I lead with my hands on the downswing. I undertand that you should lead with the lower body and allow the hands to 'natrually' fall down and the body turn will bring the club face back to the ball. I think his lack of timing is resulting in me pushing/push-slicing the ball. This is particularly prevelent with the long irons and woods. I am also losing a lot of distance (I can hit my 6 iron as far as my 5w). My weight transfer is fine and contact with he ball fine too (small ball first, hehe).

Any thoughts on drills or swing keys to help me lead with the lower body and not with the arms?

I have heard of focussing on bringing your belt buckle back to the ball when at the top of your swing. Does this work, or is it going to cause more problems by focusing on the ball rather than the target?

My swing problem is playable, the push-slices are almost never that severe but I would prefer to be able to hit the ball further and of course, closer to my intended landing area.

Cheers

The sequence(timing) of the swing is hands-arms-shoulders-hips-(front)leg on the back swing and a reverse on the downswing...leg-hips-shoulders-arms-hands-clubs. If you have problem with the sequence the best thing to do is "to pause" at the top of your backswing for a split of a second to give yourself time to start the reverse movement. Most of us would rush back with the hands and arms and end up ruining all the effort we put in on the beuatiful backswing! Imagine you ty the clubhead at the end of a rope(your arms and hands) and you swing it back to the end. If you don't pause before you turn back, the rope would collapse and drop the clubhead and you have no way of getting it back to hit anything. I know that was an extreme example but the idea of sequence is valid. The little ball is going no where you don't have to rush back to hit it. When you do the drill, start with a short iron and with half swing until you get the idea of "the order of the movement". And whenever you feel you are out of rythm, practice with chip or pitch shots because they don't require a lot of moving parts,mostly arms and hands, then move on to the half swing which you would require some lower body action. The full swing is just the extension of that. I like warming up before the round with short pitch shots because it helps with your sequence(rythm). I can check all my moving parts and see whether I am in sync, and if not I can tell which part(or parts) is off and I will pay more attendtion on that during the first few holes. And there will be the day(days) when every part is off and you have no way of changing it, then just enjoy the walk and the view or start drinking! and have fun anyway. Nothing you can do about it.

Hope that help.

TP

[InTheHunt]

Very interesting information but i see how golf can be both confusing and contradictory.I have always thought that the best way to begin the backswing was the one piece takeaway for about the first 3 feet until about 8 o'clock position ,assuming ball is 6 o'oclock.Also, Nick Price in his book states that it is imperative that you start the swing with the shoulders since this is an easier plane to control vs. the shaft plane.What are your opinions on this idea.

[Marmotte]

Very interesting information but i see how golf can be both confusing and contradictory.....

Either it is a practice not supportedby the law of physics, or a theory that is looking for creative ways of implementation. When all is said and tried, we may discover that Golf is an art that must be lived.

[Andru]

Either it is a practice not supportedby the law of physics, or a theory that is looking for creative ways of implementation. When all is said and tried, we may discover that Golf is an art that must be lived.

Haaaaaaaaaaaa... llelu..jah

Haaaaaaaaaaaa... llelu..jah

Hallelujah

Hallelujah

Halleeee.luuUU..JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!

Well Said!!!

[Hank Hill]

Thanks for all the help guys. I've tried out some of your advice on the range and i'm a lot straighter, with the occasional fade!

Now if I could just get a bit more distance......

[Deep Woods]

Thanks for all the help guys. I've tried out some of your advice on the range and i'm a lot straighter, with the occasional fade!

Now if I could just get a bit more distance......

Best golf quote I've ever heard: the more I practice, the luckier I get.