Blackberry while golfing

[sillywilly]

1. can I go to the course website and check out the layout of the course??
2. If your phone is able to, can you use google earth on your phone in real time?
3. can you check live weather reports in your area for temperature, humidity, wind

IF the answer to #3 is no, why are you allowed to use intelligolf on your blackberry when it is clearly able to break the rules but you aren't allowed to use a pinseeker 1500 w/slope with the slope off, isn't it the same thing?

[LobWedge]

Per the OVGA...

Distance measuring devices – A player may obtain distance information by using a device that measures distance only. If, during a stipulated round, or extension of a stipulated round, a player uses a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc.), the player is in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification, regardless of whether any such additional function is actually used. Penalty for Breach of this local rule : Disqualification

In other words, the device must be designed to provide distance data only, and nothing else.

Devices like Blackberries and iPhones have the capability to support other applications/features that may provide the player with additional real-time information that is not permitted, so they are not allowed.

Oh yeah... please don't surf the web while golfing...

[Hacker]

1. can I go to the course website and check out the layout of the course??
2. If your phone is able to, can you use google earth on your phone in real time?
3. can you check live weather reports in your area for temperature, humidity, wind

IF the answer to #3 is no, why are you allowed to use intelligolf on your blackberry when it is clearly able to break the rules but you aren't allowed to use a pinseeker 1500 w/slope with the slope off, isn't it the same thing?

I'll regret ever posting this but.........That is actually a good and valid question. Especially with the number of folks who use devices like blackberries, smartphones and PDAs which are capable of measuring so much more than just distance.

[LobWedge]

Where does it say that you can use Intelligolf?

There's no claim on the Intelligolf website that their product complies with USGA/R&A rules. The software may very well comply, but the devices that are designed to run the software do not.

Sometimes reading between the lines is required.

[jeffc]

Oh yeah... please don't surf the web while golfing...

not even if its ottawagolf.com?

[jvincent]

I think what is confusing a lot of people is the validity of a measuring device for "casual" rounds vs. competitive tournament rounds.

The USGA/R&A ruled a few years ago that rounds where measuring devices were used were still allowable for handicap purposes. IIRC this was before they allowed the local rule that said they could be used in competition. The local rule for competition is pretty specific about what can be used.

[Kiwi battler]

My cell phone has a thermometer and compass ...oops

[Kilroy]

designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc.),

Lobbie, I'm not sure about that. Have smartphomes been specifically declared prohibited somewhere or is this your opinion? Should anyone carying a phone with web surfing capability be disqualified?

I'd argue that Smartphones are not designed to guage or measure gradient, wind or temperature. Also online weather reports are not in real time. The wind reading from an hour ago at the Ottawa airport in isn't going to help the player golfing miles away very much. What about radios which give weather reports? They are not measuring devices either.

[jvincent]

designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc.),

Lobbie, I'm not sure about that. Have smartphomes been specifically declared prohibited somewhere or is this your opinion? Should anyone carying a phone with web surfing capability be disqualified?

Cell phones are grounds for DQ in the Citizen.

[Kilroy]

Is it because of the internet or because of the potential ring?

[sebber]

i normally use my blackberry with Green Finder installed when playing new courses, would not do it in a tournament but for a fun filled sunday round on a new course it saves me from losing balls in unknown lakes and also saves me from pacing distances from sprinkler head to sprinkler head!

[LobWedge]

designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc.),

Lobbie, I'm not sure about that. Have smartphomes been specifically declared prohibited somewhere or is this your opinion? Should anyone carying a phone with web surfing capability be disqualified?

I'd argue that Smartphones are not designed to guage or measure gradient, wind or temperature. Also online weather reports are not in real time. The wind reading from an hour ago at the Ottawa airport in isn't going to help the player golfing miles away very much. What about radios which give weather reports? They are not measuring devices either.

Apple has an app for the iPhone that's a water bubble level. An actual carpenter's level! Somewhere out there are apps for pretty much everything. Heck, you can call someone at Environment Canada to get real-time wind speed. If that's not enough to declare them illegal, I don't know what is. It's all about the potential of the device. Same reasoning for declaring range finders that have slope, wind, etc illegal. You may be able to turn off those functions, but the potential is still there, and there's no way to prove thier use otherwise.

[Kilroy]

Honestly I feel you are taking that too far. Calling the airport or looking at a website is not measuring anything. I don't know of any smartphone app that measures the elevation of the green from a distance or wind speed. I'll agree that the odd phone may have a thermometer and they shouldn't be used since the device is measuring the temp itself.

Smartphones that do not have the capability to measure these things should be OK IMHO.

[Kilroy]

Also, GPS data does include elevation, but it's not displayed by the golf apps. By your logic they too shouldn't be used, since elevation could be displayed by an app if it were written to do so. Despite the fact that none is available that we know of.

[Kilroy]

Well, you can use your smartphone. Just don't look up the current weather.

14-3/16 Use of Electronic Devices
As provided in the Etiquette Section, players should ensure that any electronic device taken onto the course does not distract other players.
The use of an electronic device such as a mobile phone, hand-held computer, calculator, television or radio is not itself a breach of Rule 14-3. For example, the following uses of an electronic device during a stipulated round are not a breach of the Rules:
• Using the device for matters unrelated to golf (e.g., to call home);
• Using the device to access information on advice-related matters that were published prior to the start of the player’s round (e.g., an electronic yardage book, swing tips); or
• Using the device to obtain information related to the competition being played (e.g., the leader board or projected “cut”).

However, examples of uses of an electronic device during a stipulated round that are a breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification, include:
• Using the device (e.g., a television or radio) to watch or listen to a broadcast of the competition being played;
• Using the device to ask for or give advice in breach of Rule 8-1 (e.g., calling a swing coach at home); or
• Using the device to access information on advice-related matters that were not published prior to the start of his round (e.g., analysis of strokes made during that round).

[LobWedge]

I believe you'll see that further clarified in the next Rule year.

[AAA]

The USGA/R&A ruled a few years ago that rounds where measuring devices were used were still allowable for handicap purposes.

Odd. The R&A have nothing at all to do with handicaps.

[Kilroy]

I believe you'll see that further clarified in the next Rule year.

Well, the decision is pretty clear to me.

[jeffc]

You may be able to turn off those functions, but the potential is still there, and there's no way to prove thier use otherwise.

Which is interesting since golf is referred to as a game of honour. If we trust that rules will be called on oneself since there are no referees, shouldn't we apply that same logic to these devices?

[Hacker]

I think that we have a contradiction here:

14-3/16 Use of Electronic Devices
As provided in the Etiquette Section, players should ensure that any electronic device taken onto the course does not distract other players.
The use of an electronic device such as a mobile phone, hand-held computer, calculator, television or radio is not itself a breach of Rule 14-3. For example, the following uses of an electronic device during a stipulated round are not a breach of the Rules:
• Using the device for matters unrelated to golf (e.g., to call home);
• Using the device to access information on advice-related matters that were published prior to the start of the player’s round (e.g., an electronic yardage book, swing tips); or
• Using the device to obtain information related to the competition being played (e.g., the leader board or projected “cut”).

However, examples of uses of an electronic device during a stipulated round that are a breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification, include:
• Using the device (e.g., a television or radio) to watch or listen to a broadcast of the competition being played;
• Using the device to ask for or give advice in breach of Rule 8-1 (e.g., calling a swing coach at home); or
• Using the device to access information on advice-related matters that were not published prior to the start of his round (e.g., analysis of strokes made during that round).

Clearly a mobile phone or hand-held computer COULD be used to contravene Rule 14-3 but so long as they are NOT used for that purpose no rule is broken..........why is it then that a range finder capable of calculating slope is illegal regardless of whether that feature is used or not.

Clearly there is an inconsistency here.

What I find interesting is how in the past everyone was very cut and dried on the slope enabled range finders being illegal, but now some are trying to argue that devices like smartphones and palm pilots are OK when they obviously could be used to contravene the rules.

[jvincent]

Odd. The R&A have nothing at all to do with handicaps.

It might have been a USGA specific thing then.

[jvincent]

Is it because of the internet or because of the potential ring?

No idea. It could be either.

[LobWedge]

I think that we have a contradiction here:

14-3/16 Use of Electronic Devices
As provided in the Etiquette Section, players should ensure that any electronic device taken onto the course does not distract other players.
The use of an electronic device such as a mobile phone, hand-held computer, calculator, television or radio is not itself a breach of Rule 14-3. For example, the following uses of an electronic device during a stipulated round are not a breach of the Rules:
• Using the device for matters unrelated to golf (e.g., to call home);
• Using the device to access information on advice-related matters that were published prior to the start of the player’s round (e.g., an electronic yardage book, swing tips); or
• Using the device to obtain information related to the competition being played (e.g., the leader board or projected “cut”).

However, examples of uses of an electronic device during a stipulated round that are a breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification, include:
• Using the device (e.g., a television or radio) to watch or listen to a broadcast of the competition being played;
• Using the device to ask for or give advice in breach of Rule 8-1 (e.g., calling a swing coach at home); or
• Using the device to access information on advice-related matters that were not published prior to the start of his round (e.g., analysis of strokes made during that round).

Clearly a mobile phone or hand-held computer COULD be used to contravene Rule 14-3 but so long as they are NOT used for that purpose no rule is broken..........why is it then that a range finder capable of calculating slope is illegal regardless of whether that feature is used or not.

Clearly there is an inconsistency here.

What I find interesting is how in the past everyone was very cut and dried on the slope enabled range finders being illegal, but now some are trying to argue that devices like smartphones and palm pilots are OK when they obviously could be used to contravene the rules.

This is one of those situations where the technology is progressing faster than the rules. It's almost impossible to keep up. At the time this rule was updated, it's likely that "smartphones" weren't around.

[Kilroy]

They addressed accessing real time information, such as live scoring, so I do believe they covered modern smartphone capability.

[Hacker]

This is one of those situations where the technology is progressing faster than the rules. It's almost impossible to keep up. At the time this rule was updated, it's likely that "smartphones" weren't around.

I was thinking the same thing - makes sense

[Hacker]

They addressed accessing real time information, such as live scoring, so I do believe they covered modern smartphone capability.

Live scoring is but one of a number of possible capabilities that a smartphone could have. I have an app on my iphone that uses the internal gyroscope to help read the slope on a green......I don't think it is possible to go app by app. I think they have to stick with the "devices that are capable of measuring distance only" kind of statement.

That or forget about trying to quell the use of technology all together......after all, even if you know the exact distance to the flag after factoring in distance, temperature, humidity, wind speed, adrenalin levels etc. you still have to swing the club yourself - but I think that we all know that is too far a leap for the "lads" who look after the rulebook

[Kilroy]

Golf is a game of honour and there are lots of ways to cheat. I could use a water bottle as a level to check the green. That is prohibited, but I am allowed to have a bottle of water on the course with me.

We could go on and on...

[jeffc]

Golf is a game of honour and there are lots of ways to cheat. I could use a water bottle as a level to check the green. That is prohibited, but I am allowed to have a bottle of water on the course with me.

We could go on and on...

my point exactly. if it is game of honour, why outlaw rangefinders with slope?

[sillywilly]

my point exactly. if it is game of honour, why outlaw rangefinders with slope?

that was the point I was trying to make with this thread.

I agree golf is a game of honor and there are many ways to cheap. Changing the specs of your club during the round, using the Computer device to cheat... why ban a range finder that has the option to turn slope off.

[Hacker]

Golf is a game of honour and there are lots of ways to cheat. I could use a water bottle as a level to check the green. That is prohibited, but I am allowed to have a bottle of water on the course with me.

We could go on and on...

We could indeed, what I find interesting is how in this case I'm defending the "letter of the rule" as opposed to a more liberal interpretation of it which is normally the case by me.....