Do you think this is fair?

[Indio]

So what exactly should the rule be ?

I'm with Donny on this one.... if your in the rough and you get a free lift, it should have to be dropped in the rough, not back in they fairway.

[fundonny]

If it were up to me I wouldn't allow a player to drop from the rough to the fairway, simple as that. It's not just a slight improvement, that's a drastic improvement to your lie when you failed to make the shot in the first place.

[fundonny]

I'm with Donny on this one.... if your in the rough and you get a free lift, it should have to be dropped in the rough, not back in they fairway.

Thanks Bob, the cheque is in the mail!

[Indio]

Thanks Bob, the cheque is in the mail!

I thought you said it would be sent via EFT

[jonf]

Stenson wasn't given a break though. He played his next shot according to the rules. It's the same as if you hit it in the middle of the fairway and have to stand on a drain or sprinkler head. You get to take relief if you want..

He played according to the rules, but the rules gave him a break. That much is fairly obvious. Very similar to the occasion when Tiger had 12 fans move a massive rock out of his way. Within the rules, but it's a break, and not really within the spirit of the game. A player should be rewarded for a good shot, and punished for a bad shot, not the other way around.

[jonf]

I'm not taking it personally at all.

The point you seem to be trying to make is that it's somehow unfair for somebody to play by the rules when it results in an advantageous result.

The fact is that sometimes the rules give you and advantage and other times they don't. When and where it happens is entirely random.

There is a HUGE difference between sayint that it is unfair to play by the rules, and saying that the rules are unfair. Nobody is accusing Stenson of doing anything wrong or unethical or unfair, but the rules should prevent him from gaining an advantage in this situation.

[jvincent]

Nobody is accusing Stenson of doing anything wrong or unethical or unfair, but the rules should prevent him from gaining an advantage in this situation.

By the same logic the rules should also never allow him to be at a disadvantage in any situation.

[fundonny]

By the same logic the rules should also never allow him to be at a disadvantage in any situation.

Lost me on that one.

[Kilroy]

Is it fair when the nearest point of relief from an immovable obstruction is in a bush?

That's pretty much the same situation and it happens all the time.

[jvincent]

Lost me on that one.

He said the rules should prevent him from gaining an advantage.

So, by extension the rules should also prevent him from being placed at a disadvantage.

[Golfbum]

I think it was on the 18th yesterday that Henrik Stenson drove his ball through the fairway into the rough, but it went into a drainage grate or something. So he gets free relief, but one club length gave him a perfect lie right in the fairway. If I was a fellow competitor battling for such an important title, I'd be annoyed that he gets rewarded for a sub-par (no pun intended) drive. He ended up with a great shot at birdie but blew the short putt.

This is within the rules of course, but I don't think it's fair personally. I don't think you should be able to drastically improve your lie when getting relief.

What goes around comes around. Everyone is playing under the same set of rules.

I was watching a Euro tournament a few years ago. On a Par 5 there was water right beside the green. Literally less than two yards from the edge of the green. A player hit it in the water on his 2nd shot. he got a two club length drop which put him on the green. Putting for birdie and made the putt.

Is it fair? Does not matter, it is in the rules. You could be in the same spot some day and will use the rule to your advantage.

[jonf]

He said the rules should prevent him from gaining an advantage.

So, by extension the rules should also prevent him from being placed at a disadvantage.

Exactly, assuming that disadvantage is no fault of his own. Which is why the Payne Stewart divot example is so useful. He was put at a disadvantage as a result of a perfectly placed drive...that is unfair. Stenson, was put in advantageous position due to a poorly struck drive....that is unfair.

Obviously luck is a part of the game. A drive can bounce off a tree into the fairway etc. We're not asking for the rules to 'undo' lucky breaks like hitting a tree, or give a player an extra 30 yards on his drive because he got stuck in a puddle in the middle of the fairway. But, if a situation arises where a player is having his position improved by the rules despite a poor shot, that is unjust. The distinction, in my books is that in one situation the golf course is dictating a players luck, whereas in another, it is the rules.

Anyway, I agree with Donny. I think if this was not a rules question, but simply an "is this really fair" question, most would argue that no, it is not fair. But because saying that implies some fault in the rules of the game, nobody is going to agree. Golf is perfect, change is bad.

[Indio]

Well said Jon.... especially the last sentence

[Kilroy]

I thought the question was "Do you think this is fair? "

[jonf]

What goes around comes around. Everyone is playing under the same set of rules.

I was watching a Euro tournament a few years ago. On a Par 5 there was water right beside the green. Literally less than two yards from the edge of the green. A player hit it in the water on his 2nd shot. he got a two club length drop which put him on the green. Putting for birdie and made the putt.

Is it fair? Does not matter, it is in the rules. You could be in the same spot some day and will use the rule to your advantage.

Okay, it is in the rules so it doesn't matter if it's fair. Let's reframe the question: If you were writing the rules of golf from scratch, would you provide players with a rule that allowed them a free drop to improve a position which they entered into through nobody's fault but their own? That is the question here.

In a legal situation, rulings often come down to the intent of the law. If we use that principle here, its pretty clear that the advantage Stenson gained was NOT the original intent of the law. The intent was to provide a player with relief from a situation entered into through no fault of their own. So, dropping from a sprinkler head on the fairway, into the fairway, is within the original intent of the law. Likewise, dropping from a sprinkler head in the rough into the rough is within the original intent of the law. However, dropping from a sprinkler head that is within rough, and dropping into the fairway, is not within the intent of the law. It is improving the player's position into one where they could not reasonably have expected to be as a result of their shot.

[jonf]

I thought the question was "Do you think this is fair? "

It is, but it's not the question people are answering.

[jvincent]

Okay, it is in the rules so it doesn't matter if it's fair. Let's reframe the question: If you were writing the rules of golf from scratch, would you provide players with a rule that allowed them a free drop to improve a position which they entered into through nobody's fault but their own? That is the question here.

If you ask me a lot of the complexity with the current rules comes from them trying to be "fair".

Sometimes you get free relief, other times you don't, etc.

Trying to make the rules even more fair would just make them more complicated.

[gbower]

So if you're in some casual water in the rough with a tree 10' in front of you and your nearest point of relief gets you out from behind the tree is this fair? This thing could go on forever. The rules are there and some may not seem fair to some but I'm sure they balance out over a number of rounds.

[LobWedge]

To answer the original question, yes I do think it's fair because that situation would apply to anyone that found themselves in the same spot, not just Stenson.

This may prove useful...

24-2b/8 Dropping from Rough to Fairway in Obtaining Relief from Obstruction
Q. A player whose ball lies in the rough close to the fairway is entitled to relief from an immovable obstruction. In obtaining relief under Rule 24-2b(i), may the player drop the ball on the fairway?
A. Yes. There is no distinction in the Rules between fairway and rough; both are covered by the term “through the green.”

[justsomeguy]

The point is that Stenson was given a huge break while Payne was at a huge disadvantage. Sure they can handle a sand filled divot, but accuracy and spin are affected in a negative way. Wouldn't you agree? This was Pinehurst, one of the closing holes, on a Sunday, in the final group if I remember correctly.

First of all, the drains at Sawgrass are not in the DEEP rough - they are just off the fairway in the first cut (that's why he was able to drop in the fairway in the first place). The first cut at Sawgrass is not that big a deal to these guys. To say he was given a "huge" break is greatly exaggerating the situation. I highly doubt his score on the hole would have been any different if he dropped in the first cut.

Secondly, golf is not fair. It never was and it never will be. Sometimes you get good breaks and other times you get bad breaks. To try and legislate complete "fairness" in a golf is a futile exercise - if for no other reason than the definition of "fairness" is completely subjective.

Stenson took the relief that was available to him. Payne Stewart would have (and probably has) done the EXACT same thing.

[fundonny]

Again, no one is faulting or blaming Stenson for anything. And I'm sorry but when the ball disappears, then the rough is deep enough to matter and I saw plenty of balls vanish in the first cut of rough during the four days. Are you implying that there is no difference between rough and fairway???

[Kilroy]

Not according to the rules.

A. Yes. There is no distinction in the Rules between fairway and rough; both are covered by the term “through the green.”

[BC MIST]

The idea that if one hits the ball in the "fairway" one should get a perfect lie and if it's not perfect (in a divot) one should be able to move it, is ludicrous. Call it something else, but it's not GOLF.

Part of the character of the game is that we get bad breaks from good shots and good breaks from bad shots and all of this is unpredictable. The element of luck which is way out of proportion in golf, is what makes the game so great. But, "the more I practice, the luckier I get." Too many graduates from the Sergio Garcia school of "why do I get all the bad breaks?".

[justsomeguy]

Again, no one is faulting or blaming Stenson for anything. And I'm sorry but when the ball disappears, then the rough is deep enough to matter and I saw plenty of balls vanish in the first cut of rough during the four days. Are you implying that there is no difference between rough and fairway???

The ball disappeared because the drain is naturally below the level of the surrounding grass. Guys were playing fairway woods and hybrids out of the first cut all weekend. If the rough was deep enough to matter, Stenson could have played it off the drain anyway...

...and you're missing the point. The rules are the same for everyone, and everyone was getting relief from drains all weekend. Stenson caught a good break - in his next round he might catch a bad break. C'est la vie.

[justsomeguy]

Not according to the rules.

A. Yes. There is no distinction in the Rules between fairway and rough; both are covered by the term “through the green.”

I don't think that statement is quite correct. Rule 25 certainly makes a distinction:

25-2 Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

Off the top of my head that and some suggested Local Rules are the only references I can remember - but the concept DOES exist the Rules.

[LobWedge]

I don't think that statement is quite correct. Rule 25 certainly makes a distinction:

25-2 Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

Off the top of my head that and some suggested Local Rules are the only references I can remember - but the concept DOES exist the Rules.

The term "fairway" is not defined in the rules. The phrase "fairway height" is used as a measuring stick to define the maximum length of the grass where a player can get relief from an embedded ball.

As is stated by the USGA/R&A in the answer to Dec. 24-2b/8, "There is no distinction in the Rules between fairway and rough."

This is the operative term...


Through the Green
"Through the green" is the whole area of the course except:

a. The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played; and
b. All hazards on the course.

[Golfbum]

It is, but it's not the question people are answering.

I answered the question with "What goes around, comes around"

156 guys in the field and they all play by the same set of rules.

You get a free drop, I get a free drop. Two club lengths no closer to the hole.

The ruling I found unfair was when Woods had 12 fans move the "Loose impediment" in the desert. I would be willing to bet that would never happen to another player.

Was it Henrik's fault that his ball came to rest in a drain cover?

[fundonny]

No but it was Henrik's fault he drove it into the rough so he should have, in my opinion, had to have dropped it in the same rough. But heaven forbid common sense would dictate....

[gbower]

You just won't accept the rules the way they are will you, fair or unfair.

[Kilroy]

You get a free drop, I get a free drop. Two club lengths no closer to the hole.

Free relief = 1 clublength
When a penalty is involved it's 2 clublengths.