Do you think this is fair?

[fundonny]

I think it was on the 18th yesterday that Henrik Stenson drove his ball through the fairway into the rough, but it went into a drainage grate or something. So he gets free relief, but one club length gave him a perfect lie right in the fairway. If I was a fellow competitor battling for such an important title, I'd be annoyed that he gets rewarded for a sub-par (no pun intended) drive. He ended up with a great shot at birdie but blew the short putt.

This is within the rules of course, but I don't think it's fair personally. I don't think you should be able to drastically improve your lie when getting relief.

[gbower]

That's the good thing as when you know the rules you can sometimes use them to your advantage. It's a good reason to read up on them. Be careful though as sometimes that drop will get you into the garbage too so look at your options carefully before touching your ball.

[mpare]

You have a point, but you're not always assured that when taking relief your lie will be improved. For example, I was once playing in a tournament when my ball came to rest on a gravel cart path. I was entitled to relief, but the area in which I would have had to drop was deep, wet rough. I didn't take the drop. Instead, I played off the cart path. My iron was scratched in the process, but that's the price it pays for being a golf club.

I think it was on the 18th yesterday that Henrik Stenson drove his ball through the fairway into the rough, but it went into a drainage grate or something. So he gets free relief, but one club length gave him a perfect lie right in the fairway. If I was a fellow competitor battling for such an important title, I'd be annoyed that he gets rewarded for a sub-par (no pun intended) drive. He ended up with a great shot at birdie but blew the short putt.

This is within the rules of course, but I don't think it's fair personally. I don't think you should be able to drastically improve your lie when getting relief.

[Kilroy]

There are many more rules that people feel are overly punnishing, than those that are felt to be overly forgiving.

[fundonny]

If it was the 18th on Sunday and it affected the outcome and I was on the losing end because of it... Man I'd be steeming. Just brings me back to the 1998 US Open when Payne Stewart hit a perfect drive only to have it land in a divot repaired with that green seed/sand. He ended up losing a close one to Lee Janzen, after having ZERO chance of hitting it close to the pin from that lie. He should have received free relief in my opinion.

[BC MIST]

Just brings me back to the 1998 US Open when Payne Stewart hit a perfect drive only to have it land in a divot repaired with that green seed/sand. He ended up losing a close one to Lee Janzen, after having ZERO chance of hitting it close to the pin from that lie. He should have received free relief in my opinion.

In your first post you object to a player getting a perfect lie because he hit his ball into a lousy one but then you want a player to get a perfect lie for the exact same reason.

[jonf]

You're forgetting, Donny. Golf's rules aren't designed to make sense. They're designed to baffle us at every turn.

[Hacker]

In your first post you object to a player getting a perfect lie because he hit his ball into a lousy one but then you want a player to get a perfect lie for the exact same reason.

I'll have to respectfully disagree BC Mist. In the Payne Stewart example the rules "penalized" him even though he hit a perfect drive into the fairway. In Donny's original example the rules were used to prove a perfect lie after a poor drive that missed the fairway......apples and oranges IMO

[Kilroy]

There is no distinction in this between fairway and rough, only hazard & green.

b. Relief
Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction as follows:

(i) Through the Green:If the ball lies through the green, the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids interference by the immovable obstruction and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

[fundonny]

[quote=BC MIST;304512]In your first post you object to a player getting a perfect lie because he hit his ball into a lousy one but then you want a player to get a perfect lie for the exact same reason. [/quoto

Maybe I wasn't clear. Payne hit a PERFECT drive. But because the divots were repaired with sand/seed in the middle of the fairway, he was penalized. The sand/seed actually stopped the ball's forward momentum as well, had it not been repaired the ball may have hopped to a cleaner spot next to it, or at least he would have had solid ground if it stayed in an unrepaired divot. Instead it was like hitting out of a fairway bunker.

[jvincent]

IMHO, any touring pro should be able to handle a sandfilled divot.

[fundonny]

IMHO, any touring pro should be able to handle a sandfilled divot.

The point is that Stenson was given a huge break while Payne was at a huge disadvantage. Sure they can handle a sand filled divot, but accuracy and spin are affected in a negative way. Wouldn't you agree? This was Pinehurst, one of the closing holes, on a Sunday, in the final group if I remember correctly.

[fundonny]

Sorry, Pinehust was 1999 when he won, not 1998. 1998 was Olympic Club.

[fundonny]

Stewart led after each of the first three rounds but finally gave up the top spot when he made bogeys on Nos. 12 and 13, the first when he had the bad luck to drive into a sand-filled divot, the second when he couldn't get up and down from the thick greenside rough.
"It was the first fairway I had hit in a while and sure enough I was in a bunker," Stewart said about the sand-filled divot".


Sigh, memories of my fallen idol. Brings a tear to my eye. He lost by a stroke to Janzen.

[jvincent]

The point is that Stenson was given a huge break while Payne was at a huge disadvantage. Sure they can handle a sand filled divot, but accuracy and spin are affected in a negative way. Wouldn't you agree?

Stenson wasn't given a break though. He played his next shot according to the rules. It's the same as if you hit it in the middle of the fairway and have to stand on a drain or sprinkler head. You get to take relief if you want.

As far as the sand filled divot being a big deal this is one of the things that the announcers like to play up as being a huge deal like a lot of the other "impossibly tough" shots the pros face every week. A sand filled divot from the fairways is a piece of cake. You've got stable footing and if you hit it a little fat you'll actually be better off than if you were on turf.

[AAA]

[quote=fundonny;304470]
This is within the rules of course, but I don't think it's fair personally.quote]

I can't see which rule says golf or life is fair.

I slice a ball, it ricochets off a tree into the fairway.
You slice a ball, it ricochets off a tree into the jungle.

You may not agree but it seems fair enough to me.

[fundonny]

Just because it was in the rules doesn't mean it wasn't a lucky break. I know it's the rules but I think it's ridiculous, especially in such a competitive game of inches. Going from deep rough to pristine fairway, how can you say that's not a break?

[fundonny]

I see that, but that's beyond anyone's control, the tree is there and the ball will bounce the way it bounces. Stenson's was an act of man, a rule in which he can go from being in trouble to being absolutely perfect. He should have had relief of course, but it's wrong to allow him to improve his lie in that fashion.

[quote=AAA;304529]

This is within the rules of course, but I don't think it's fair personally.quote]

I can't see which rule says golf or life is fair.

I slice a ball, it ricochets off a tree into the fairway.
You slice a ball, it ricochets off a tree into the jungle.

You may not agree but it seems fair enough to me.

[jvincent]

In the sense that his outcome from using the rules gave him and advantage, then yes, he got a break.

But as BC pointed out, knowing the rules is making your own breaks.

[gbower]

I think some of you should just keep playing at golf-o-max where you always have the perfect lie. Oh darn forgot might get a bad bounce off the screen.

[Indio]

Oh Donny, are you not going to learn that you will never win in this thread that is so guarded by the rules gate keepers. They are the experts and I tip my cap to them for taking their time to learn the rules and TRY to interpret them to the best of their ability (even if they don't believe they are fair at times they will seldome admit it).

Our role is to keep paying to play, and for those that are members and want to establish a handicap, to keep paying a portion of your dues to keep those regal institutions that make/amend/update to the 21st century, alive

[fundonny]

Some of you really seem to take it personally when someone questions the biblical rules of golf. Yes, I know the rule. Yes, I've used the rule. I'm a recreational golfer who plays for fun. The pros don't complain about it so obviously they're fine with it. I just think it's ridiculously unfair to be rewarded without merit on the PGA Tour. If this happens on a Sunday on the 18th hole in a dual between Tiger and Phil, I guarantee we'd hear some noise about it.

In the sense that his outcome from using the rules gave him and advantage, then yes, he got a break.

But as BC pointed out, knowing the rules is making your own breaks.

[gbower]

Here's one that really happened a couple of years ago and the guy thought it wasn't fair. I got asked to check the 150 marker on a hole as he said it's not in the right spot and it's immovable. I said if it interfered with the stance or swing he would get relief but he said it was only in the path his ball was going to take. I went and checked and they were about 5 yds in the rough but he insisted that they shouldn't be there. When I told him this he insisted they were not positioned right as that was the direct line to the hole. I later found out that his ball had hit the marker and come back and hit him for a 2 stroke penalty (before the rule change to 1 stroke penalty). So I guess having the markers out there and hitting one is not fair.

[fundonny]

And this is relevant because? I'm sure you rules guys can recite a ton of examples of what some feel is fair and isn't.

To me it's black and white. The rule exists. The rule should not allow a player to move from rough to fairway. You want the ball in the fairway, drive it in the fairway in the first place.

Here's one that really happened a couple of years ago and the guy thought it wasn't fair. I got asked to check the 150 marker on a hole as he said it's not in the right spot and it's immovable. I said if it interfered with the stance or swing he would get relief but he said it was only in the path his ball was going to take. I went and checked and they were about 5 yds in the rough but he insisted that they shouldn't be there. When I told him this he insisted they were not positioned right as that was the direct line to the hole. I later found out that his ball had hit the marker and come back and hit him for a 2 stroke penalty (before the rule change to 1 stroke penalty). So I guess having the markers out there and hitting one is not fair.

[jvincent]

Some of you really seem to take it personally when someone questions the biblical rules of golf. Yes, I know the rule. Yes, I've used the rule. I'm a recreational golfer who plays for fun. The pros don't complain about it so obviously they're fine with it. I just think it's ridiculously unfair to be rewarded without merit on the PGA Tour. If this happens on a Sunday on the 18th hole in a dual between Tiger and Phil, I guarantee we'd hear some noise about it.

I'm not taking it personally at all.

The point you seem to be trying to make is that it's somehow unfair for somebody to play by the rules when it results in an advantageous result.

The fact is that sometimes the rules give you and advantage and other times they don't. When and where it happens is entirely random.

[Kilroy]

Sometimes the few good breaks we get in this game come at unexpected times. What is fair that everyone in the same situation will get the same ruling. A clublength is a clublength. When you get it, use it as best you can. Your opponent or FC is sure to.

[Kilroy]

I'm sure you rules guys can recite a ton of examples of what some feel is fair and isn't.

That's because rulings that go against a player (or in favour of his opponent) are inherently deemed unfair by the disadvantaged player.

[goochy]

Of course it's fair. Fair means its the same for everybody. If Stenson, Woods, me or anybody else hit their ball to that spot they would have had the exact same treatment in the exact same situation...likewise if anyone puts it in an unrepaired divot or behind a giant boulder that takes 15 people to move then they all get the same treatment....(errrr....well, sort of, if you happen to have a gallery following you)...but you get my point.

Lucky...yes
Annoying if it's your opponent...yes
and FAIR...yes

Like it or not, luck is a large part of golf. Stenson got a lucky break, not an unfair one.

[fundonny]

It reminds me of getting off on a technicality in a court of law. Everyone plays by the same rule book. Player A can benefit from it and win a tournament while players B through F competing against him suffer from the ruling.
The rule is ridiculous in this particular case.

[AAA]

So what exactly should the rule be ?