Fighting in Hockey

[EDSGOLF]

I was watching "The Practice" last night and they had a case about fighting in hockey. Just wanted your opinions as to see if you feel fighting belongs in hockey, yes a good ol' fashion hit/body check is good, but does fighting belong in hockey? Why (except for boxing) is fighting allowed? Could you imagine John McEnroe fighting with Borris Becker? Or Lance Armstrong getting off his bike, fighting, and get back on his bike? Can you imagine Tiger dropping his club and fighting Phil Mickelson? Just curious?

[em69]

Fighting is not a part of the game of hockey...plain and simple.

BTW, fighting is not allowed in hockey. If it was, they wouldn't be penalized and fined as a result of their idiotic actions.

[Big_duck]

Fighting is not a part of the game of hockey...plain and simple.

Is not or should not be? Seems to me I have seen a few fights during hockey games.

[el tigre]

I agree with em69. Although I'm sure there will always be fights, it does not belong in the game. The penalties for fighting in hockey are not severe enough.

I'm a referee for broomball. In broomball, the minimum penalty for fighting is a 5-minute major and an ejection from the game. If it happens in the last 5 minutes of the game, you are suspended from the next game as well. In addition, most tournaments include a rule where fighting means an automatic ejection from the tournament. Fighting still happens but it is quite rare in broomball.

Other sports (football, baseball, etc) also include a game ejection for fighting. They use the rules, the officials and the league office to police their sport, rather than have the players themselves dish out their own brand of "vigilante justice". If hockey did the same, fighting would be far less prevalent than it is today and games would be more exciting.

[em69]

Is not or should not be? Seems to me I have seen a few fights during hockey games.

:shake I never said fighting does not happen. It is next to impossible to stop it from happening. If you are penalized and/or fined for actions taken, then it is not part of the game.

[Big_duck]

I agree with em69. Although I'm sure there will always be fights, it does not belong in the game. The penalties for fighting in hockey are not severe enough.

I'm a referee for broomball. In broomball, the minimum penalty for fighting is a 5-minute major and an ejection from the game. If it happens in the last 5 minutes of the game, you are suspended from the next game as well. In addition, most tournaments include a rule where fighting means an automatic ejection from the tournament. Fighting still happens but it is quite rare in broomball.

Other sports (football, baseball, etc) also include a game ejection for fighting. They use the rules, the officials and the league office to police their sport, rather than have the players themselves dish out their own brand of "vigilante justice". If hockey did the same, fighting would be far less prevalent than it is today and games would be more exciting.

The difference is that in those sports there is a reasonable assumption that rules infractions will be called (I am giving you the benefit of the doubt for broomball ).

As long as hockey players feel they must police themselves then fighting will be a part of the game. I also believe that if a player thinks he is going to get punted for fighting, then it will no longer be goon-on-goon. You will have goons trying to take on skill players (and take them with them).

[em69]

...then fighting will be a part of the game.

Can you explain in what way fighting is part of the game? Where in the rules of the game does it explain when to fight, how long to fight, where to fight, with whom to fight? Or better yet, what benefit to the game itself does it bring?

I also believe that if a player thinks he is going to get punted for fighting, then it will no longer be goon-on-goon. You will have goons trying to take on skill players (and take them with them).

This already happens. The goons go after the skilled players to throw them off their game and the other goon steps in to protect him. It's a real society in itself.

[broken27]

Fighting is a part of the game insofar as it does happen and there are no real major consequences for it. The real question is should the penalties be more severe (suspensions, fines, etc)?

In today's NHL (rules vary as you work down from there), the rules governing fighting are as follows:

An instigator of an altercation shall be a player who by his actions or demeanor demonstrates any/some of the following criteria: distance traveled; gloves off first; first punch thrown; menacing attitude or posture; verbal instigation or threats; conduct in retaliation to a prior game incident.

(a) A major shall be imposed on any player who fights.

A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major for fighting and a ten minute misconduct.

A player who is assessed a major and a game misconduct for being an instigator/aggressor of an altercation will have this recorded as an instigator of an altercation for statistical and suspension purposes.

If the same player is deemed to be the instigator of a second altercation in the same game, he shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major for fighting and a game misconduct.

A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation for the third time in one Regular Season shall be assessed a minor penalty (instigating), a major (fighting) and a game imsconduct. He subsequently shall be suspended for the next two Regular Season games of his Team. For the fourth instigator penalty in the same Regular Season, the player will be suspended for the next four games of his Team. For the fifth instigator penalty in the same Regular Season, the player will be suspended for the next six games of his Team.

If a player penalized as an instigator of an altercation is wearing a face shield, he shall be assessed an additional Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty.

A player who engages in fisticuffs and whose sweater is not properly "tied-down" (sweater properly fastened to pants), and who loses his sweater (completely off his torso) in that altercation, shall receive a game misconduct.

A player who is involved in an altercation, when the opponent has been identified as an instigator, shall not be assessed a game misconduct if his sweater should be removed by an opponent or an Official in the discharge of his duties.

(NOTE 1) It is the intent and purpose of this Rule that the Referee shall impose the "major and game misconduct" penalty in all cases where the instigator or retaliator of the fight is the aggressor and is plainly doing so for the purpose of intimidation or punishment.

(NOTE 2) The Referee is provided very wide latitude in the penalties which he may impose under this Rule. This is done intentionally to enable him to differentiate between the obvious degrees of responsibility of the participants either for starting the fighting or persisting in continuing the fighting. The discretion provided should be exercised realistically.

(c) A misconduct or game misconduct penalty shall be imposed on any player involved in fisticuffs off the playing surface or with another player who is off the playing surface. These penalties are in addition to any other time penalties assessed.

(d) A game misconduct penalty, at the discretion of the Referee, shall be imposed on any player or goalkeeper who is the first to intervene in an altercation already in progress except when a match penalty is being imposed in the original altercation. This penalty is in addition to any other penalty incurred in the same incident.

Failure to comply with the Rule shall, in addition to the other penalties that may be assessed, result in a fine to the Team of $1,000 and the Coach of said Team in the amount of $1,000.

Now, with such an obviously lengthy and elaborate set of rules, the league has basically "allowed" fighting. They've tried to minimize it through the implementation of the "instigator rule". Hate to agree with Don Cherry on this, but the instigator rule is behind a lot of the cheap-shot antics you see in the game today. They've inadvertently taken away the players' power to police themselves, and sadly the officials haven't taken up the slack.

So, "is fighting a part of hockey"? - YES
Should it be? - Yes, as long as the league isn't getting proper officiating, it should.
Main problem with fighting? - INSTIGATOR RULE!!!!

Here's an article I wrote on the subject a few months ago: Instigating Injuries

Dan

[el tigre]

I also believe that if a player thinks he is going to get punted for fighting, then it will no longer be goon-on-goon. You will have goons trying to take on skill players (and take them with them).

That has not been the situation in other sports (including broomball). The reason is that fighting is not tolerated by the leagues the way it is in the NHL.

Goon takes on skill player, skill player fights back. Both are ejected, goon gets an extra 2 minutes for instigating. Next game goon takes on another skill player, both are ejected and goon gets an extra 2 minutes PLUS goon gets additional suspension of XX games for instigating second fight in the season. And so in. Eventually goons get kicked off the team because they are constantly being suspended, constantly giving the opposing team a power play and taking a roster spot while spending most of the game in the dressing room.

It would take at least a full season for teams to adjust, but eventually they would. And the game would be better for it.

[el tigre]

They've inadvertently taken away the players' power to police themselves, and sadly the officials haven't taken up the slack.

The officials are employed by the league, and they officiate games the way the league wants them to. Otherwise, they're out of a job. If the NHL wanted officials to "take up the slack", they would make it clear and back them up when they do so.

Frankly, I'm appalled at the amount of hooking, slashing, cross-checking, elbowing and charging that is not called in NHL hockey. Whenever the officials DO call this stuff, they are vilified by Don Cherry and others for calling too many penalties and disturbing the "flow of the game".

Some people like the current brand of "Australian rules" hockey. I'm not one of them. But it is up to the league to police the game, not the players.

[em69]

[QUOTE=broken27]Fighting is a part of the game insofar as it does happen and there are no real major consequences for it. The real question is should the penalties be more severe (suspensions, fines, etc)?

So, "is fighting a part of hockey"? - YES QUOTE]

Fighting being part of the game and it happening in the game are two different things and you're getting confused.

Fighting happens...nobody is arguing that. However, you have no arguments showing that it is part of the game. Try to understand the context of the original question.

The hockey stick is [B]part[B] of the game. The puck is [B]part[B] of the game. To score in the opposing teams net is [B]part[B] of the game. To body check a player to acquire the puck is [B]part[B] of the game. Shall I continue?

[Big_duck]

That has not been the situation in other sports (including broomball). The reason is that fighting is not tolerated by the leagues the way it is in the NHL.

Goon takes on skill player, skill player fights back. Both are ejected, goon gets an extra 2 minutes for instigating. Next game goon takes on another skill player, both are ejected and goon gets an extra 2 minutes PLUS goon gets additional suspension of XX games for instigating second fight in the season. And so in. Eventually goons get kicked off the team because they are constantly being suspended, constantly giving the opposing team a power play and taking a roster spot while spending most of the game in the dressing room.

It would take at least a full season for teams to adjust, but eventually they would. And the game would be better for it.

Goon (Hatcher) hacks and slashes hooks and holds star player (Iginla) all game long. Finally Skill player loses it and starts fight with goon. Both are gone for the game plus skill player gets instigator?, who started the fight the who's behavior provoked it or the guy who responded to provication. If the sport was officiated properly, the provication would not be tolerated.

[broken27]

[QUOTE=em69]

Fighting is a part of the game insofar as it does happen and there are no real major consequences for it. The real question is should the penalties be more severe (suspensions, fines, etc)?

So, "is fighting a part of hockey"? - YES QUOTE]

Fighting being part of the game and it happening in the game are two different things and you're getting confused.

Fighting happens...nobody is arguing that. However, you have no arguments showing that it is part of the game. Try to understand the context of the original question.

The hockey stick is [B]part[B] of the game. The puck is [B]part[B] of the game. To score in the opposing teams net is [B]part[B] of the game. To body check a player to acquire the puck is [B]part[B] of the game. Shall I continue?

Please don't bother continuing on my account. I'm tired of sorting through the horrid formatting of your condescending point. (when bolding something, you have to insert "/" before the second B, just trying to be helpful...)

Fighting IS a part of the game, and this is evidenced by the FACT that they have a set of rules governing it. It's a penalty, for sure, which means that it's not a "good" part of the game.

High-sticking is part of the game (but shouldn't be), slashing, cross-checking, hooking, spearing... All a part of the game.

Instead of questioning my understanding of the contextual reference point of the original question, and calling me "confused" when I'm perfectly lucid and clear on the subject being discussed.

Just wanted your opinions as to see if you feel fighting belongs in hockey, yes a good ol' fashion hit/body check is good, but does fighting belong in hockey? Why (except for boxing) is fighting allowed?

Seems you're arguing that it's not allowed, simply because there's a 5-minute penalty for doing it. Unless you kick the guy out of the game, IT IS ALLOWED, but with a minor consequence.

I used to fight in hockey quite a lot, and even at the minor-league level, we never got thrown out of a game, or suspended.

Whether you think fighting should be removed from hockey is a totally different question, but it's one that admits that fighting currently IS a part of the game.

If it isn't part of the game, explain Donald Brashear, Tie Domi, Pete Worrell, Darcy Hordichuk, Kryzstof Oliwa......

Dan

[Big_duck]

[QUOTE=em69]

Fighting is a part of the game insofar as it does happen and there are no real major consequences for it. The real question is should the penalties be more severe (suspensions, fines, etc)?

So, "is fighting a part of hockey"? - YES QUOTE]

Fighting being part of the game and it happening in the game are two different things and you're getting confused.

Fighting happens...nobody is arguing that. However, you have no arguments showing that it is part of the game. Try to understand the context of the original question.

The hockey stick is [B]part[B] of the game. The puck is [B]part[B] of the game. To score in the opposing teams net is [B]part[B] of the game. To body check a player to acquire the puck is [B]part[B] of the game. Shall I continue?

What a nonsensical argument.

[Big_duck]

If it isn't part of the game, explain Donald Brashear, Tie Domi,...

Dan

But they are most of Flyers/Leafs offensive output in the series.

[em69]

I'm tired of sorting through the horrid formatting of your condescending point. (when bolding something, you have to insert "/" before the second B, just trying to be helpful...)

I aplogize for tiring you out from my messages. Easy solution, don't read them. Did I format that one correctly?

No valid argument indicating that fighting is part of the game has been presented.

[broken27]

I aplogize for tiring you out from my messages. Easy solution, don't read them. Did I format that one correctly?

No valid argument indicating that fighting is part of the game has been presented.

And what argument have you presented? Empty rhetoric about hockey sticks being part of the game? Cleary you and I will not agree, and since you pointed out how confused I am, I'll return the favour and ask you to read the original post by EDSGOLF.

The question isn't whether fighting IS or ISN'T a part of the game. The question is whether fighting BELONGS in the game, which is what my initial response addressed.

So, instead of spending your time trying to make me look like an idiot, I'd suggest taking a more productive approach and addressing the actual question that was asked to start the thread.

Cheers,
Dan

[broken27]

But they are most of Flyers/Leafs offensive output in the series.

Sad but true. :shake

Worst hockey players in the lineup are playing as though they were the best. Gotta love Don Cherry. First series against Ottawa, he's criticizing Domi's ice time, saying it's too much. Last night, he criticizes Domi's ice time as being too little. What a jackass.....

Dan

[dbleber]

dbleber:
I have played hockey since I was 5 years old and I have competed at a fairly high level. Playing at this level I had to drop the gloves more than once and I was happy to do it. If by me fighting gets a player off of a star player and gives my team a boost then why not. I will tell you this, fighting is taught in hockey once you reach a certain level. Why is it taught? Because it is a part of the game and with some good reasons. A fight can change the pace of a game in split second, a good fight is good for moral. Hockey is not a touchy feely game, when you hit someone you want to hurt them. When a player slashes you, you drop the gloves and let him know that a cheap shot will not be tolerated. If there were more fights and real goons still in the game, the game would be cleaner. If you do not agree with fighting then don't watch hockey. I don't agree that baseball should take so long, so I don't watch it. Hockey wasn't built on gentlemen admiring each other and giving their full respect for each other no matter what, that's golf. In hockey you have to earn your respect and your heart to play the game. None of you that are disagreeing have obviously ever had to try out for a team at the junior level or above. The very first practice is nothing but guys throwing the fists, why? Because it shows who as the guts, heart and toughness to be there. If you don't like hockey with ALL the physical aspects, watch womens hockey. They still have great skill without the rough stuff. My last point is, if fighting was good enough for Gordie then I 'm sure Mr. Hockey must have been on to something.
Denny

[broken27]

dbleber:
I have played hockey since I was 5 years old and I have competed at a fairly high level. Playing at this level I had to drop the gloves more than once and I was happy to do it. If by me fighting gets a player off of a star player and gives my team a boost then why not. I will tell you this, fighting is taught in hockey once you reach a certain level. Why is it taught? Because it is a part of the game and with some good reasons. A fight can change the pace of a game in split second, a good fight is good for moral. Hockey is not a touchy feely game, when you hit someone you want to hurt them. When a player slashes you, you drop the gloves and let him know that a cheap shot will not be tolerated. If there were more fights and real goons still in the game, the game would be cleaner. If you do not agree with fighting then don't watch hockey. I don't agree that baseball should take so long, so I don't watch it. Hockey wasn't built on gentlemen admiring each other and giving their full respect for each other no matter what, that's golf. In hockey you have to earn your respect and your heart to play the game. None of you that are disagreeing have obviously ever had to try out for a team at the junior level or above. The very first practice is nothing but guys throwing the fists, why? Because it shows who as the guts, heart and toughness to be there. If you don't like hockey with ALL the physical aspects, watch womens hockey. They still have great skill without the rough stuff. My last point is, if fighting was good enough for Gordie then I 'm sure Mr. Hockey must have been on to something.
Denny

Agreed, especially the part about trying out for a high-level team. That's a bloodbath! Good fun, and you end up making more friends than enemies, but it's pretty rough.

One thing that most people don't understand about hockey fights is that serious injuries are fairly rare. It's not the same thing as fighting in a bar (which I've also had the luck to experience on several occasions).

Great points though Denny.

Dan

[chipandput]

be part of hockey.That's why Im not watching it anymore,and also the lack of talent.Players that fight should have a pursuit against them every time they fight.I use to be a big hockey fan........now Im watching hockey at the Olympics only...........chip

[broken27]

be part of hockey.That's why Im not watching it anymore,and also the lack of talent.Players that fight should have a pursuit against them every time they fight.I use to be a big hockey fan........now Im watching hockey at the Olympics only...........chip

There's much less fighting in hockey now than there was even 10 years ago, not to mention the 70s.... How is it possible that you USED to be a big hockey fan when there was more fighting, then use fighting as the reason you're no longer a fan?

I agree with you that Olympic hockey (well, really European hockey) is the best.

Dan

[el tigre]

If you do not agree with fighting then don't watch hockey.

They already have a sport for fighting. It's called boxing, and if that's what you want to do then go right ahead. I may even watch it from time to time.

Just don't call it hockey. Hockey is about skating, stick-handling, passing and shooting the puck, goaltending and yes even body-checking. And sure, players can lose their temper and start throwing punches on rare occasions. But that should be the exception - not the rule.

None of you that are disagreeing have obviously ever had to try out for a team at the junior level or above. The very first practice is nothing but guys throwing the fists, why?

Why, indeed. Only in Canada, though. Just goes to show how screwed up our sport really is.

[mkemila]

The unfortunate thing that happens and has not been touched on yet in this thread is that generally everything that becomes part of the game in the NHL filters its way down to minor hockey. The idea of "taking out their best player with a goon" is not hockey....it just lowers the level of play...........that, I believe is why Europeans are becoming such strong contenders in international hockey.....we got used to clutch and grab to slow faster players

[broken27]

What are you talking about "how screwed up our sport really is"? There's less actual fighting in the game than ever before!

I'd suggest that as people get more and more whiny because of "political correctness" and such, people are perceiving fighting in hockey as a bad thing... Wasn't a big deal in the 70s, 80s, 90s....

I think it's great that hockey has a pugilistic element to it. None of the other major sports have it and boxing is just plain silly (you wanna fight, take the gloves off).

I hope the NHL goes back to no instigator rule, and that everyone who whines about fighting in the sport tunes into the Figure Skating you seemingly prefer.

Dan

[mkemila]

Sorry, my daughter clicked the submit button so I had to drop the gloves. By allowing fighting - what are we teaching the next generation - that's OK son you don't have strike to be as good just tougher Here endeth the sermon

[Big_duck]

What are you talking about "how screwed up our sport really is"? There's less actual fighting in the game than ever before!

I'd suggest that as people get more and more whiny because of "political correctness" and such, people are perceiving fighting in hockey as a bad thing... Wasn't a big deal in the 70s, 80s, 90s....

I think it's great that hockey has a pugilistic element to it. None of the other major sports have it and boxing is just plain silly (you wanna fight, take the gloves off).

I hope the NHL goes back to no instigator rule, and that everyone who whines about fighting in the sport tunes into the Figure Skating you seemingly prefer.

Dan

And this from a big fan of European Hockey!!!

From El Tigre

Hockey is about skating, stick-handling, passing and shooting the puck, goaltending and yes even body-checking. And sure, players can lose their temper and start throwing punches on rare occasions.

And fighting - fighting has always I repeat always been a part of Hockey ... now that European invention "Ice Hockey" is a different story. "Ice Hockey" is to Hockey as Touch Football is to Football, all the skill and finesse without the "violence".

[jonf]

Fighting is, and always has been an integral part of the game of hockey. You cannot compare a fight in hockey to one in golf, tennis, or bike racing, as proposed in the original question (however sarcastically). The fact is, its the nature of the game. In a sport where there is continuous physical contact and sparring, it is only natural that a fight will break out once in a while. I cannot see how anyone would have a problem with a character guy like Jerome Iginla dropping the gloves with a Hatcher, or an Ohlund when he's taken one too many hits from behind, or crosschecks. Iginla got nailed behind by Ohlund, and when he saw that the ref wasn't doing anything, he took it into his own hands to make sure it didn't happen again. That's what makes Iginla one of the top players in the league. He doesn't take from anyone. Fighting is a necessary part of the game, whether it be to protect your star player, or protect yourself, sometimes its necessary to drop the gloves and settle a score the old fashioned way.

[dbleber]

They already have a sport for fighting. It's called boxing, and if that's what you want to do then go right ahead. I may even watch it from time to time.

Just don't call it hockey. Hockey is about skating, stick-handling, passing and shooting the puck, goaltending and yes even body-checking. And sure, players can lose their temper and start throwing punches on rare occasions. But that should be the exception - not the rule.

Why, indeed. Only in Canada, though. Just goes to show how screwed up our sport really is.

dbleber:
Poor guy, still bitter that he could never make the "A" team. Sorry el tigre that you barely understand the game of hockey and believe it should be a bunch of fancy boys skating around and always making the pretty moves. What ever happened to the grind lines and mucking it on the boards. When you play with that much intensity and heart fights will happen. When two guys square off very rarely does anybody ever get hurt, a shiner yes but not hurt. Fighting has as much history as the basic fundamentals of the game, therefore in my books it belongs.
Denny

[dbleber]

Fighting is, and always has been an integral part of the game of hockey. You cannot compare a fight in hockey to one in golf, tennis, or bike racing, as proposed in the original question (however sarcastically). The fact is, its the nature of the game. In a sport where there is continuous physical contact and sparring, it is only natural that a fight will break out once in a while. I cannot see how anyone would have a problem with a character guy like Jerome Iginla dropping the gloves with a Hatcher, or an Ohlund when he's taken one too many hits from behind, or crosschecks. Iginla got nailed behind by Ohlund, and when he saw that the ref wasn't doing anything, he took it into his own hands to make sure it didn't happen again. That's what makes Iginla one of the top players in the league. He doesn't take from anyone. Fighting is a necessary part of the game, whether it be to protect your star player, or protect yourself, sometimes its necessary to drop the gloves and settle a score the old fashioned way.

dbleber;
I couldn't agree more, great comments Jon!
Denny