Fighting in Hockey

[EDSGOLF]

I was watching "The Practice" last night and they had a case about fighting in hockey. Just wanted your opinions as to see if you feel fighting belongs in hockey, yes a good ol' fashion hit/body check is good, but does fighting belong in hockey? Why (except for boxing) is fighting allowed? Could you imagine John McEnroe fighting with Borris Becker? Or Lance Armstrong getting off his bike, fighting, and get back on his bike? Can you imagine Tiger dropping his club and fighting Phil Mickelson? Just curious?

[em69]

Fighting is not a part of the game of hockey...plain and simple.

BTW, fighting is not allowed in hockey. If it was, they wouldn't be penalized and fined as a result of their idiotic actions.

[Big_duck]

Fighting is not a part of the game of hockey...plain and simple.

Is not or should not be? Seems to me I have seen a few fights during hockey games.

[em69]

Is not or should not be? Seems to me I have seen a few fights during hockey games.

:shake I never said fighting does not happen. It is next to impossible to stop it from happening. If you are penalized and/or fined for actions taken, then it is not part of the game.

[el tigre]

I agree with em69. Although I'm sure there will always be fights, it does not belong in the game. The penalties for fighting in hockey are not severe enough.

I'm a referee for broomball. In broomball, the minimum penalty for fighting is a 5-minute major and an ejection from the game. If it happens in the last 5 minutes of the game, you are suspended from the next game as well. In addition, most tournaments include a rule where fighting means an automatic ejection from the tournament. Fighting still happens but it is quite rare in broomball.

Other sports (football, baseball, etc) also include a game ejection for fighting. They use the rules, the officials and the league office to police their sport, rather than have the players themselves dish out their own brand of "vigilante justice". If hockey did the same, fighting would be far less prevalent than it is today and games would be more exciting.

[Big_duck]

I agree with em69. Although I'm sure there will always be fights, it does not belong in the game. The penalties for fighting in hockey are not severe enough.

I'm a referee for broomball. In broomball, the minimum penalty for fighting is a 5-minute major and an ejection from the game. If it happens in the last 5 minutes of the game, you are suspended from the next game as well. In addition, most tournaments include a rule where fighting means an automatic ejection from the tournament. Fighting still happens but it is quite rare in broomball.

Other sports (football, baseball, etc) also include a game ejection for fighting. They use the rules, the officials and the league office to police their sport, rather than have the players themselves dish out their own brand of "vigilante justice". If hockey did the same, fighting would be far less prevalent than it is today and games would be more exciting.

The difference is that in those sports there is a reasonable assumption that rules infractions will be called (I am giving you the benefit of the doubt for broomball ).

As long as hockey players feel they must police themselves then fighting will be a part of the game. I also believe that if a player thinks he is going to get punted for fighting, then it will no longer be goon-on-goon. You will have goons trying to take on skill players (and take them with them).

[em69]

...then fighting will be a part of the game.

Can you explain in what way fighting is part of the game? Where in the rules of the game does it explain when to fight, how long to fight, where to fight, with whom to fight? Or better yet, what benefit to the game itself does it bring?

I also believe that if a player thinks he is going to get punted for fighting, then it will no longer be goon-on-goon. You will have goons trying to take on skill players (and take them with them).

This already happens. The goons go after the skilled players to throw them off their game and the other goon steps in to protect him. It's a real society in itself.

[broken27]

Fighting is a part of the game insofar as it does happen and there are no real major consequences for it. The real question is should the penalties be more severe (suspensions, fines, etc)?

In today's NHL (rules vary as you work down from there), the rules governing fighting are as follows:

An instigator of an altercation shall be a player who by his actions or demeanor demonstrates any/some of the following criteria: distance traveled; gloves off first; first punch thrown; menacing attitude or posture; verbal instigation or threats; conduct in retaliation to a prior game incident.

(a) A major shall be imposed on any player who fights.

A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major for fighting and a ten minute misconduct.

A player who is assessed a major and a game misconduct for being an instigator/aggressor of an altercation will have this recorded as an instigator of an altercation for statistical and suspension purposes.

If the same player is deemed to be the instigator of a second altercation in the same game, he shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major for fighting and a game misconduct.

A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation for the third time in one Regular Season shall be assessed a minor penalty (instigating), a major (fighting) and a game imsconduct. He subsequently shall be suspended for the next two Regular Season games of his Team. For the fourth instigator penalty in the same Regular Season, the player will be suspended for the next four games of his Team. For the fifth instigator penalty in the same Regular Season, the player will be suspended for the next six games of his Team.

If a player penalized as an instigator of an altercation is wearing a face shield, he shall be assessed an additional Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty.

A player who engages in fisticuffs and whose sweater is not properly "tied-down" (sweater properly fastened to pants), and who loses his sweater (completely off his torso) in that altercation, shall receive a game misconduct.

A player who is involved in an altercation, when the opponent has been identified as an instigator, shall not be assessed a game misconduct if his sweater should be removed by an opponent or an Official in the discharge of his duties.

(NOTE 1) It is the intent and purpose of this Rule that the Referee shall impose the "major and game misconduct" penalty in all cases where the instigator or retaliator of the fight is the aggressor and is plainly doing so for the purpose of intimidation or punishment.

(NOTE 2) The Referee is provided very wide latitude in the penalties which he may impose under this Rule. This is done intentionally to enable him to differentiate between the obvious degrees of responsibility of the participants either for starting the fighting or persisting in continuing the fighting. The discretion provided should be exercised realistically.

(c) A misconduct or game misconduct penalty shall be imposed on any player involved in fisticuffs off the playing surface or with another player who is off the playing surface. These penalties are in addition to any other time penalties assessed.

(d) A game misconduct penalty, at the discretion of the Referee, shall be imposed on any player or goalkeeper who is the first to intervene in an altercation already in progress except when a match penalty is being imposed in the original altercation. This penalty is in addition to any other penalty incurred in the same incident.

Failure to comply with the Rule shall, in addition to the other penalties that may be assessed, result in a fine to the Team of $1,000 and the Coach of said Team in the amount of $1,000.

Now, with such an obviously lengthy and elaborate set of rules, the league has basically "allowed" fighting. They've tried to minimize it through the implementation of the "instigator rule". Hate to agree with Don Cherry on this, but the instigator rule is behind a lot of the cheap-shot antics you see in the game today. They've inadvertently taken away the players' power to police themselves, and sadly the officials haven't taken up the slack.

So, "is fighting a part of hockey"? - YES
Should it be? - Yes, as long as the league isn't getting proper officiating, it should.
Main problem with fighting? - INSTIGATOR RULE!!!!

Here's an article I wrote on the subject a few months ago: Instigating Injuries

Dan

[el tigre]

I also believe that if a player thinks he is going to get punted for fighting, then it will no longer be goon-on-goon. You will have goons trying to take on skill players (and take them with them).

That has not been the situation in other sports (including broomball). The reason is that fighting is not tolerated by the leagues the way it is in the NHL.

Goon takes on skill player, skill player fights back. Both are ejected, goon gets an extra 2 minutes for instigating. Next game goon takes on another skill player, both are ejected and goon gets an extra 2 minutes PLUS goon gets additional suspension of XX games for instigating second fight in the season. And so in. Eventually goons get kicked off the team because they are constantly being suspended, constantly giving the opposing team a power play and taking a roster spot while spending most of the game in the dressing room.

It would take at least a full season for teams to adjust, but eventually they would. And the game would be better for it.

[Big_duck]

That has not been the situation in other sports (including broomball). The reason is that fighting is not tolerated by the leagues the way it is in the NHL.

Goon takes on skill player, skill player fights back. Both are ejected, goon gets an extra 2 minutes for instigating. Next game goon takes on another skill player, both are ejected and goon gets an extra 2 minutes PLUS goon gets additional suspension of XX games for instigating second fight in the season. And so in. Eventually goons get kicked off the team because they are constantly being suspended, constantly giving the opposing team a power play and taking a roster spot while spending most of the game in the dressing room.

It would take at least a full season for teams to adjust, but eventually they would. And the game would be better for it.

Goon (Hatcher) hacks and slashes hooks and holds star player (Iginla) all game long. Finally Skill player loses it and starts fight with goon. Both are gone for the game plus skill player gets instigator?, who started the fight the who's behavior provoked it or the guy who responded to provication. If the sport was officiated properly, the provication would not be tolerated.

[dbleber]

dbleber:
I have played hockey since I was 5 years old and I have competed at a fairly high level. Playing at this level I had to drop the gloves more than once and I was happy to do it. If by me fighting gets a player off of a star player and gives my team a boost then why not. I will tell you this, fighting is taught in hockey once you reach a certain level. Why is it taught? Because it is a part of the game and with some good reasons. A fight can change the pace of a game in split second, a good fight is good for moral. Hockey is not a touchy feely game, when you hit someone you want to hurt them. When a player slashes you, you drop the gloves and let him know that a cheap shot will not be tolerated. If there were more fights and real goons still in the game, the game would be cleaner. If you do not agree with fighting then don't watch hockey. I don't agree that baseball should take so long, so I don't watch it. Hockey wasn't built on gentlemen admiring each other and giving their full respect for each other no matter what, that's golf. In hockey you have to earn your respect and your heart to play the game. None of you that are disagreeing have obviously ever had to try out for a team at the junior level or above. The very first practice is nothing but guys throwing the fists, why? Because it shows who as the guts, heart and toughness to be there. If you don't like hockey with ALL the physical aspects, watch womens hockey. They still have great skill without the rough stuff. My last point is, if fighting was good enough for Gordie then I 'm sure Mr. Hockey must have been on to something.
Denny

[broken27]

dbleber:
I have played hockey since I was 5 years old and I have competed at a fairly high level. Playing at this level I had to drop the gloves more than once and I was happy to do it. If by me fighting gets a player off of a star player and gives my team a boost then why not. I will tell you this, fighting is taught in hockey once you reach a certain level. Why is it taught? Because it is a part of the game and with some good reasons. A fight can change the pace of a game in split second, a good fight is good for moral. Hockey is not a touchy feely game, when you hit someone you want to hurt them. When a player slashes you, you drop the gloves and let him know that a cheap shot will not be tolerated. If there were more fights and real goons still in the game, the game would be cleaner. If you do not agree with fighting then don't watch hockey. I don't agree that baseball should take so long, so I don't watch it. Hockey wasn't built on gentlemen admiring each other and giving their full respect for each other no matter what, that's golf. In hockey you have to earn your respect and your heart to play the game. None of you that are disagreeing have obviously ever had to try out for a team at the junior level or above. The very first practice is nothing but guys throwing the fists, why? Because it shows who as the guts, heart and toughness to be there. If you don't like hockey with ALL the physical aspects, watch womens hockey. They still have great skill without the rough stuff. My last point is, if fighting was good enough for Gordie then I 'm sure Mr. Hockey must have been on to something.
Denny

Agreed, especially the part about trying out for a high-level team. That's a bloodbath! Good fun, and you end up making more friends than enemies, but it's pretty rough.

One thing that most people don't understand about hockey fights is that serious injuries are fairly rare. It's not the same thing as fighting in a bar (which I've also had the luck to experience on several occasions).

Great points though Denny.

Dan

[chipandput]

be part of hockey.That's why Im not watching it anymore,and also the lack of talent.Players that fight should have a pursuit against them every time they fight.I use to be a big hockey fan........now Im watching hockey at the Olympics only...........chip

[broken27]

be part of hockey.That's why Im not watching it anymore,and also the lack of talent.Players that fight should have a pursuit against them every time they fight.I use to be a big hockey fan........now Im watching hockey at the Olympics only...........chip

There's much less fighting in hockey now than there was even 10 years ago, not to mention the 70s.... How is it possible that you USED to be a big hockey fan when there was more fighting, then use fighting as the reason you're no longer a fan?

I agree with you that Olympic hockey (well, really European hockey) is the best.

Dan

[chipandput]

There's much less fighting in hockey now than there was even 10 years ago, not to mention the 70s.... How is it possible that you USED to be a big hockey fan when there was more fighting, then use fighting as the reason you're no longer a fan?

I agree with you that Olympic hockey (well, really European hockey) is the best.

Dan

I didn't like the violence in hockey back in the 70s but at least there was talent and there was less dirty cheap shots . Im still saying that there should'n be any fights in hockey and peoples that like fights would like it better after they get use to see good plays and nice goals..............chip

[broken27]

I didn't like the violence in hockey back in the 70s but at least there was talent and there was less dirty cheap shots . Im still saying that there should'n be any fights in hockey and peoples that like fights would like it better after they get use to see good plays and nice goals..............chip

Wasn't intended as a shot or anything... Good explanation for an otherwise very ironic situation.

Cheers,
Dan

[dbleber]

I didn't like the violence in hockey back in the 70s but at least there was talent and there was less dirty cheap shots . Im still saying that there should'n be any fights in hockey and peoples that like fights would like it better after they get use to see good plays and nice goals..............chip

dbleber:
Yup, no cheap shots back them. Gordie Howe, Bobby Clark .......just a bunch of clean players.
Denny

[el tigre]

If you do not agree with fighting then don't watch hockey.

They already have a sport for fighting. It's called boxing, and if that's what you want to do then go right ahead. I may even watch it from time to time.

Just don't call it hockey. Hockey is about skating, stick-handling, passing and shooting the puck, goaltending and yes even body-checking. And sure, players can lose their temper and start throwing punches on rare occasions. But that should be the exception - not the rule.

None of you that are disagreeing have obviously ever had to try out for a team at the junior level or above. The very first practice is nothing but guys throwing the fists, why?

Why, indeed. Only in Canada, though. Just goes to show how screwed up our sport really is.

[broken27]

What are you talking about "how screwed up our sport really is"? There's less actual fighting in the game than ever before!

I'd suggest that as people get more and more whiny because of "political correctness" and such, people are perceiving fighting in hockey as a bad thing... Wasn't a big deal in the 70s, 80s, 90s....

I think it's great that hockey has a pugilistic element to it. None of the other major sports have it and boxing is just plain silly (you wanna fight, take the gloves off).

I hope the NHL goes back to no instigator rule, and that everyone who whines about fighting in the sport tunes into the Figure Skating you seemingly prefer.

Dan

[Big_duck]

What are you talking about "how screwed up our sport really is"? There's less actual fighting in the game than ever before!

I'd suggest that as people get more and more whiny because of "political correctness" and such, people are perceiving fighting in hockey as a bad thing... Wasn't a big deal in the 70s, 80s, 90s....

I think it's great that hockey has a pugilistic element to it. None of the other major sports have it and boxing is just plain silly (you wanna fight, take the gloves off).

I hope the NHL goes back to no instigator rule, and that everyone who whines about fighting in the sport tunes into the Figure Skating you seemingly prefer.

Dan

And this from a big fan of European Hockey!!!

From El Tigre

Hockey is about skating, stick-handling, passing and shooting the puck, goaltending and yes even body-checking. And sure, players can lose their temper and start throwing punches on rare occasions.

And fighting - fighting has always I repeat always been a part of Hockey ... now that European invention "Ice Hockey" is a different story. "Ice Hockey" is to Hockey as Touch Football is to Football, all the skill and finesse without the "violence".

[broken27]

And this from a big fan of European Hockey!!!

Hey Big Duck, I hope you were being sarcastic in the reference to my post. I'm a HUGE fan of Euro hockey, but also played a lot (up until midget, then tried out for various levels of junior hockey up to CJHL but was not big enough to endure tryouts) in Canada since I was born and raised here.

I'm totally behind improving the game of hockey, as my journalistic pursuits should make obvious to those who have read my columns. But I think it's attitudes that are changing, and that makes people look at the inate violence of hockey more closely. Maybe you didn't realize you liked fighting before, but you can't say it wasn't there. If you've been "fighting against fighting" for a long time, then I can respect that, but if it's a new thing because of the Bertuzzi incident, then I'd suggest your sudden hatred of the game is an over-reaction to a very ugly thing.

Cheers,
Dan

[el tigre]

I'd suggest that as people get more and more whiny because of "political correctness" and such, people are perceiving fighting in hockey as a bad thing... Wasn't a big deal in the 70s, 80s, 90s....

Oh no, not the "I'm a victim of political correctness" rant again. Sorry, fighting in hockey has ALWAYS been a big deal.

I think it's great that hockey has a pugilistic element to it. None of the other major sports have it and boxing is just plain silly (you wanna fight, take the gloves off).

Boxing is fighting done by professionals. If Lennox Lewis hit Tie Domi with the gloves off, Tie wouldn't get up off the ice for a LONG, LONG time. In fact, boxing used to be without gloves a long, long time but too many people were getting seriously hurt and even killed. Oh, those silly boxers!

[broken27]

Oh no, not the "I'm a victim of political correctness" rant again. Sorry, fighting in hockey has ALWAYS been a big deal.

Boxing is fighting done by professionals. If Lennox Lewis hit Tie Domi with the gloves off, Tie wouldn't get up off the ice for a LONG, LONG time. In fact, boxing used to be without gloves a long, long time but too many people were getting seriously hurt and even killed. Oh, those silly boxers!

Perhaps fighting in hockey has always been a big deal to you, that's fine. But the issue of eliminating it from the game has never been more prevalent in terms of actualizing the idea than it is now.

I am very much aware of what boxing is, and know that there is and has always been "gloves off" boxing being done. My point wasn't that they aren't tough (Domi's a wimp IMHO though), it's just I find that sport silly. I can handle it in limited doses (hockey), where it has a contextual validity, but watching two guys just beat the crap out of each other for money is barbaric.

Dan

[dbleber]

They already have a sport for fighting. It's called boxing, and if that's what you want to do then go right ahead. I may even watch it from time to time.

Just don't call it hockey. Hockey is about skating, stick-handling, passing and shooting the puck, goaltending and yes even body-checking. And sure, players can lose their temper and start throwing punches on rare occasions. But that should be the exception - not the rule.

Why, indeed. Only in Canada, though. Just goes to show how screwed up our sport really is.

dbleber:
Poor guy, still bitter that he could never make the "A" team. Sorry el tigre that you barely understand the game of hockey and believe it should be a bunch of fancy boys skating around and always making the pretty moves. What ever happened to the grind lines and mucking it on the boards. When you play with that much intensity and heart fights will happen. When two guys square off very rarely does anybody ever get hurt, a shiner yes but not hurt. Fighting has as much history as the basic fundamentals of the game, therefore in my books it belongs.
Denny

[el tigre]

dbleber:
Poor guy, still bitter that he could never make the "A" team. Sorry el tigre that you barely understand the game of hockey and believe it should be a bunch of fancy boys skating around and always making the pretty moves. What ever happened to the grind lines and mucking it on the boards.

What kind of an idiotic, juvenile response is that? Couldn't think a rational, logical argument so you had to resort to calling people names? Grow up!

The "A" team is made up of all the players that can skate, pass and shoot. That's what hockey fans want to see. The grind lines are the guys that barely made the team. You think people pay $150 a game to see them "mucking it on the boards"? Hardly.

[dbleber]

What kind of an idiotic, juvenile response is that? Couldn't think a rational, logical argument so you had to resort to calling people names? Grow up!

The "A" team is made up of all the players that can skate, pass and shoot. That's what hockey fans want to see. The grind lines are the guys that barely made the team. You think people pay $150 a game to see them "mucking it on the boards"? Hardly.

dbleber:

I didn't call you any names . I was expressing the fact that I think you don't know jack about hockey and should stick to ringette or figure skating.

Lots of people watch hockey to see tough guys dig in the corners, fight for the puck and every now and again duke it out. Take a look at a leafs game, I see a lot of Tie Domi fans in croud. For gods sake even Wayne dropped the gloves. I think a lot of you that don't like fighting in hockey are over reacting. There aren't that many fights, every now and then a big one will break out but that's what's keeping the big rivalries still alive. A little heart and toughness in hockey is refreshing since most of these players have lost reality to what an average person makes a year. If two guys want to drop the gloves, let them for what they get paid I wish I could punch one of them for complaining about it.

Don't be so sensitive, I didn't mean to hurt your touchy feelings.
Denny

[Deep Woods]

I used to love the clean olympic hockey games. I don't watch hockey today, because the fighting makes it a lame sport to watch. Oddly, I like boxing, I guess because the intent is clear.

[mkemila]

The unfortunate thing that happens and has not been touched on yet in this thread is that generally everything that becomes part of the game in the NHL filters its way down to minor hockey. The idea of "taking out their best player with a goon" is not hockey....it just lowers the level of play...........that, I believe is why Europeans are becoming such strong contenders in international hockey.....we got used to clutch and grab to slow faster players

[mkemila]

Sorry, my daughter clicked the submit button so I had to drop the gloves. By allowing fighting - what are we teaching the next generation - that's OK son you don't have strike to be as good just tougher Here endeth the sermon

[dbleber]

Sorry, my daughter clicked the submit button so I had to drop the gloves. By allowing fighting - what are we teaching the next generation - that's OK son you don't have strike to be as good just tougher Here endeth the sermon

dbleber:
Give me a break. Half are problems with todays youth are that they are a bunch of wimps who think the world owes them everything. This touchy feely crap is what's ruining the teachings of generations past. If you don't want your kids to see fighting in hockey don't let them watch it! Your the parent, don't change hockey because you can't say no to your kids. But let me guess it's the TV's fault that little Jonny punched that kid at school, not the parents who let them watch what ever show they want voilence and all. We should be teaching are next generation that hard work and sacrifice is what counts not rap music and video games.
Denny