Who is worse than Joe Thornton in the playoffs?

[Hacker]

Well I would say Henrik Lundqvist did just that yesterday when the Caps came out with the full arsenal. The Caps should have won that game hands down but one man made the difference.

I have to disagree with Golfbum and agree with mberube on this point. A goalie can and has single-handedly win a series.

Look at Patrick Roy in 85-86 and 92-93!!!

[mberube]

Yashin

Yashin is not in Joes category. He had one 94 point and one 88 point season. The other seasons are all sub 80 point seasons.

[Hacker]

There are stupid fans everywhere.

What’s the difference between playing the injury card and blaming it on the goalie on Ottawa for yeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrs! !

For starters I've never blamed the goal tending in Ottawa, I blame the GM for not addressing the goal tending issue. Secondly, not every team has weak goal tending, but come play-off every team has players that are banged up.

I'll finish by saying that I have a theory that most of Montreal's walking wounded could have in fact played (albeit not at 100%) but Gainey has a much better chance of keeping his job if he can point to all of the players who were injured..........

[mberube]

For starters I've never blamed the goal tending in Ottawa, I blame the GM for not addressing the goal tending issue. Secondly, not every team has weak goal tending, but come play-off every team has players that are banged up.

Same thing in my book. You’re still blaming goal tending when most players were not paying the price when it counted.

I'll finish by saying that I have a theory that most of Montreal's walking wounded could have in fact played (albeit not at 100%) but Gainey has a much better chance of keeping his job if he can point to all of the players who were injured..........

Nice try.

I have no doubt that all 4 players were injured. Everyone is pointing fingers at the habs but the Bruins played dutifully and very disciplined. The fact is that the best team won. They are young, fast, strong and well coached.

[jonf]

NOT!!! Price is not to blame for this sweep. If it wasn’t for him they would not be in the playoffs. Tell you what, let’s start this series from scratch. Put in a healthy Markov, Schneider, Tanguay and Lang and scratch Chara, Wideman, Savard, and Kessel or Rider. It’s a complete different series. Second, give credit where credit is due. The Bruins are an awesome team.

As for Joe and others they do need to pick up his game BUT Hiller was just unbelievable in the first two games.

HAHAHA..... there is absolutely no way you can compare markov, schneider, tanguay and lang to chara wideman savard and kessel. The gap between the Canadien's best and the Bruins best is so large it's unbelievable. And the amount of offensive depth on the bruins is amazing. When a D-man is your leading scorer, your team has problems up front. period.

[jonf]

Yashin is not in Joes category. He had one 94 point and one 88 point season. The other seasons are all sub 80 point seasons.

True, but he just asked for a pay vs playoff futility comparison. Doesn't get much worse than yashin.

[mberube]

HAHAHA..... there is absolutely no way you can compare markov, schneider, tanguay and lang to chara wideman savard and kessel. The gap between the Canadien's best and the Bruins best is so large it's unbelievable. And the amount of offensive depth on the bruins is amazing. When a D-man is your leading scorer, your team has problems up front. period.

Let’s compare:

Match up 1:
Markov 78 games 12G 52A 64P
Total NHL .58 points per game
Best season ever

Chara 80 games 19G 31A 50P
Total NHL career .41 points per game

Advantage Markov

Match up 2:

Mathieu Schneider although he had a bad year before coming to MTL
23 games 5G 12A 17 point (Close to a point a game)
Had a great career with more then a few 50+ point seasons. Won 2 cups
Totals 734 points at 0.58 points per game

Denis Wideman Career season with the best team of the year.
Stats are nothing comparable to Schneider.

Advantage Schneider but Wideman is younger thus has good years in front of him.Match up 3:

Tanguay 50G 41Points 0.82 Points per game. Injurey prone season.
Won 2 cups with AVS
NHL career 0.88 points per game

Savard 82G 88P 1.07PPG
Great last 5 years but has never won anything. Played in only two post seasons. First time in second round.
NHL career 0.89 points per game

These two players are very similar playmakers and have similar stats. I would give a slight advantage to Savard but not by much. Tanguay got the job done twice on a top line but Savard is on a roll for the past 5 years.

Robert Lang Won a few cups. Was the best scorer in MTL when he got injured. 50 games 39 points. A couple of 60-70-80 points seaons.

Michael Ryder: 2 30 goal season. Able to play only under one coach. Very lazy scater at times.

Very similar type players. Very slight advantage to Ryder because he has potential and he is young.

All and all these players have the same impact on there team. The stats prove that they are similar players and if the roles were reversed the result would be different. Not that the Habs would have won but it would have been tighter.

I just saw Julien press conference and he said the same thing I did. They played a very banged up team. The results would have been deferent if some of his key players were out.

Don’t forget that MTL finished 1st in the east last year with almost the same team. The key was, no injuries. They also have of their best start to the season this year.

[sillywilly]

yup, yashin is def the worst lol. 29 points in 47 games or something. don't know how i forgot about him. I wonder if thornton is the worst non-goalie every to win the hart? is st. louis better than thornton??

[sillywilly]

the thing i love about stats is that you can use them to prove the silliest things... like markov is better than chara. Chara is a norris candidate almost every year. He does much more than score goals. also 17 points in 23 games is nowhere close to a point a game. its not even 3/4 points per game!! almost a point a game is 22 points in 23 games

[Hacker]

Let’s compare:

Match up 1:
Markov 78 games 12G 52A 64P
Total NHL .58 points per game
Best season ever

Chara 80 games 19G 31A 50P
Total NHL career .41 points per game

Advantage Markov

Match up 2:

Mathieu Schneider although he had a bad year before coming to MTL
23 games 5G 12A 17 point (Close to a point a game)
Had a great career with more then a few 50+ point seasons. Won 2 cups
Totals 734 points at 0.58 points per game

Denis Wideman Career season with the best team of the year.
Stats are nothing comparable to Schneider.

Advantage Schneider but Wideman is younger thus has good years in front of him.Match up 3:

Tanguay 50G 41Points 0.82 Points per game. Injurey prone season.
Won 2 cups with AVS
NHL career 0.88 points per game

Savard 82G 88P 1.07PPG
Great last 5 years but has never won anything. Played in only two post seasons. First time in second round.
NHL career 0.89 points per game

These two players are very similar playmakers and have similar stats. I would give a slight advantage to Savard but not by much. Tanguay got the job done twice on a top line but Savard is on a roll for the past 5 years.

Robert Lang Won a few cups. Was the best scorer in MTL when he got injured. 50 games 39 points. A couple of 60-70-80 points seaons.

Michael Ryder: 2 30 goal season. Able to play only under one coach. Very lazy scater at times.

Very similar type players. Very slight advantage to Ryder because he has potential and he is young.

All and all these players have the same impact on there team. The stats prove that they are similar players and if the roles were reversed the result would be different. Not that the Habs would have won but it would have been tighter.

Oh my God!! You are comparing apples and oranges!! You can't seriously be saying that you'd take Markov over Chara!!! You'd never find one GM or pro scout who would agree with you.

Lang and Schneider both have one foot out the retirement door, you can't use a career's worth of achievements for guys like Lang and Schneider and compare them to much younger player like Wideman and Ryder.

Sorry to say, but your stats comparisons don't prove a thing.....apples and oranges.

[jonf]

Chara singlehandedly dominated every single Canadiens forward who approached the net. When's the last time Chara did that? Schneider was an incredible player..key word, WAS. Great guy to have on your team for experience, but to rely on him for anything but leadership is foolhardy at best.

Michael Ryder...singlehandedly embarassed the Canadiens defence (not to mention all the Canadiens fans and media who ran him out of town)/

Savard...incredible season. Tanguay...good season, but not what he used to be.


Basically, you're measuring the past accomplishments of Canadiens players against the present production of the Bruins. With that logic, you might as well say "the Canadiens only lost because Dryden, Richard, Beliveau, Cornoyer, Lafleur, and Robinson weren't in the lineup".

[jonf]

And the even more important comparison is what their teams would be left with without those players in the lineup. As we say, the Canadiens had nothing. Whereas the Bruins are left with Lucic, Kreiji, Wheeler, Bergeron, Recchi, Kessel, Yelle, etc etc etc etc etc. No comparison. The canadiens would have struggled with a full lineup against an undermanned Bruins. The depth difference is incredible.

[Hacker]

the thing i love about stats is that you can use them to prove the silliest things...

I think that you'll agree that there is one Stat that bears mentioning..........

Games Won

And in that category we have:

Boston = 4

Montreal = 0

Any thing else is nothing more than an attempt at rationalization.....

[Big Johnny69]

Previously in this thread it was asked what is worse: Not making the playoffs or making the playoffs and getting swept in 4???

To say getting swept is worse than not making the playoffs shows the lack of understanding of what makes NHL players tick. Ask any player, and they'll tell you missing the playoffs is worse. Why??? Because if you make the playoffs you at least have a CHANCE of winning the Stanley Cup!!!! Doesn't matter how banged up your team is. Or how slim of a chance your team has of beating your first round opponent....it's a sporting event. And we've all come to realize that anything can happen, that's why we play the games.

So to say it's worse to make the playoffs and be swept is absurd!!!! And just so we're clear on this, I am a Sens fan.

[Fallys0820]

NOT!!! Price is not to blame for this sweep. If it wasn’t for him they would not be in the playoffs. Tell you what, let’s start this series from scratch. Put in a healthy Markov, Schneider, Tanguay and Lang and scratch Chara, Wideman, Savard, and Kessel or Rider. It’s a complete different series. Second, give credit where credit is due. The Bruins are an awesome team.

As for Joe and others they do need to pick up his game BUT Hiller was just unbelievable in the first two games.

This is inherently the problem. Price was not good in this series. His teammates saying after last nights game that he didn't even have a chance on a couple of those goals is because he was so far out of position he was pretty much playing defence. However, when your defence puts the puck on a tee and lets Bruin_01 take a rip at you, you can't be left to shoulder all of the blame.

To continue, the injuries were used as excuses before the playoffs started. Rather than play through it and play hard, they just limped through four games. Two defencemen, albeit 20+ min men, don't make the difference you needed in this series. Lang doesn't represent the difference. They didn't have the mental fortitude to play hard any game.

There are stupid fans everywhere.

What’s the difference between playing the injury card and blaming it on the goalie on Ottawa for yeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrs! !

The difference is you're comparing injured players who have lost some ability, with players who do not possess any ability

Fally
aka Scott

[jeffc]

Datsyuk won the cup more then once I think. He played good last year If I recall correctly.

agreed he did. I was just going by his ppg reg season vs. playoffs and comparing him to Thornton.

[prophet]

Patrick Marleau has a hard time in the playoffs also!

[davevandyk]

Pay attention here SillyWilly. Read the above statement twice if you have to in order to understand what Dave is saying.

As for Joe, I am not making excuses. Everyone around him needs to pick games, including Nabby.

They need to be in front of the net more so Hiller can not see the puck.

It's not like they lost the first two games to an ECHL team, they lost to a team that won the Stanley Cup 2 seasons ago and know what it takes to win.

As for your bet on Thornton never being in the Top Ten is scoring. I don't want to take your money.

I truly think, and I alway like to make outlandish predictions that are usually wrong, that the Stanley Cup Champ will come from this series! Ya I said it!!

[justsomeguy]

I truly think, and I alway like to make outlandish predictions that are usually wrong, that the Stanley Cup Champ will come from this series! Ya I said it!!

I don't think so. Detroit and Vancouver will be in the Western Conference final, and it'll go 7 games. I'm giving Vancouver the edge simply because goaltending usually trumps offence in the playoffs, but whoever wins THAT series will beat Boston for the Stanley Cup.

[jonf]

Vancouver is not as good as they look. Don't have the toughness to play 4 rounds of playoffs. They're simply not deep enough up front.

I still like the looks of Calgary in the west, and New Jersey in the East.

[jeffc]

Detroit and Boston for me. It's obvious but I I don't they are both looking good.

[jonf]

Wow...that has got to be one of the worst games of hockey I've ever seen played by such a talented player. It's one thing for a guy like Thornton to not be producing. It's a whole other thing when he is the worst player on the ice. The Sharks looked far better with him sitting on the bench than they did while he was on the ice. Coasting all over the ice, weak on the puck in the corners, avoiding contact like the plague, and not putting in a lick of effort on the defensive end. He did pick up and assist and almost scored a goal, but unfortunately those were both at the wrong end of the ice.

The guy looks like he's afraid to get hit. He's huge, but he doesn't throw hits, he doesn't forecheck, and mostly just skates around waiting for everyone else to do the work. Shows no emotion, no sense of urgency, no leadership of any kind. The guy is a statue. No facial expression, and virtually no movement when he is on the ice. I don't think I've ever seen a player look like he cared less than Thornton did tonight, and this was one of the biggest games of his career. Pathetic.

[mberube]

Oh my God!! You are comparing apples and oranges!! You can't seriously be saying that you'd take Markov over Chara!!! You'd never find one GM or pro scout who would agree with you.

Well that’s easy. Just take a short drive to Kanata and ask the GM and scouts there. Ask them who they would take between Chara and Redden. Oh ya they have been that road before. Who did they pick again? I can here it coming, it’s the GM’s fault again. Always someone to blame in Ottawa and you guys talk about Habs fans. Go figure…..

[mberube]

Bitter bitter Sens fans. For what it’s worth you all seem to forget that all the “specialist” did not see the Bruins make the post season this year before the season started. Now they are the god of all teams. Don’t forget that they got man handled 8 straight games last year by the Habs with this the same team that eliminated the habs this year. The only difference is injuries. That’s a fact and no one can deny it. Habs finished first in the east with 104 points. They also had close to record season start this year and were top 4 in the east for quite some time. It went downhill when Lang was injured.

[sensfan63]

Wow...that has got to be one of the worst games of hockey I've ever seen played by such a talented player. It's one thing for a guy like Thornton to not be producing. It's a whole other thing when he is the worst player on the ice. The Sharks looked far better with him sitting on the bench than they did while he was on the ice. Coasting all over the ice, weak on the puck in the corners, avoiding contact like the plague, and not putting in a lick of effort on the defensive end. He did pick up and assist and almost scored a goal, but unfortunately those were both at the wrong end of the ice.

The guy looks like he's afraid to get hit. He's huge, but he doesn't throw hits, he doesn't forecheck, and mostly just skates around waiting for everyone else to do the work. Shows no emotion, no sense of urgency, no leadership of any kind. The guy is a statue. No facial expression, and virtually no movement when he is on the ice. I don't think I've ever seen a player look like he cared less than Thornton did tonight, and this was one of the biggest games of his career. Pathetic.

What he said ^

I said it last year at this time, and I'll say it again. Soft Joe will (has been) be exposed.

Did anyone watch the Canes-Devils game last night? One of the best games I've seen in quite some time, and it was 1-0. 85 saves on 86 shots. Awesome.

[mberube]

What he said ^

I said it last year at this time, and I'll say it again. Soft Joe will (has been) be exposed.

Did anyone watch the Canes-Devils game last night? One of the best games I've seen in quite some time, and it was 1-0. 85 saves on 86 shots. Awesome.

I did not pay attention to the Devils game because I was at the golf course but did I see Brodeur get hurt? I saw a replay where he dived for the puck with no stick. He looked shook-up when he got up. That would be quite a blow to the devils if they lost him.

I also saw Osgood is the same situation. I wonder if he was OK.

Mike

[sensfan63]

I did not pay attention to the Devils game because I was at the golf course but did I see Brodeur get hurt? I saw a replay where he dived for the puck with no stick. He looked shook-up when he got up. That would be quite a blow to the devils if they lost him.

I also saw Osgood is the same situation. I wonder if he was OK.

Mike

AFAIK that was in the first period, so obviously it didn't affect his performance. Brodeur was awesome, and Ward let in a tip-in of a point shot. It's to the point where a shot has to be altered/deflected in order for someone to score.

[mberube]

AFAIK that was in the first period, so obviously it didn't affect his performance. Brodeur was awesome, and Ward let in a tip-in of a point shot. It's to the point where a shot has to be altered/deflected in order for someone to score.

Ah OK. I thought it was in the third. The winner in this series might be very hard to beat. The winner will take Pits in the second round IF they don’t choke up a 3-1 lead.

[Shivas Irons]

I don't think I've ever seen a player look like he cared less than Thornton did tonight

Have you not seen Spezza play?

Not that his word is gospel, but I was listening to Pierre McGuire on Team1200 this morning and his take on it is the entire Sharks team is lacking in 2nd effort.

[Mattchew]

Bitter bitter Sens fans. For what it’s worth you all seem to forget that all the “specialist” did not see the Bruins make the post season this year before the season started. Now they are the god of all teams. Don’t forget that they got man handled 8 straight games last year by the Habs with this the same team that eliminated the habs this year. The only difference is injuries. That’s a fact and no one can deny it. Habs finished first in the east with 104 points. They also had close to record season start this year and were top 4 in the east for quite some time. It went downhill when Lang was injured.

how about Mark Streit. MTL's PP got them 104 points last year.

As for Joe....its to bad, but there is no excuse for his play. Looks like he just doesn't want it bad enough. Every player has Play-off pressure, some can handle it and Joe cant. I hope he turns it around.