Who's to blame for the Sens disappointing finish?

[broken27]

Too all those who are arguing with me about Jagr vs. Gretzky (or insert other notable).

My point isn't stats, "perceived leadership ability", historical triumphs, HHOF eligibility, or anything like that. My point is that Jagr is the best hockey player of all time. This means he has more skill than anyone before or since his entry into the NHL.

Ask a skills coach, not a head coach. Try to view it in terms of Jagr's physical package, his speed, his ability to singlehandedly walk through entire teams, his ability to perform regardless of what crappy situation he finds himself in (PIT, WAS, NYR are hardly comparable to EDM of the early 80s).

I should know better than to argue this point with Canadians, since invariably they defend their own. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion as well, no matter how wrong you might be (as some really clever person posted for me above :shake ).

For the record, second on my list is again not one of the traditional picks for best player. I'd go as far as to say Steve Yzerman is the best person in pro sports ever. Only the second best hockey player though...

Dan

[mberube]

Too all those who are arguing with me about Jagr vs. Gretzky (or insert other notable).

My point isn't stats, "perceived leadership ability", historical triumphs, HHOF eligibility, or anything like that. My point is that Jagr is the best hockey player of all time. This means he has more skill than anyone before or since his entry into the NHL.

Ask a skills coach, not a head coach. Try to view it in terms of Jagr's physical package, his speed, his ability to singlehandedly walk through entire teams, his ability to perform regardless of what crappy situation he finds himself in (PIT, WAS, NYR are hardly comparable to EDM of the early 80s).

I should know better than to argue this point with Canadians, since invariably they defend their own. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion as well, no matter how wrong you might be (as some really clever person posted for me above :shake ).

For the record, second on my list is again not one of the traditional picks for best player. I'd go as far as to say Steve Yzerman is the best person in pro sports ever. Only the second best hockey player though...

Dan

You are stubborn!!!! I like that!

I resent that you categories our opinions to the fact that we Canadians vote for Canadians. Canada is a multicultural country. Immigrants today are majorities. I don’t care if the player is Canadian, Mexican or from mars. If he is good, he is good.

[Big_duck]

Too all those who are arguing with me about Jagr vs. Gretzky (or insert other notable).

My point isn't stats, "perceived leadership ability", historical triumphs, HHOF eligibility, or anything like that. My point is that Jagr is the best hockey player of all time. This means he has more skill than anyone before or since his entry into the NHL.

Ask a skills coach, not a head coach. Try to view it in terms of Jagr's physical package, his speed, his ability to singlehandedly walk through entire teams, his ability to perform regardless of what crappy situation he finds himself in (PIT, WAS, NYR are hardly comparable to EDM of the early 80s).

I should know better than to argue this point with Canadians, since invariably they defend their own. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion as well, no matter how wrong you might be (as some really clever person posted for me above :shake ).

For the record, second on my list is again not one of the traditional picks for best player. I'd go as far as to say Steve Yzerman is the best person in pro sports ever. Only the second best hockey player though...

Dan

Sorry Broken, you lost me. Over time, many many top professionals have shown the same skill level as Jagr, heck off the top of my head, I can name three Habs alone: Richard, Beliveau and Lafleur. Not to mention, Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Hull, Most of the 72 Soviet Red Army Team etc, etc.

At the end of the day, you have to consider accomplishment when stating all-time greatness.

And I realize that most of my examples are Canadian, but that isn't patriotism, just what I have seen. Who knows, maybe the best chzec of all time was Stan Makita. And for the record, I don't know who the best hockey player of all time is.

[broken27]

Sorry Broken, you lost me. Over time, many many top professionals have shown the same skill level as Jagr, heck off the top of my head, I can name three Habs alone: Richard, Beliveau and Lafleur. Not to mention, Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Hull, Most of the 72 Soviet Red Army Team etc, etc.

At the end of the day, you have to consider accomplishment when stating all-time greatness.

And I realize that most of my examples are Canadian, but that isn't patriotism, just what I have seen. Who knows, maybe the best chzec of all time was Stan Makita. And for the record, I don't know who the best hockey player of all time is.

I realize that perhaps my choice of words were bad, because essentially I mean that it boils down to opinion, because "best" doesn't have a clear definition... Didn't mean the "defending their own" comment in a real negative way... Just about the exposure and therefore partiality factor... I'm the same way with my Czech players/teams....

Cheers,
Dan

[4jag]

Best of all time is my bud Gretz, hands down, there is no point even debating it.

ESPN's hockey experts have Jagr at #21
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/mailbagESPN?event_id=5290

Of course you can have a differing opinon, but Jagr? Really? I could see how you may consider him the most offensively skilled (although I don't) but best player ever - no way.

[broken27]

Best of all time is my bud Gretz, hands down, there is no point even debating it.

ESPN's hockey experts have Jagr at #21
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/mailbagESPN?event_id=5290

Of course you can have a differing opinon, but Jagr? Really? I could see how you may consider him the most offensively skilled (although I don't) but best player ever - no way.

No point in even debating it??? That's a pretty silly statement. You don't think a goalie or defenceman could be better than Gretzky? Then again, I suppose that since ESPN has him rated at #1 (considering their pitiful hockey coverage), that's all the proof we need....

:shake

Dan

[4jag]

Of course the best ever could have been a goalie or a d-man, but it isn't.

I actually asked Kevin Stevens who he thought the best ever was when I met him at Wayne's fanatasy camp. Now if anyone is in a postion to judge it is someone who has played both with and against Gretz and Jagr, not to mention Mario too. Without hesitation his answer was the great one, 99. Period.

Forget about ESPN Dan, Gretzky provided all the proof we need.