Who's to blame for the Sens disappointing finish?

[mberube]

If White wasn't from Kanata, He would be no more then an occasional callup from Bingo.

Do you really think they play him cause he is a local boy? If so, you now nothing about hockey. Playing somebody that does not have the talent hurts you more then it helps you.

Players on a team must have different abilities and talent levels. That’s what makes a team. Yes Bonk has more talent then White but White plays with determination and Bonk plays with skill level. Bonk will be an easy trade cause GM's will line up to pick him.

[broken27]

Do you really think they play him cause he is a local boy? If so, you now nothing about hockey.

Mike, I guess I don't know anything about hockey, which is scary since I cover the Senators as a job. I can't understand any reason why White would play and Spezza would sit. There's plenty of PK guys on the Ottawa roster without White. That is his only "special skill", which is generally where teams will play their marginal players so that the good players can rest.

Sadly, the anti-Bonk sentiment in Ottawa will cost us another player. Same thing happened with Demitra and Straka back in the early days.....

Dan

[mberube]

Mike, I guess I don't know anything about hockey, which is scary since I cover the Senators as a job. I can't understand any reason why White would play and Spezza would sit. There's plenty of PK guys on the Ottawa roster without White. That is his only "special skill", which is generally where teams will play their marginal players so that the good players can rest.

Sadly, the anti-Bonk sentiment in Ottawa will cost us another player. Same thing happened with Demitra and Straka back in the early days.....

Dan

Is it your honest opinion that White is playing cause he is from Kanata?

[broken27]

Is it your honest opinion that White is playing cause he is from Kanata?

That certainly has something to do with it. Ottawa as a franchise has always wanted a local boy they could use to generate a connection with the team. It's why we tried to sign Garry Galley a few years ago.

Is it the only reason he plays? I doubt it. I know Jacques Martin was really big on White, which likely also played a factor.

But you have to wonder why he was never drafted (signed by CHI as a free agent), and was unable to earn a full-time roster spot on a crappy team like Chicago. Fortunately it didn't cost Ottawa anything to get him, as we signed him as a UFA.

I don't think he's in the top-4 on Ottawa's depth chart for centermen, which should translate into him not playing. For some reason (don't underestimate the marketing value of playing a Kanata boy up in the media), he plays on the TOP LINE.....(???)

Doesn't matter to me anymore, my hockey season is over, golf time!

Dan

[mberube]

But you have to wonder why he was never drafted (signed by CHI as a free agent), and was unable to earn a full-time roster spot on a crappy team like Chicago. Fortunately it didn't cost Ottawa anything to get him, as we signed him as a UFA.

Dan

Don't forget that Martin St-Lois was never drafted and before two years ago he was an NHL nobody!

The reason why White was playing and Spetza was, only Jacques knows. Spetza is way better then White but Spetza makes stupid passes when he is under pressure and that a no no with Jacques. Jacques will play you if you work harder defensively then offensively.

Look at Hosa. He works hard both ways.

White gives you a physical presents on the ice and that’s probably why Martin played him. Spetza could not fill that roll.

But I do agree that Spetza should have been playing.

[broken27]

Spetza is way better then White but Spetza makes stupid passes when he is under pressure and that a no no with Jacques. Jacques will play you if you work harder defensively then offensively.

White gives you a physical presents on the ice and that’s probably why Martin played him. Spetza could not fill that roll.

But I do agree that Spetza should have been playing.

I'd like nothing more than to agree with you about this, but Spezza was a +22 this season, so he can't be called a defensive liability. White was +12, which means either he's worse defensively or not as good offensively, or both.

As for White providing a physical presence, I don't think anyone's going to confuse him with a power forward. The only hit he threw in the series that got noticed was the one he missed and cut his face open with.... Besides which, one problem Ottawa had against the Leafs is trying to match them physically. Even with some grinders like Smolinski, Varada and Fisher, this is still a skating team, not a hitting team. I noticed in game 5 (my wife pointed it out too) that Ottawa was so busy trying to hit Toronto that it got them off their game plan and tired them out.

I'd prefer watching European Elite League hockey over NHL any day, but sadly the TV networks won't pick up the feed for those games.

Dan

[powerlefty]

But then compare plus/minus
Dan

OK. Plus/minus: White +12, Bonk +2 in the regular season. White -1, Bonk +2 in the playoffs which didn't last long enough to be statistically meaningful. Another telling stat is faceoffs - one of the most important tasks for a centre, especially on the powerplay. Bonk ranked 175th in the league out of 239 forwards and White ranked 72nd. In the playoffs 86th and 60th respectively out of 111. This translates directly into efficiency on the pwerplay since losing a faceoff in the offensive zone to start the powerplay usually results in losing the first 30 seconds of the PP trying to retrive the puck, advance it into the offensive zone and get set up again.

Is Bonk a useful player. Probably as a 3rd line centre and possibly as a checker but he is getting paid first- or second-line money and plays a lot smaller than his size. The Sens should either dump him for some draft picks before the draft or just walk away and not even give him a qualifying offer this summer. The team is relatively rich in centres - White, Fisher, Spezza, Smolinski, Vermette - of which White, Spezza, Fisher or Smolinksi could all play on either the first- or second-lines and do better than Bonk has.

[Big_duck]

OK. Plus/minus: White +12, Bonk +2 in the regular season. White -1, Bonk +2 in the playoffs which didn't last long enough to be statistically meaningful. Another telling stat is faceoffs - one of the most important tasks for a centre, especially on the powerplay. Bonk ranked 175th in the league out of 239 forwards and White ranked 72nd. In the playoffs 86th and 60th respectively out of 111. This translates directly into efficiency on the pwerplay since losing a faceoff in the offensive zone to start the powerplay usually results in losing the first 30 seconds of the PP trying to retrive the puck, advance it into the offensive zone and get set up again.

Is Bonk a useful player. Probably as a 3rd line centre and possibly as a checker but he is getting paid first- or second-line money and plays a lot smaller than his size. The Sens should either dump him for some draft picks before the draft or just walk away and not even give him a qualifying offer this summer. The team is relatively rich in centres - White, Fisher, Spezza, Smolinski, Vermette - of which White, Spezza, Fisher or Smolinksi could all play on either the first- or second-lines and do better than Bonk has.

Sometimes there is no figuring out how a combination works, but Hossa definately plays better with Bonk then without.

Until Bonk broke his foot (blocking a point shot by the way), Hossa was near the top in League scoring. Bonk left the lineup and Hossa's production went way down. This is not a statistical anomaly, this is fact.

[broken27]

Is Bonk a useful player. Probably as a 3rd line centre and possibly as a checker but he is getting paid first- or second-line money and plays a lot smaller than his size. The Sens should either dump him for some draft picks before the draft or just walk away and not even give him a qualifying offer this summer. The team is relatively rich in centres - White, Fisher, Spezza, Smolinski, Vermette - of which White, Spezza, Fisher or Smolinksi could all play on either the first- or second-lines and do better than Bonk has.

White can't play Bonk's role AT ALL, and as for the other guys, Vermette is being used as a LW, not a center. That leaves Fisher, Spezza, Smolinski and Bonk as your 4 centers.

If you trade Bonk, may as well trade Hossa and Havlat too. They're all best buddies, and have amazing chemistry together on the ice. You obviously have something against Bonk for some reason, which again I think is a product of crappy media slants.

Trade White (wait, nobody would give you anything for this bum). Give White away!

Dan

[mberube]

White can't play Bonk's role AT ALL, and as for the other guys, Vermette is being used as a LW, not a center. That leaves Fisher, Spezza, Smolinski and Bonk as your 4 centers.

If you trade Bonk, may as well trade Hossa and Havlat too. They're all best buddies, and have amazing chemistry together on the ice. You obviously have something against Bonk for some reason, which again I think is a product of crappy media slants.

Trade White (wait, nobody would give you anything for this bum). Give White away!

Dan

I would say that you have something against White. Bonk's name always comes up when the Sens get eliminated. If they fire Martin for not being intense in the playoff, you must trade Bonk and Lalime for the same reasons. Don’t get me wrong, Bonk is a very talented player but he is not the guys that you need to win the cup. If you compare Bonk to Domi, anybody will say that Bonk is allot more talented then Domi but Domi made a difference in that series, Bonk didn’t.

As for not getting traded cause you are good buddies with the best players on the team, Well it does not work that way. I personally know a couple of guys who plays and played in the NHL, friends or not, when your time has come your gone!

[The Shtick]

I would say that you have something against White. Bonk's name always comes up when the Sens get eliminated. If they fire Martin for not being intense in the playoff, you must trade Bonk and Lalime for the same reasons. Don’t get me wrong, Bonk is a very talented player but he is not the guys that you need to win the cup. If you compare Bonk to Domi, anybody will say that Bonk is allot more talented then Domi but Domi made a difference in that series, Bonk didn’t.

As for not getting traded cause you are good buddies with the best players on the team, Well it does not work that way. I personally know a couple of guys who plays and played in the NHL, friends or not, when your time has come your gone!

Are you saying that people like Curtis Leschyshyn and Rob Ray are there for a reason other than to provide leadership in the dressing room?

[mberube]

Are you saying that people like Curtis Leschyshyn and Rob Ray are there for a reason other than to provide leadership in the dressing room?

WHAT!!!! :jitter

Not sure how or where you got that out of my previous post?

[The Shtick]

Sorry, I mean that these guys are people known for their off-ice skills. They are "buddies" in the dressing room and provide leadership there. They hardly see any action on the ice but the team always seems to keep them around.....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As for not getting traded cause you are good buddies with the best players on the team, Well it does not work that way. I personally know a couple of guys who plays and played in the NHL, friends or not, when your time has come your gone!"
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[broken27]

I would say that you have something against White. Bonk's name always comes up when the Sens get eliminated. If they fire Martin for not being intense in the playoff, you must trade Bonk and Lalime for the same reasons. Don’t get me wrong, Bonk is a very talented player but he is not the guys that you need to win the cup. If you compare Bonk to Domi, anybody will say that Bonk is allot more talented then Domi but Domi made a difference in that series, Bonk didn’t.

As for not getting traded cause you are good buddies with the best players on the team, Well it does not work that way. I personally know a couple of guys who plays and played in the NHL, friends or not, when your time has come your gone!

The only thing I have against White is that he lacks any worthwhile skill and takes up ice time from someone who does.

Bonk didn't make a difference on the scoresheet of that series, but was extremely effective at shutting down Toronto's top line. I don't think White's contribution was equal to that, so again, if you're going to start trading people, I suggest #28.

As for not getting traded because he's good buddies with the best players, it does make a difference and it does work that way in this case. Ottawa had a potential deal lined up to acquire Jeff O'Neill from Carolina, but Bonk was part of that trade. Several people in the Ottawa roster approached management with concerns about Bonk being traded, and subsequently the deal went nowhere. If you trade Bonk, you may as well deal Havlat, Hossa and Chara at the same time, because none of those guys will play for you. Don't believe me, watch if it happens...

As for Shtick's point, Ray is on the roster for no reason other than his leadership, but Leschyshyn shoulda played instead of that bum DeVries.

Dan

[mberube]

Sorry, I mean that these guys are people known for their off-ice skills. They are "buddies" in the dressing room and provide leadership there. They hardly see any action on the ice but the team always seems to keep them around.....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As for not getting traded cause you are good buddies with the best players on the team, Well it does not work that way. I personally know a couple of guys who plays and played in the NHL, friends or not, when your time has come your gone!"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Friends or not, when your time has come your gone! Ask Wayne!

[mberube]

If you trade Bonk, you may as well deal Havlat, Hossa and Chara at the same time, because none of those guys will play for you. Don't believe me, watch if it happens...

As for Shtick's point, Ray is on the roster for no reason other than his leadership, but Leschyshyn shoulda played instead of that bum DeVries.

Dan

I agree on Leschyshyn should have played.

As for Havlat, Hossa and Chara not playing if Bonk is traded, if they are pro's they will play where they are wanted. If they are big babies, they will finish their career like Jagr. One thing is certain, they will not finish their career playing together.

If friendship is so important tell me why Havlat boycotted the team and asked to be traded when he did not get the deal he wanted.

I know there are allot of big babies in the NHL but Chara and Hosa don’t give me that impression.

Like you sead, we’ll see!

[Big_duck]

Friends or not, when your time has come your gone! Ask Wayne!

Broken may be stretching things a little when he says friendship, but chemistry definitley. Again, Hossa's performance dropped when Bonk was out of the lineup and/or Hossa was moved to a different line. Don't believe me? just look at the Rangers Tons and Tons of talent, no chemistry.

[broken27]

I consider Jagr the best player of all time, and while I don't like the fact that he ended up in New York, I will defend his behaviour. In Pittsburgh, a city in which he kept the team competitive while Mario "ultra-baby" Lemieux was retired because of too much clutch-and-grab, the fans instantly turned their backs on Jagr when "ultra-baby" returned. It's as though he didn't exist. So he asked for a trade, and was dealt to Washington.

In Washington, Jagr was at odds with the coach, who subsequently got fired over the issue. The owner decided that in order to keep the team operational, he would have to trim roughly $22-million from the payroll. Easy to do by moving Jagr, you're halfway there! Stupidly, the Caps ended up with Anson Carter, but still paying Jagr. Total salary paid for Carter to play was $10-million.

Nothing to do with Jagr though. It's all about business and money.

Comparing Havlat, Bonk or Hossa to Jagr is the biggest compliment you can pay. I'm sure that's not how you meant it.....

[mberube]

I consider Jagr the best player of all time, and while I don't like the fact that he ended up in New York, I will defend his behaviour. In Pittsburgh, a city in which he kept the team competitive while Mario "ultra-baby" Lemieux was retired because of too much clutch-and-grab, the fans instantly turned their backs on Jagr when "ultra-baby" returned. It's as though he didn't exist. So he asked for a trade, and was dealt to Washington.

In Washington, Jagr was at odds with the coach, who subsequently got fired over the issue. The owner decided that in order to keep the team operational, he would have to trim roughly $22-million from the payroll. Easy to do by moving Jagr, you're halfway there! Stupidly, the Caps ended up with Anson Carter, but still paying Jagr. Total salary paid for Carter to play was $10-million.

Nothing to do with Jagr though. It's all about business and money.

Comparing Havlat, Bonk or Hossa to Jagr is the biggest compliment you can pay. I'm sure that's not how you meant it.....

I was not comparing their talent.

Jagr being the best player of all times….. NOT! Best Czeck of all time yes! But I can understand where you’re coming from, Jagr being your countryman.

As for Lemieux complaining about the clutching and grabbing, he is right. Hockey is getting to be more and more ridicules. One incident is a penalty in the first and it’s not in the third. What is that all about! Take away 10 teams in the NHL and then you will see good hockey. More teams, less talent, more players that cant keep up the paste equals more clutching and grabbing.

The best hockey to me is the junior world championship during the holidays and international tournaments. At least referees in Europe know how to call a game. :reallymad

[broken27]

My estimation of Jagr being the best hockey player of all time is just a coincidence as I am Czech as well. I evalute him as the best of all time on talent. He'll never put up Gretzky numbers, but that has a lot to do with the eras in which they play. He'll never be able to play on a team like the Oilers of the early 80s, which was a contributing factor in Gretzky's statistical output.

At any rate, I agree with you about European/International hockey being the best in terms of entertainment. I've had the priviledge of attending a Russia/Czechs game in the past, and I can tell you that the passing and skill level of the game (not necessarily the players) was well higher than the NHL. These guys are artists!

Agreed that canning about 10 teams would make the NHL better. The tough part is figuring out which teams to disband.

Dan

[powerlefty]

I consider Jagr the best player of all time,

?????????????? You must be joking. Maybe the best player for a few years (1996-2000 or so) but not of all time. He has no leadership skills whatsoever, is a coach killer (he even killed the coaching career of a handpicked Czech coach {Hlinka?} who was brought in just to soothe his ego) and is an over-paid baby who plays only in one direction. He takes a back seat to a few others for "best of all time". Names like Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Belliveau, Tretiak, Kharlamov, Lafleur, Messier, Orr, Leetch, Coffey are in front of him. They all won more often, won bigger, dominated longer and/or redfined how a position was played far more than Jagr.

[broken27]

?????????????? You must be joking. Maybe the best player for a few years (1996-2000 or so) but not of all time. He has no leadership skills whatsoever, is a coach killer (he even killed the coaching career of a handpicked Czech coach {Hlinka?} who was brought in just to soothe his ego) and is an over-paid baby who plays only in one direction. He takes a back seat to a few others for "best of all time". Names like Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Belliveau, Tretiak, Kharlamov, Lafleur, Messier, Orr, Leetch, Coffey are in front of him. They all won more often, won bigger, dominated longer and/or redfined how a position was played far more than Jagr.

And who gave you the right to make my opinion for me? What the hell do you know about Jagr's leadership skills? Do you follow him when he plays for his country? Coach killer? Lemieux's return was what ended Hlinka's career buddy, don't kid yourself.

Maybe you should go bunker in with some Don Cherry videos, sounds like you get your opinions directly from there anyway....

Dan

[LobWedge]

The best player of all time, bar none, is Gretzky, and here's why:

Ignoring the obvious (holding or sharing 61 NHL records), he did more with less than any player in history. No size, no strength, a horrible skater, couldn't shoot a puck through a wet piece of Kleenex. But, every time he touched the puck it was like watching Neo dodge bullets in the Matrix.

He made everyone around him better. He made opposing forwards and defensemen look stupid, he made opposing goalies look even worse.

[broken27]

The best player of all time, bar none, is Gretzky, and here's why:

Ignoring the obvious (holding or sharing 61 NHL records), he did more with less than any player in history. No size, no strength, a horrible skater, couldn't shoot a puck through a wet piece of Kleenex. But, every time he touched the puck it was like watching Neo dodge bullets in the Matrix.

He made everyone around him better. He made opposing forwards and defensemen look stupid, he made opposing goalies look even worse.

Gretzky did more with less? Kurri, Tikkanen, Messier, Coffey, et al....

Laughable. He was a damn fine hockey player, but as you clearly pointed out, not as skilled as Jagr.

My point isn't about impact on the game, or setting historical targets for future players.

Jagr is simply the epitome of "hockey player".

He is big, strong, can play through or around you, can score and pass, hits, great at puck possession, most lethal breakaway/penalty shot scoring ability, is indefencible, and statistically is one of the finest performers of the last decade.

Anyone who argues about leadership should consult his international resume, and then form their opinions.

Dan

[powerlefty]

And who gave you the right to make my opinion for me? What the hell do you know about Jagr's leadership skills? Do you follow him when he plays for his country? Coach killer? Lemieux's return was what ended Hlinka's career buddy, don't kid yourself.

Maybe you should go bunker in with some Don Cherry videos, sounds like you get your opinions directly from there anyway....

Dan

You are corect - you are entitled to your opinion - however wrong it may be. As for the shot about Don Cherry, read my list -Tretiak and Kharlamov would not be on a Chrerry list. I formulate my own opinions and I stand by my comment about him being a coach killer - Hlinka and Cassidy both sucked up to him and still gut turfed.

[LobWedge]

Gretzky did more with less? Kurri, Tikkanen, Messier, Coffey, et al....

Laughable. He was a damn fine hockey player, but as you clearly pointed out, not as skilled as Jagr.

My point isn't about impact on the game, or setting historical targets for future players.

Jagr is simply the epitome of "hockey player".

He is big, strong, can play through or around you, can score and pass, hits, great at puck possession, most lethal breakaway/penalty shot scoring ability, is indefencible, and statistically is one of the finest performers of the last decade.

Anyone who argues about leadership should consult his international resume, and then form their opinions.

Dan

I meant more with less himself. He looks more like a computer programmer than a hockey player. But he worked harder than anyone to develop the skills that made him great.

As far as stats go, Gretzky put up numbers better than anyone ever.

How many cups has Jagr won as the so called "leader" of the Penguins or the Capitals? The Penguins went downhill in a hurry after Mario retired the first time. The Caps just plain suck. Jagr has had plenty of chances to prove himself as a leader with talent comparable to what Gretzky had surrounding him, but has done nothing to establish himself as a leader.

Does Jagr deserve to be mentioned among the greats of the game? Definitely. Has he put up the numbers to get him in to the Hall of Fame? Probably. Is he the greatest of all time? Not even close.

[Big_duck]

He looks more like a computer programmer than a hockey player.

HEY I resent that ....
:reallymad

[LobWedge]

HEY I resent that ....
:reallymad

Okay, a really athletic computer programmer.

[mberube]

Gretzky did more with less? Kurri, Tikkanen, Messier, Coffey, et al....
Laughable. He was a damn fine hockey player, but as you clearly pointed out, not as skilled as Jagr.
My point isn't about impact on the game, or setting historical targets for future players.
Jagr is simply the epitome of "hockey player".
He is big, strong, can play through or around you, can score and pass, hits, great at puck possession, most lethal breakaway/penalty shot scoring ability, is indefencible, and statistically is one of the finest performers of the last decade.
Anyone who argues about leadership should consult his international resume, and then form their opinions.
Dan

Gretzky scored over 120 points in more then one season after being traded from EDM’s powerhouse team. Gretzky makes a 40+ scorer out of any good player in the league.

You may think that Lemieux is a baby but without Lemieux, Jagr would of never won a cup. Jagr is maybe stronger on the puck and make most players look stupid when they chalange him one on one but in most peoples opinion is that Jagr does not come close to Lemieux and Gretzky.

[Ty Webb]

For me it was the lack of ability to adapt, so therefore the coaching staff including Martin. Ottawa won the first game well, their powerplay was firing, so what did Quinn et al do? Well they worked out how too shut down the powerplay.

What did Ottawa do when they were continually pushed to the outside? Nothing! they just kept playing the same way game after game and sure it produced a couple of wins but in the end the Sens had no answer to Quinns tactics.

Lalime was reasonably solid in most games they can't blame him because if the Ottawa coaching stff had done their home work instead of stubbornly resting on thier laurels then the series would have been (at least 4-1) to Ottawa.

Good luck Toronto, you'll need it against the flyers because Hitch is also a good tactician and players like Roenick and others will noty put in the kind of displays as Bonk and De Vries.

I have to agree. Ottawa tried to play their game and Toronto adapted to it. Case in point: Spezza. He has one move when in one on one and always goes to it.

The Sens were out coached. This includes game planning and motivating players. The one game they put traffic in front of Belfour, they won. Look at Philly and Brashear. I think Ottawa has a better team but didn't wear their playoff hat.