View Poll Results: Who is to blame for the Senators disappointing finish?
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04-22-2004 03:24 PM #31Originally Posted by Big_duck
Players on a team must have different abilities and talent levels. That’s what makes a team. Yes Bonk has more talent then White but White plays with determination and Bonk plays with skill level. Bonk will be an easy trade cause GM's will line up to pick him.Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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04-22-2004 03:32 PM #32Originally Posted by mberube
Sadly, the anti-Bonk sentiment in Ottawa will cost us another player. Same thing happened with Demitra and Straka back in the early days.....
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04-22-2004 03:37 PM #33Originally Posted by broken27Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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04-22-2004 03:50 PM #34Originally Posted by mberube
Is it the only reason he plays? I doubt it. I know Jacques Martin was really big on White, which likely also played a factor.
But you have to wonder why he was never drafted (signed by CHI as a free agent), and was unable to earn a full-time roster spot on a crappy team like Chicago. Fortunately it didn't cost Ottawa anything to get him, as we signed him as a UFA.
I don't think he's in the top-4 on Ottawa's depth chart for centermen, which should translate into him not playing. For some reason (don't underestimate the marketing value of playing a Kanata boy up in the media), he plays on the TOP LINE.....(???)
Doesn't matter to me anymore, my hockey season is over, golf time!
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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04-22-2004 04:03 PM #35Originally Posted by broken27
The reason why White was playing and Spetza was, only Jacques knows. Spetza is way better then White but Spetza makes stupid passes when he is under pressure and that a no no with Jacques. Jacques will play you if you work harder defensively then offensively.
Look at Hosa. He works hard both ways.
White gives you a physical presents on the ice and that’s probably why Martin played him. Spetza could not fill that roll.
But I do agree that Spetza should have been playing.Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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04-22-2004 04:13 PM #36Originally Posted by mberube
As for White providing a physical presence, I don't think anyone's going to confuse him with a power forward. The only hit he threw in the series that got noticed was the one he missed and cut his face open with.... Besides which, one problem Ottawa had against the Leafs is trying to match them physically. Even with some grinders like Smolinski, Varada and Fisher, this is still a skating team, not a hitting team. I noticed in game 5 (my wife pointed it out too) that Ottawa was so busy trying to hit Toronto that it got them off their game plan and tired them out.
I'd prefer watching European Elite League hockey over NHL any day, but sadly the TV networks won't pick up the feed for those games.
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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04-23-2004 10:35 AM #37
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Originally Posted by broken27
Is Bonk a useful player. Probably as a 3rd line centre and possibly as a checker but he is getting paid first- or second-line money and plays a lot smaller than his size. The Sens should either dump him for some draft picks before the draft or just walk away and not even give him a qualifying offer this summer. The team is relatively rich in centres - White, Fisher, Spezza, Smolinski, Vermette - of which White, Spezza, Fisher or Smolinksi could all play on either the first- or second-lines and do better than Bonk has.
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04-23-2004 10:51 AM #38Big_duckGuestOriginally Posted by powerlefty
Sometimes there is no figuring out how a combination works, but Hossa definately plays better with Bonk then without.
Until Bonk broke his foot (blocking a point shot by the way), Hossa was near the top in League scoring. Bonk left the lineup and Hossa's production went way down. This is not a statistical anomaly, this is fact.
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04-23-2004 10:56 AM #39Originally Posted by powerlefty
If you trade Bonk, may as well trade Hossa and Havlat too. They're all best buddies, and have amazing chemistry together on the ice. You obviously have something against Bonk for some reason, which again I think is a product of crappy media slants.
Trade White (wait, nobody would give you anything for this bum). Give White away!
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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04-23-2004 11:47 AM #40Originally Posted by broken27
As for not getting traded cause you are good buddies with the best players on the team, Well it does not work that way. I personally know a couple of guys who plays and played in the NHL, friends or not, when your time has come your gone!Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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04-23-2004 01:00 PM #41Originally Posted by mberube
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04-23-2004 01:46 PM #42Originally Posted by The Shtick
Not sure how or where you got that out of my previous post?Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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04-23-2004 01:52 PM #43
Sorry, I mean that these guys are people known for their off-ice skills. They are "buddies" in the dressing room and provide leadership there. They hardly see any action on the ice but the team always seems to keep them around.....
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"As for not getting traded cause you are good buddies with the best players on the team, Well it does not work that way. I personally know a couple of guys who plays and played in the NHL, friends or not, when your time has come your gone!"
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04-23-2004 02:09 PM #44Originally Posted by mberube
Bonk didn't make a difference on the scoresheet of that series, but was extremely effective at shutting down Toronto's top line. I don't think White's contribution was equal to that, so again, if you're going to start trading people, I suggest #28.
As for not getting traded because he's good buddies with the best players, it does make a difference and it does work that way in this case. Ottawa had a potential deal lined up to acquire Jeff O'Neill from Carolina, but Bonk was part of that trade. Several people in the Ottawa roster approached management with concerns about Bonk being traded, and subsequently the deal went nowhere. If you trade Bonk, you may as well deal Havlat, Hossa and Chara at the same time, because none of those guys will play for you. Don't believe me, watch if it happens...
As for Shtick's point, Ray is on the roster for no reason other than his leadership, but Leschyshyn shoulda played instead of that bum DeVries.
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04-23-2004 02:14 PM #45Originally Posted by The Shtick
Friends or not, when your time has come your gone! Ask Wayne!Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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04-23-2004 02:30 PM #46Originally Posted by broken27
As for Havlat, Hossa and Chara not playing if Bonk is traded, if they are pro's they will play where they are wanted. If they are big babies, they will finish their career like Jagr. One thing is certain, they will not finish their career playing together.
If friendship is so important tell me why Havlat boycotted the team and asked to be traded when he did not get the deal he wanted.
I know there are allot of big babies in the NHL but Chara and Hosa don’t give me that impression.
Like you sead, we’ll see!Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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04-23-2004 02:38 PM #47Big_duckGuestOriginally Posted by mberube
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04-23-2004 02:39 PM #48
I consider Jagr the best player of all time, and while I don't like the fact that he ended up in New York, I will defend his behaviour. In Pittsburgh, a city in which he kept the team competitive while Mario "ultra-baby" Lemieux was retired because of too much clutch-and-grab, the fans instantly turned their backs on Jagr when "ultra-baby" returned. It's as though he didn't exist. So he asked for a trade, and was dealt to Washington.
In Washington, Jagr was at odds with the coach, who subsequently got fired over the issue. The owner decided that in order to keep the team operational, he would have to trim roughly $22-million from the payroll. Easy to do by moving Jagr, you're halfway there! Stupidly, the Caps ended up with Anson Carter, but still paying Jagr. Total salary paid for Carter to play was $10-million.
Nothing to do with Jagr though. It's all about business and money.
Comparing Havlat, Bonk or Hossa to Jagr is the biggest compliment you can pay. I'm sure that's not how you meant it.....[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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04-23-2004 03:07 PM #49Originally Posted by broken27
Jagr being the best player of all times….. NOT! Best Czeck of all time yes! But I can understand where you’re coming from, Jagr being your countryman.
As for Lemieux complaining about the clutching and grabbing, he is right. Hockey is getting to be more and more ridicules. One incident is a penalty in the first and it’s not in the third. What is that all about! Take away 10 teams in the NHL and then you will see good hockey. More teams, less talent, more players that cant keep up the paste equals more clutching and grabbing.
The best hockey to me is the junior world championship during the holidays and international tournaments. At least referees in Europe know how to call a game. :reallymadStrive for perfection, but never expect it!
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04-23-2004 04:04 PM #50
My estimation of Jagr being the best hockey player of all time is just a coincidence as I am Czech as well. I evalute him as the best of all time on talent. He'll never put up Gretzky numbers, but that has a lot to do with the eras in which they play. He'll never be able to play on a team like the Oilers of the early 80s, which was a contributing factor in Gretzky's statistical output.
At any rate, I agree with you about European/International hockey being the best in terms of entertainment. I've had the priviledge of attending a Russia/Czechs game in the past, and I can tell you that the passing and skill level of the game (not necessarily the players) was well higher than the NHL. These guys are artists!
Agreed that canning about 10 teams would make the NHL better. The tough part is figuring out which teams to disband.
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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04-23-2004 04:09 PM #51
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Originally Posted by broken27
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04-23-2004 04:16 PM #52Originally Posted by powerlefty
Maybe you should go bunker in with some Don Cherry videos, sounds like you get your opinions directly from there anyway....
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04-23-2004 07:32 PM #53
The best player of all time, bar none, is Gretzky, and here's why:
Ignoring the obvious (holding or sharing 61 NHL records), he did more with less than any player in history. No size, no strength, a horrible skater, couldn't shoot a puck through a wet piece of Kleenex. But, every time he touched the puck it was like watching Neo dodge bullets in the Matrix.
He made everyone around him better. He made opposing forwards and defensemen look stupid, he made opposing goalies look even worse.When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.
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04-23-2004 11:54 PM #54Originally Posted by LobWedge
Laughable. He was a damn fine hockey player, but as you clearly pointed out, not as skilled as Jagr.
My point isn't about impact on the game, or setting historical targets for future players.
Jagr is simply the epitome of "hockey player".
He is big, strong, can play through or around you, can score and pass, hits, great at puck possession, most lethal breakaway/penalty shot scoring ability, is indefencible, and statistically is one of the finest performers of the last decade.
Anyone who argues about leadership should consult his international resume, and then form their opinions.
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04-25-2004 12:11 PM #55
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Originally Posted by broken27
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04-25-2004 09:03 PM #56Originally Posted by broken27
As far as stats go, Gretzky put up numbers better than anyone ever.
How many cups has Jagr won as the so called "leader" of the Penguins or the Capitals? The Penguins went downhill in a hurry after Mario retired the first time. The Caps just plain suck. Jagr has had plenty of chances to prove himself as a leader with talent comparable to what Gretzky had surrounding him, but has done nothing to establish himself as a leader.
Does Jagr deserve to be mentioned among the greats of the game? Definitely. Has he put up the numbers to get him in to the Hall of Fame? Probably. Is he the greatest of all time? Not even close.When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.
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04-26-2004 08:15 AM #57Big_duckGuestOriginally Posted by LobWedge
:reallymad
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04-26-2004 08:32 AM #58Originally Posted by Big_duckWhen applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.
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04-26-2004 08:44 AM #59Originally Posted by broken27
You may think that Lemieux is a baby but without Lemieux, Jagr would of never won a cup. Jagr is maybe stronger on the puck and make most players look stupid when they chalange him one on one but in most peoples opinion is that Jagr does not come close to Lemieux and Gretzky.Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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04-26-2004 12:04 PM #60Ty WebbGuestOriginally Posted by Hank Hill
The Sens were out coached. This includes game planning and motivating players. The one game they put traffic in front of Belfour, they won. Look at Philly and Brashear. I think Ottawa has a better team but didn't wear their playoff hat.
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