GO figure- Your ultimate stance

[Chieflongtee]

For years I have tried to set up square to the ball. And before you asked I checked more than once if my feet were set up properly. And for years I have read that a closed stance promotes a draw and that a open stance promotes a fade and a square stance promotes a straight ball. It turns out that for me a square stance will produce a more often than not a block or as push while an open stance will produce a straighter bal flight and even a draw. Don't listen to everything you hear or read. How about y'all?

Foot Spacing and Alignment

Place your feet about shoulder width apart and keep your toes parallel to the target line. Your feet should also be squared up to the target line, meaning your toes are not left open or pointed inwards. Placing your feet in a different postion could throw off your balance or promote unwanted ball movement.
Open Stance
An open stance (front foot back from target line) promotes an out to in swing that can cause a fade or slice.
Right-Handed Golfer Open Stance -->
Closed Stance
A closed stance (rear foot back from target line) promotes an in to out swing that can cause a draw or hook.

[mpare]

I'm no technician, but I'm not surprised that the square stance that you tried caused you to push or block the ball to the right. If I tried to set up square in the manner that you have demonstrated, then I would never be able to execute a proper turn either on the backswing or the downswing. Ben Hogan's solution was to flare out the left foot to the left. Once you do that, the backswing is more freely executed. As well, on the downswing it is much easier to clear the hips (the famous bump forward and quick left rotation). Try it. You'll be amazed at the difference such a little change makes.

[leftylucas]

I agree Mike, I even like to flare out both feet but with a slightly closed stance. One important factor is that if you do not also align the rest of your body, knees, hips, shoulders with your feet then you will cause all kinds of trouble. Perhaps ones shoulders are too open compared to the feet alignment and then the arms cannot come around causing a slice or block. Feet are just a small part of alignment

[BC MIST]

When one opens or closes one's stance the body alignment should also open or close. In the Chief's diagrams above, while a foot has been drawn back, the upper body's alignment would not change.

A pure draw is caused by an inside path of the club head to the ball, with a slightly open club face from a SQUARE alignment. To hit the draw, the arms have to start down BELOW the shoulder plane, assuming this square setup. By "closing" one's stance, that is, aligning to the right, the ball will just go right, UNLESS, the golfer has significantly closed the club face. This will produce a hook, not a draw. (They are not the same)

It is a reality that the arms will start down closet to the where the shoulders are aligned at address. Most golfers align the upper body LEFT of the target line, regardless of where the feet are aligned, and most of these start down OVER or ABOVE their ideal down swing plane.

For consistent ball striking, assuming a proper grip, have everything you own aligned parallel to the target line, and start down with the hands moving toward your back right pocket, NOT BACK TO THE BALL.

Stuff like the chief included in his post should be banned!! Not the chief, just the information.

[Chieflongtee]

Stuff like the chief included in his post should be banned!! Not the chief, just the information

Hilarious commentNow can a tennis player hit a topspin forehand with an open stance

[Crackberry]

Tennis is one handed. For a right handed forehand, the left arm and shoulder do not really come in to play and tennis has a little more hand and wrist action since the racket does not flex and the head is way closer to the hand that swing's it.
Therefore we cannot talk about the same things here.

The golf stance lines have 2 points: one on the left of the body and one on the right, ie. knee line: the line drawn from the right knee through the left knee and this should point just left and parallel of target line for a right handed player.

I like the idea of moving the hands down to the right pocket. If the club hits the ball at 3:00 with the 9:00 point closest to the target and 6:00 closest to the feet, the hands will come down towards 4:30 on the ball. I think point is just an extension past the right pocket.

If an inside club path with an open face gives us our pure draw swing, the open clubface hits the ball somewhere between 3:00 and 4:30. This has Elk written all over it.

[Chieflongtee]

While I agree that tennis is a different game you will see 2 handed topspin backhands hit with various stances.

[BC MIST]

While I agree that tennis is a different game you will see 2 handed topspin backhands hit with various stances.

True and to me, this is why the stance has little to do with hitting a draw or a fade in golf. It is the way the racquet or the golf club comes into the ball. My arms/shoulders/hands determine where the ball starts and which way it curves while the stance, unless extreme, has minimal affect.

Crackberry - ELK, I assume, refers to TGM? It is my understanding that at separation, that if the ratio of the inside path of the club head hitting the ball to the degrees open that the club face is, is approximately 3:2, then a pure draw results. Golfers who hit the back of the ball with a square club face and an inside path, will hook, not draw.

In talking to various golfers about what part of the ball they look at, invariably they look at the BACK of the ball.(3:00) By looking at the back of the ball the hands/arms do NOT move down toward the back right pocket, but directly to the ball, which for most means that they are over the top of the ideal swing plane(not necessarily outside - in) and this results is a wide variety of less than desirable ball flights. The only way for the ball to be contacted at 4:30 is for the arms/hands to move away from the target at the start of the downswing and then down. This can happen without any conscious thought because the focus is hitting the inside quadrant of the ball, instead of the back of the ball.

If there is a "secret" to better ball striking, it is this initial motion, but one has to understand its importance and believe in it, before being able to achieve it. Achieving it is actually quite simple.

[Crackberry]

I am referring to steve and tgm. He addresses the ball with the clubface well open - I heard some 30 degrees. The idea that the hands are moving on a path going towards 430, the club would then hit the ball near 3:00, but you're right... If its at 3 with a square clubface and inside angle of approach, its going to hook. This is also dependant on how much forward lean is on the club. With alot of lean, it will hook more (and go lower), but if we can have very minimal forward lean and help release the clubshaft in a hitters pattern, it will draw less. The ball does compress against the face for some 3/4" (or close to it) and during this time the face will rotate slightly and ideally, the ball will seperate with the clubface square to the target line.


Given this inside path with open face, do we not expect a fade with an outside path with a slightly closed face hitting the outside of the ball? Plummer and Bennett talk about this with the shaft leaning back slightly. Its a different feeling to let the fade go!

[BC MIST]

(1)The idea that the hands are moving on a path going towards 430, the club would then hit the ball near 3:00,
(2)Given this inside path with open face, do we not expect a fade with an outside path with a slightly closed face hitting the outside of the ball? Plummer and Bennett talk about this with the shaft leaning back slightly. Its a different feeling to let the fade go!

(1) While the feeling is that the hands are moving towards the inside quadrant, in reality, it does not nor should it happen. Slow motion from down the line shows that the hands are actually moving left of the target line, significantly BEFORE impact, and they MUST, as this is how the club face gets scared. The hands go left while the club face goes right (to 4:30) seems contradictory, but it's not. A golfer who can actually move the hands towards the ball, will hit it quite crooked, usually right. This is just like "swinging down the line," an instruction that almost guarantees poor shots.

(2) Yes, the ball flight should be a "pure fade," with the path and club face alignment you mentioned. While hitting a pure draw is very simple, hitting a pure fade, I find very difficult because instead of the arms moving back and down, I would have to move them out and over. Instead, I set up open and hit a push fade, as I can do this by continuing to move my arms back and down. Judging by the pictures of Hogan, this appears to be how he hit his fade. A true "cut" shot requires poor swing mechanics that those who want to hit the ball straight ought to stay away from.

[DavidGass]

I think in point 1, you meant "squared" instead of "scared". Although, I would like to scare my clubface into hitting good shots
-Dave

[Crackberry]

A true "cut" shot requires poor swing mechanics that those who want to hit the ball straight ought to stay away from.

That's what I was thinking.

can you elaborate more on the hands going left pre impact? down the line video for swingers (most pga tour players are) show the hands following the ball and you can see the hand movement of the release. Someone else talked about that in another thread and I have been trying to get my head wrapped around that.

at the Northern Trust a few weeks ago, during the 3rd round they had some great slow-mo video of couples and mickelson and it showed their bottom hand come off the club after impact- something typical with a swinger. If the lower hand comes off the club, it sure can't drive the club left after impact.

Maybe its a degree of "left", but most players don't go hard left like hogan, mac o'grady, or sergio.

[TP Tomi]

How about y'all?

LOL Chief .. thanks so much for posting this.
I like to hit a draw, and believe it or not, I have a sliiightly open stance.
I do however, take the club inside-out ..

I lived in Hawaii my whole life, and would attend The Hawaiian Open quite a bit.
Now known as The Sony Open ..
I followed Corey Pavin every single year, every single round.
All of the players (and I paid specific attention to their stances) no matter if they hit a draw
or a fade, were at some point (right handers) always had their left shoe's toes
pointed left sometimes as much as 45*. Most were alot less tho.

I talked with Corey (walking down the fairway) once about this.
He said it hepled him "clear his right side".

It's really funny though .. some days I stand closed and hit great draws,
other days I stand open and still hit draws .. I despise the fade ...

Corey and I are of the very same stature, and hit it about the same distance.
He's the one golfer (not too long ago) who's game I could watch and try to replicate.

I've studied his swing extensively on video as well .. he's played Sawgrass and Riviera
very well .. I had some amazing video *loops* on the mechanics of his swing.

[Crackberry]

Corey has been working with a S&T guy lately. He's hitting it much better. Great guy to model yourself off of

[TP Tomi]

Corey has been working with a S&T guy lately. He's hitting it much better. Great guy to model yourself off of

LOL yes .. I figured I could *see* Corey's swing .. I can't see Tiger's ..
Besides, if I tried to swing like Tiger, I'd be in traction after about 3 swings ..

I've even had people say (not too long ago) that my swing reminded them of Corey's ..
Wish I could play as good as him though lol ..