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Thread: Venturi vs Palmer
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04-09-2004 08:36 PM #1
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Venturi vs Palmer
Does anyone have an opinion on the claim by Ken Venturi that Arnold Palmer "did wrong" in the 1958 Masters. The issue resurfaced recently with Venturi's book on his life in golf. Apparently Palmer, who was leading the tournament overshot a par three and plugged his ball. He asked for a ruling and the official did not give him a drop. After scoring a five on the hole, Palmer stated he was going to play a provisional, and he went back to replay the hole. Second time around he scored a par three and the committee ruled that he should have been allowed a drop and let this score to stand.
Venturi contends for a provisional to be played it had to be declared before the second shot on the original ball. And since when can you replay a hole under protest.
Things may have been different back then, but golf changes slowly and things could not have been that different.
Any thoughts?
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04-09-2004 11:42 PM #2
Here are the applicable Rules from the 1956-1960 Rule book.
RULE 29 BALL LOST, OUT OF BOUNDS , OR UNPLAYABLE
Rule 29-3. Provisional Ball
A provisional ball for a ball lost, out of bounds or unplayable may be played as provided for in Rule 30.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.
Note 1: A serious breach of this Rule should be dealt with by the Committee under Rule 1.
Note 2:The penalty stroke provided for in Rule 29-1 may not be remitted by Local Rule.
RULE 30 PROVISIONAL BALL
1. Procedure
If a ball may be lost, out of bounds, unplayable, or in a water hazard or lateral water hazard, to save time the player may at once play another ball provisionally as nearly as possible from the spot at which the original ball was played. If the original ball was played from the teeing ground, a ball may be teed anywhere within the teeing ground; if from through the green or a hazard, it shall be dropped; if on the putting green, it shall be placed.
a. Before playing a provisional ball, the player must announce his intention to his opponent or his marker. The player is not obliged to state the reason for which he plays a provisional ball. He may not restrict the purpose for which it is played except to state that it does not apply to a ball in a water hazard (Rules 33-2 and 33-3).
b. A provisional ball may be played only before the player or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
c. Play of a provisional ball from the teeing ground does not affect the order in which the sides play (Rule 12-2).
d. A provisional ball is never an outside agency.
2. Election of Ball to be Played
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. He shall then elect to play either:-
a. The original ball, in which case there shall be no penalty,
or
b. The provisional ball, under penalty provided for in the Rule governing the particular case.
When the player makes his choice, the other ball shall then be retired from play.
If the Rules permit the original ball to be dropped without penalty, the player may do so before electing which ball to play.
RULE 11 DISPUTES AND DOUBT AS TO RIGHTS
5. Stroke Play: Doubt as to Procedure
In stroke play only, when a competitor is doubtful of his rights or procedure, he may play out the hole with the ball in play and, at the same time, complete the play of the hole with a second ball. Before playing a stroke with either ball, the competitor must announce to his marker his intention to proceed under this Rule and must announce which ball he wants to score with if the Rules permit.
On completing the round the competitor must report the facts immediately to the Committee. If it be found that the Rules allow the procedure selected in advance, the score with the ball so selected shall be his score for the hole. Should the competitor fail to announce in advance his procedure or selection, the score with the second ball shall be his score for the hole if played in accordance with the Rules.
Note 1: The sole purpose of this Rule is to enable a competitor to avoid disqualification when doubtful of his rights or procedure; a competitor is not permitted to play in two ways and then choose his score.
Note 2: The privilege of playing a second ball does not exist in match play. A second ball played under Rule 11-5 is not a provisional ball under Rule 30.
These Rules are effectively the same today.
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04-10-2004 01:35 PM #3
Even after reading that lengthy set of rules, I still can't figure out if what Arnie did was okay....
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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04-10-2004 02:03 PM #4
It depends on what you mean by: "what Arnie did was okay".
From the description, it is clear (to me) that Arnie did not follow the Rules.
However, the matter was brought to the attention of the Committeee.
The Committee seems to have ruled incorrectly on the matter and allowed Arnie's action.
The Committee's ruling is FINAL and so the score (3) stands.
Therefore, "okay" or "not okay" depends on your point of view.
Also, this is only Venturi's side of the story.
Is this truly the sequence of actions that took place in 1958?
Without more information, I make no personal judgement on the matter.
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04-10-2004 02:10 PM #5Originally Posted by Gary Hill
Agreed that he seems to have broken a rule, but in the end, like you said Gary, if the committee says 3 is the score, then so be it.
Thanks
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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04-10-2004 03:30 PM #6
If he was questioning the plugged ball ruling sould he not have played the second ball dropped right there then complete the hole with both balls?
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04-10-2004 04:43 PM #7
Dan Kilbank - No. That is also a penalty.
If you are playing without a referee nearby, you may declare that you are going to play a second ball according to Rule 3-3. The declaration MUST be made before you make a stroke at the original ball.
Once Arnie got the ruling, its FINAL. You cannot disregard the ruling and play two balls or go back and play the hole over again.Last edited by Gary Hill; 04-10-2004 at 05:10 PM.
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04-10-2004 05:04 PM #8Originally Posted by Gary Hill
Damn, had to happen sooner or later.
Dan[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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04-10-2004 05:09 PM #9
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04-10-2004 05:20 PM #10Originally Posted by Gary Hill[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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