Is the original bal abandoned??

[LobWedge]

I'm not sure of this one.

A player hits his tee shot and it becomes lodged in the branches of a tree. He walks to the tree and is able to identify that it is his ball, but he can't reach it. He decides to invoke Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable) and turns to walk back to the tee. After a few steps, a gust of wind dislodges the ball from the tree and it lands in a playable lie.

Is the original ball abandoned as soon as he invokes 28 and turns to walk back to the tee, regardless of what happens to the original ball after his declaration, or is the original ball still in play because he hasn't yet substituted another ball back at the place from where he played his previous stroke, and he can now change his mind and choose to play the original ball from its new position?

[jvincent]

My quick read on the definitions/rule is that since you have not yet put a substituted ball into play then you can play the original.

[LobWedge]

My quick read on the definitions/rule is that since you have not yet put a substituted ball into play then you can play the original.

Thanks John. I went back and re-read the definition of Ball in Play.

[Kiwi battler]

I think you are screwed once youve declared the ball unplayable ....but the good news , is you dont have to return to the tee , you can drop the ball withen 2 clublengths of the spot on the ground directly under where the ball was up in the tree

[AAA]

I think you are screwed once youve declared the ball unplayable ....

See Dec 28/13

[Kiwi battler]

But IMO bears little or no relevance to this senerio

It is a great question tho ....and certainly warrants a decision giving an answer

Im suprised nobody pointed out the fact he could have proceeded under 28-c playing from under the tree , or 2 c/l's from


A more in depth question would be , could he use either ball under 28-c if the original fell before dropping a substitute

[gbower]

The decision that AAA quoted is totally relevant to the situation. How do you figure it isn't. He hadn't put another ball in play yet.

[AAA]

But IMO bears little or no relevance to this senerio

In what way does it not fit?

[Hacker]

Can you actually declare a ball that you have NOT identified as yours as unplayable??

[gbower]

Under option (a) of rule 28 you can declare a ball not identified as unplayable and that means a penalty of stroke and distance. Under options (b) and (c) the ball must be identified to proceed using these options.

[BC MIST]

Can you actually declare a ball that you have NOT identified as yours as unplayable??

Rule 28 says that "The player may declare HIS ball unplayable at any place on the course, except..." Obviously then, he does not know if the ball in the tree is his.

If a player hits his ball into the jungle and knows that he is not going to be able to play it, he can say that it is unplayable and invoke the stroke and distance option. In this case he does not have to identify the ball in order to use S&D. Of course, he could just say nothing and hit another.

Question: If the jungle I referred to above is a lateral water hazard and the player says that his ball is unplayable and plays his next stroke under stroke and distance, is he in trouble?

[Kiwi battler]

In 28/13 ....the player lifted his ball from GUR ....not realising it at the time
IMO its an equity type ruling that allows him to proceed under rule 25 even tho he lifted initially under rule 28 ......now if he dropped under 28 before realising it was possible to use rule 25 Im picking it would be too late

Once the ball is declared unplayable , the player has 3 options ...the only out he has is if he could have lifted the ball without penalty under a different rule

You cant declare a ball unplayable , lift it , then change your mind ...... the difference with this ball in tree senerio is that the ball wasnt lifted ....but IMO it doesnt matter ..... rule 28 doesnt say declare the ball unplayable with 3 options UNLESS you change your mind before lifting ....

Tho it appears many , actually all of our friends at the Leith Society disagree with the above statement , so Id like to nominate rule 28 for the award of stupidestly written rule in the book lol



As for Hackers question .....yes you can use rule 28 without identifing the ball ...........if you can knock or shake the ball down after declaring it unplayable you avoid a breach of rule 18 ....and can proceed under ANY of the 3 options.....if not , then its option A ....stroke and distance
There is no penalty for declaring a wrong ball unplayable

[justsomeguy]

My quick read on the definitions/rule is that since you have not yet put a substituted ball into play then you can play the original.

I think he would be allowed to change which option he could use because he hasn't put another ball in play, but the wording of Rule 28 seems to preclude playing the original ball:

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he MUST, under penalty of one stroke...

To me, the use of the word "must" in this sentence means that he can't change his mind about the declaration - he can only change his mind about which option to choose (which are spelled out after this line).

I think Decision 28/13 is a bad ruling. Since relief from GUR is optional (unless there is a local rule in place) and Rule 28 does not preclude a player from declaring a ball unplayable in GUR, then why should the presence of GUR allow him to change his mind? Why does interference by GUR get special treatment, but interference from an obstruction does not? To me, the only way Decision 28/13 can be justified is if relief from GUR is mandatory under a local rule.

[Kiwi battler]

I agree with your interpretation of rule 28 Justsome ....well parts of it
I do disagree with your view on 28/13 tho .....its a fair decision , the player wasnt aware it was GUR

2 other decisions knocked about on another forum are 18-2a/27.5 ....which a new decision and IMO only safeguards the field from players using rule 28 to avoid a possible penalty .... it doesnt IMO show that a player can change his mind after deeming a ball unplayable......
A simple sentence added to rule 28 would remove any confusion or doubt , and make this decision worthless

and , 20-6/5 which seems to have little relevance

I still see a loophole in rule 28 , assuming you can change your mind ...
Im still not convinced the ruling bodies would allow you to change your mind tho
Which is why I nominate it for stupidiest written rule lol

[BC MIST]

Id like to nominate rule 28 for the award of stupidestly written rule in the book

It appears that you feel that Rule 28 allows a player to get away with something or gives him choices to get around having to apply another rule. I don't see this.There are rules where I could have several choices, later water hazard, for example, and I don't have to declare which option I am going to use, but even if I do declare which one, I can change my mind if I have not put a ball into play. Would you provide a concrete example of where a golfer can use Rule 28 to circumvent a rule?

I assume that you are being facetious in the last statement I quoted. Rule 28 is essential and one of the most important rules of the game and without it, the game of golf as we know it, would end. The reason should be obvious.

[Kiwi battler]

No facetiousness at all .....how simple and clearcut would it be to have a simple sentence added to avoid any confusion ? its a very short rule afterall
"once deemed unplayable the player must proceed under this rule unless it is discovered he could have lifted the ball under another rule"

The way its written , if the player deems his ball unplayable , he must , "under penalty of 1 stroke" A,B/C
Other than a few obscure exceptions , it logically appears he is bound to proceed , with a 1 shot penalty....But nope , seems thats not so ......


You want an example ... I half shank my 2nd shot on a par 4 .....into a nasty patch of deep rough / scrub
The chance of finding it , without actually moving the ball are slim ....I declare it unplayable before entering the rough ...
If the ball moves as I find it , I go back and hit my 4th
If in finding it it doesnt move , but is unplayable I do as above ...if it is playable I "change my mind" and hit my 3rd onto the green
So im quite likely 1 shot better off ...possibly 2 and some distance
Is this how the ruling bodies envisaged the rule to be used ?

Another , I hit my tee shot into a tree ...we can see the ball , sitting nicely on op of a branch
Hmmmmm , yeah rule 28 , I declare it unplayble
I climb into the , with total immunity against rule 18 ...
I get to a point where it becomes apparent I can now play the ball , if I had a club in my hand of course
Throw me a club , Ive changed my mind , gunna play it

Yes Decision 18-2a/27.5 goes a little way to close a loophole ....IMO it would be way way simpler to rule the way rule 28 reads

[jvincent]

I think you are missing the point Kiwi.

Even though you have deemed the ball unplayable the way the rules are written you can still play the original until you have placed another ball in play.

It's the same as the lost ball rule. You cannot declare your ball lost. It is lost after 5 minutes or if you have put another ball in play.

[Kiwi battler]

Yes you can play the original ball , a subtitute ball is only an option

The point I was making was , BEFORE you lift the original ball under rule 28 , you CAN apparently change your mind , and play the original ball as it lies WITHOUT the penalty under rule 28

Hence using rule 28 as a possible safegaurd or backup at least against rule 18

[justsomeguy]

I think you are missing the point Kiwi.

Even though you have deemed the ball unplayable the way the rules are written you can still play the original until you have placed another ball in play.

It's the same as the lost ball rule. You cannot declare your ball lost. It is lost after 5 minutes or if you have put another ball in play.

I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of Rule 28 - it is certainly NOT the same as the lost ball rule. While you can never "deem" your ball lost, you can certainly "deem" your ball unplayable - at any time anywhere on the course except in a water hazard.

So far nobody has pointed out where the Rules state that after you deem your ball unplayable, you can suddenly change your mind and deem it playable again. The Rules do not use the words "must" and "may" interchangeably, so it would seem to me that after a player has deemed his ball unplayable then choosing 1 of the 3 choices outlined in Rule 28 is mandatory.

[jvincent]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The similarity is that the original determination of the ball being lost or unplayable is NOT because a player deems/declares it to be so. Something else has to happen.

In the case of the unplayable, if the original ball suddenly becomes playable before a new ball is put in play, all is good.

In the case of a lost ball, if the original ball is not found in 5 min or a new ball is put into play, then the original is lost. The simple act of declaring it lost is not good enough because if somebody finds it before the 5 minutes is up or another ball has been put into play then it is not lost.

[jvincent]

So far nobody has pointed out where the Rules state that after you deem your ball unplayable, you can suddenly change your mind and deem it playable again. The Rules do not use the words "must" and "may" interchangeably, so it would seem to me that after a player has deemed his ball unplayable then choosing 1 of the 3 choices outlined in Rule 28 is mandatory.

Nowhere in Rule 28 does it say that once you deem your ball unplayable that you cannot subsequently change your mind.

Until you take the action of lifting or substituting a ball, your original ball is still in play and you can proceed under the rules. This includes playing is as it lies if it happens to fall out of the tree.

[AAA]

Nowhere in Rule 28 does it say that once you deem your ball unplayable that you cannot subsequently change your mind.

Another of these 'If it doesn't say you can't then you can'.

[Kiwi battler]

Poorly written indeed huh .....MUST do A,B or C ....... Id have thought that was pretty clear but alas

[BC MIST]

"Once a player has put a ball into play under an applicable rule, he must continue to proceed under that rule..." 20-6/5

Therefore, if a player has NOT put a ball into play under an applicable rule, he does NOT have to proceed under the rule.

(1) I find my ball lying on some nasty rough/scrub. "I don't think I can play this so my ball is unplayable." On second thought, I am going to give it a try."

(2) "My ball is in the lateral water hazard so I'm going to drop it two club lengths from the point of entry. Hey, I'm going to play it so I won't have to take a penalty stroke."

And some of you see something wrong with this?

[AAA]

"Once a player has put a ball into play under an applicable rule, he must continue to proceed under that rule..." 20-6/5

Therefore, if a player has NOT put a ball into play under an applicable rule, he does NOT have to proceed under the rule.

Exactly

[mpare]

The Rules regulate a golfer's actions, not his intentions. A good example, from a few years back, was Craig Stadler being assessed a penalty for kneeling on a towel. It mattered not that he had no intention of building a stance.

Nowhere in Rule 28 does it say that once you deem your ball unplayable that you cannot subsequently change your mind.

Until you take the action of lifting or substituting a ball, your original ball is still in play and you can proceed under the rules. This includes playing is as it lies if it happens to fall out of the tree.

[Kiwi battler]

Originally Posted by BC MIST
"Once a player has put a ball into play under an applicable rule, he must continue to proceed under that rule..." 20-6/5

Therefore, if a player has NOT put a ball into play under an applicable rule, he does NOT have to proceed under the rule.


This doesnt mean he avoids a penalty in some cases tho ....

[AAA]

Such as ?

[BC MIST]

Even though there is obvious disagreement with what Kiwi Battler feels should be done with this rule, there is a message for those of us who play in tournaments.

If your ball ends up in what could be a horrendous lie, declare the ball unplayable before looking and if you accidentally move the ball while searching, and it does end up in a lie you later deem to be unplayable, you can avoid the moved ball penalty. Correct?

[justsomeguy]

Nowhere in Rule 28 does it say that once you deem your ball unplayable that you cannot subsequently change your mind.

My interpretation is based on the fact that Rule 28 uses the word "must" after the player has deemed his ball unplayable, whereas most other Rules with relief options use the word "may" instead. Using the word "must" rather than "may" indicates to me that after the player has chosen his course of action, then using one of the three options outlined in Rule 28 is mandatory.

If the player could change his mind and play the ball as it lies after deeming his ball unplayable, then why not use the word "may" instead?