What's more important in a driver?

[quinner]

I have a question or two: I currently have the Proto By U shaft in my SQ Driver. I have a driver swing speed around 100-104 mph. I am going to go and get fitted for a new driver shaft (possibly, if another shaft is better for me than this one). I am curious what would be the better upgrade. Is a $200+ shaft that much better than lower priced ones? Would upgrading the shaft be better than upgrading the head technology? I understand that the shaft is engine of the driver itself, so it would make sense that that is where you would want to spend your money. Just looking for some insight as I don't know much about club building or the technical details....I just swing'em.

As always...thanks, I find the knowledge of the people on this forum priceless.

[jvincent]

The best shaft is the one that fits you best. Sometimes that is a $500 shaft, sometimes it's a $25 one. Seriously.

Things that matter in terms of fit are:

- total weight
- flex profile, i.e. how the relative stiffness of the shaft changes as a function of length
- absolute stiffness, i.e. if you compared two shafts with the same profile but one is stiffer than that other.

[quinner]

Pardon my ignorance on this, but what affect does total weight have on a driver other than the golfers preference of the weight of the club? Does it have any affect?

[jvincent]

Total weight is part of the overall "feel" effect.

Take me as an example, no matter how much I spend on a shaft, I simply cannot hit any of the ultra-light (<60g) shafts. It's just too light for me and it throws off my swing mechanics.

For most golfers there is likely an optimum shaft weight which will generate the maximum clubhead speed. For some this is lighter, for others it is heavier.

[quinner]

Thank you for all the information.

[leftylucas]

I can tell you after many drivers (most of which are sitting in my garage or in Ebay land) that a fitting should answer most of your questions. I went to the Callaway Performance Centre and the fitter there was able to determine whether or not your swing was at fault for the performance of the driver. I was told to stick with my $100 Fusion FT-3. My friend on the other hand had some good results but was told he could gain another 20-25 yards if he was able to stop swinging down on the ball. He was causing too much spin and letting the ball balloon. There is a big difference between 230 and 255 off the tee.

All of this to say you may have the best combo right now or have a different characteristic shaft to help out but your swing has a lot to do with your results.

[SMT]

1. Would upgrading the shaft be better than upgrading the head technology?



2. I understand that the shaft is engine of the driver itself, so it would make sense that that is where you would want to spend your money.

As this is my business and my profession, and as I have been designing both heads and shafts for many years, I would like to reply.


1. Absolutely not. I guarantee you that I can do more with a clubhead or clubhead design to impact a change in your game than I ever could with any shaft on the market today or in the history of this great game. The metaphor that I can use to descrobe it is this... clubheads weigh about 200 grams across the board with an almost infinite number of things that can be done to influence ball spin and flight characteristics. Center of gravity can be located almost anywhere. Golf shafts, to pick a random number, weigh on average only 65 grams. It would be like saying "the tail wags the dog" - and thir playing properies can only lie within the confines of their space.

2. The most overused and ridiciculous analogy in golf next to "keep your head down".... Using the automobile metaphor.... the shaft , unlike the car engine does not and simply cannot PRODUCE power. At best it is the transmission of the power that the golfer has generated. Again... I absolutely can influence players games more, far more, with clubhead design than I ever, ever could through golf shaft design. It is simple physics.


Mike

[Kona Golf]

As this is my business and my profession, and as I have been designing both heads and shafts for many years, I would like to reply.


1. Absolutely not. I guarantee you that I can do more with a clubhead or clubhead design to impact a change in your game than I ever could with any shaft on the market today or in the history of this great game. The metaphor that I can use to descrobe it is this... clubheads weigh about 200 grams across the board with an almost infinite number of things that can be done to influence ball spin and flight characteristics. Center of gravity can be located almost anywhere. Golf shafts, to pick a random number, weigh on average only 65 grams. It would be like saying "the tail wags the dog" - and thir playing properies can only lie within the confines of their space.

2. The most overused and ridiciculous analogy in golf next to "keep your head down".... Using the automobile metaphor.... the shaft , unlike the car engine does not and simply cannot PRODUCE power. At best it is the transmission of the power that the golfer has generated. Again... I absolutely can influence players games more, far more, with clubhead design than I ever, ever could through golf shaft design. It is simple physics.


Mike

Great Reply Mike

[Chieflongtee]

Great Reply Mike

Hi Jim. Someone I know is dying to debate the theory. If for example a golf shaft not well fitted for a particular golfer causes you to hit it 2 fairways to the right on a consistant basis don't you think he could easily gain 30 yards by being better fitted? have you ever tried using your wife's driver??

[BC MIST]

Hi Jim. Someone I know is dying to debate the theory. If for example a golf shaft not well fitted for a particular golfer causes you to hit it 2 fairways to the right on a consistant basis don't you think he could easily gain 30 yards by being better fitted? have you ever tried using your wife's driver??

If I may butt in? There is no shaft that will cause anyone to hit the ball "2 fairways over," not even 1 fairway, for that matter. Some know and others don't believe, that shaft type has little or no affect on club head speed. However, various shaft parameters have an affect on how the shaft feels and a little on golf ball trajectory.

To repeat from another thread - from my own experiments with shafts from LL to XX, there was 0 difference on CHS, 0 difference in accuracy, softer shafts yielded slightly higher shots and there was a definite difference in how the club felt as I swung through. Having said that, years ago there was one shaft I came across in a club of a golfing friend who normally faded, that caused the ball to hook. My normally straight ball flight did hook about half a fairway with this same club. Never figured out why.

[Chieflongtee]

If I may butt in? .

Sure you can butt in Lyle.
Give me a very low torque shaft and a very high torque one with the same clubhead. I can assure you that the results will be quite different. If you're a swinger possibly no effect. If you are a hitter then it's a different story.

[SMT]

If I may butt in? There is no shaft that will cause anyone to hit the ball "2 fairways over," not even 1 fairway, for that matter. Some know and others don't believe, that shaft type has little or no affect on club head speed. However, various shaft parameters have an affect on how the shaft feels and a little on golf ball trajectory.

To repeat from another thread - from my own experiments with shafts from LL to XX, there was 0 difference on CHS, 0 difference in accuracy, softer shafts yielded slightly higher shots and there was a definite difference in how the club felt as I swung through. Having said that, years ago there was one shaft I came across in a club of a golfing friend who normally faded, that caused the ball to hook. My normally straight ball flight did hook about half a fairway with this same club. Never figured out why.

APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE

Well written. I have been using Ladies Flex shafts for the past 20 years with a 105 mph driver swingspeed

[Chieflongtee]

APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE

Well written. I have been using Ladies Flex shafts for the past 20 years with a 105 mph driver swingspeed

Where is the ladies flex located in the shaft itself i.e profile,torque etc? And how do you explain the following:

Fibre speed shafts were the flexiest shafts ever made and they made a shaft that had 25* degrees of torque to prove a point of how fast a shaft recovers...but would not allow anyone to hit it for obvious reasons.....

[SMT]

Where is the ladies flex located in the shaft itself i.e profile,torque etc? And how do you explain the following:

Fibre speed shafts were the flexiest shafts ever made and they made a shaft that had 25* degrees of torque to prove a point of how fast a shaft recovers...but would not allow anyone to hit it for obvious reasons.....

Well... as I am a more hands type player, I personally found ladies flex shafts with a lighter or softer tip more to my liking.... as for "explaining the following".........

I didn't make that comment and therefor have no comment nor feel the need to explain someone elses theory.

[Chieflongtee]

Well... as I am a more hands type player, I personally found ladies flex shafts with a lighter or softer tip more to my liking.... as for "explaining the following".........

I didn't make that comment and therefor have no comment nor feel the need to explain someone elses theory.

You must be a politician. I know you are an excellent marketing guy. All right then. Ever tried swinging the following. You can only swing that thing if you fall asleep on the shot or let gravity take over. Take a full swing with it and tell me what the outcome will be. My next take will be on your clubhead designs.

[Kona Golf]

Hi Jim. Someone I know is dying to debate the theory. If for example a golf shaft not well fitted for a particular golfer causes you to hit it 2 fairways to the right on a consistant basis don't you think he could easily gain 30 yards by being better fitted? have you ever tried using your wife's driver??

Hi Andre

Hit my wife's 455 quite often 5.5 Excelsior pearl from Raven. Also hit 220cpm SMT mirido as well as 245 Mercury Savage and never hit one of them too far off line. Softer the better in my opinion.

I think marketing plays to big a role in shafts today. Think back to Mercury Performance shafts. Simple inexpensive and never had to replace them.

If you can get a head that you can hit on a consistent basis, I believe that you will get good performance with just about any shaft within a reasonable flex range. toooo stiff being the exception.: stirthepo

I also believe that you will be more accurate with a 75 gram shaft than a 55 gram shaft, but that's only my experience.

Assembly as always,is most important, IMHO. The rest is sizzle!

Again, this is only an opinion.

Regards

[Kona Golf]

You must be a politician. I know you are an excellent marketing guy. All right then. Ever tried swinging the following. You can only swing that thing if you fall asleep on the shot or let gravity take over. Take a full swing with it and tell me what the outcome will be. My next take will be on your clubhead designs.

Have you ever seen the trick shot fellow on the golf channel doing his thing with the head on a rope.

[Chieflongtee]

Hi Jim. I have had more success with a steel shaft in my driver than with any other shaft.Part of the reason is shorter length,low torque and shaft weight. I can't let gravity do it for my swing
5.5 is not exactly a ladies flex in my book unless Raven has come up with a new flex designation.
Of course I always respect your opinion and agree that marketing plays a big part. However I would hate to see Jason Zuback swing a Mercury A flex.
While I admit that the head plays a big role in ball flight imho the shaft does too. Would you couple a LADA transmission with a Ferrari engine?

[Kona Golf]

Hi Jim. I have had more success with a steel shaft in my driver than with any other shaft.Part of the reason is shorter length,low torque and shaft weight. I can't let gravity do it for my swing
5.5 is not exactly a ladies flex in my book unless Raven has come up with a new flex designation.
Of course I always respect your opinion and agree that marketing plays a big part. However I would hate to see Jason Zuback swing a Mercury A flex.
While I admit that the head plays a big role in ball flight imho the shaft does too. Would you couple a LADA transmission with a Ferrari engine?

5.5 torque Andre / 2.5 on the chart

when you or I swing like Jason, we should revisit this discussion.

buy the way, the Lada Drive Train was the best part of the Lada. Sold them a lot of stuff in my early years!

[kilmidyke]

I always thought a shaft had to be matched to a swing speed no? A soft shaft at high speed would put the club head to far in front at the bottom of the arc would it not, and therefore lag behind if the shaft doesn't flex enough at lower speed?

truly I have no idea really and this is just based on personal experience. if i hit my wifes driver I get huge draw bordeline hook and I also have an old Ping Tisi WRX with a steel rifle 6.0 that fades like a demon! My own current driver, a 905R with NV65 regular flex is straight down the pipe and if it's not then that is down to a crap swing made by me!

Good thread by the way!

Liam.

[Chambokl]

I will try to use other sport and you guys could tell me what you think.

Slo-Picth: 15 years ago most players would use bats that were 35 to 38 ounces. Now, if would watch or play "A" or "B" ball most if not all the players use bats that are 26 to 28 ounces. Bat swing is the most important thing.

Hockey: The use of the lighter stick has help shots to be a lot harder. The biggest problem for week-end players is that they use sticks that are way too stiff. Most palyers (including kids) should use a stick with a 50 to 70 flex. All players playing in a league with no slapshot should use a stick that is also 50 to 70 flex. If you play with slapshot and are short you should also use less flex in your stick. If I remember right, Brett Hull use stick with a 65 to 70 flex.

[sharon.gmc]

All of this information suddenly makes me realize how uninformed I am with drivers. Now I need to think about the weight when I buy a driver.

[SMT]

You must be a politician. I know you are an excellent marketing guy. All right then. Ever tried swinging the following. You can only swing that thing if you fall asleep on the shot or let gravity take over. Take a full swing with it and tell me what the outcome will be. My next take will be on your clubhead designs.

The Whippy Tempo Master... great product.. yes I have used it, quite a bit and oddly, there are many long drive professionals that use it for practice and even the longest hitters in the world take full swings quite nicely with the product.

Again... I am not a fan of the intricate BS that many clubmakers place on shaft flex. I think there is far more overkill in this area than in any other area of clubmaking or custom fitting.

Agai, just my opinion

[Chieflongtee]

The Whippy Tempo Master... great product.. yes I have used it, quite a bit and oddly, there are many long drive professionals that use it for practice and even the longest hitters in the world take full swings quite nicely with the product.

Again... I am not a fan of the intricate BS that many clubmakers place on shaft flex. I think there is far more overkill in this area than in any other area of clubmaking or custom fitting.

Agan, just my opinion

IMHO head design comes 1st but shaft flex ,torque, flex,profile etc.. should not be discarded. If so why would you promote a product such as Faz-Fit??

[Chieflongtee]

How would you expalin the following results?? Marketing?

http://www.golfdigest.com/equipment/2008/08/latestgear

Finding what works
We sent a single-digit handicapper to Stony Hill Custom Golf in Connecticut to test 17 steel shafts with the same 6-iron head. The circles here represent how far, straight and tightly grouped the shots were for five of the shafts. Although all were labeled stiff flex, each shaft had a different flex profile, says Jeff Sheets, vice president of research and development for Golfsmith. Using a clamp and a frequency analyzer, Sheets measured the flex of each shaft in four sections: the butt (under the grip), upper (just below the grip), middle and tip to show why each performed differently. He assigned a number to the relative flex of each section (3=stiff, 2=mid, 1=soft). Our golfer found his ideal flex profile. A local fitter can run the same test for you.

__________________

[Kona Golf]

IMHO head design comes 1st but shaft flex ,torque, flex,profile etc.. should not be discarded. If so why would you promote a product such as Faz-Fit??

Andre,

I don't think anyone is saying Shaft Fitting should be discarded, just that there is more marketing hype and toooo much emphasis is being placed on the Shaft.

I've been working with Dan's new "True Frequency Technology" and with out going into detail, you can make a great set of match clubs, using shafts that you may normally discard for being "Off Spec".

Again just saying that the assembly process of quality components is More important than having that shaft that gives you the very best performance with your very best swing.

I think shaft fitting has become toooo ANAL for the AVERAGE Golfer!

Consistency is far more valuable to most of us, than that extra five yards on our best day!

Again Andre, only an opinion.

[Chieflongtee]

Off topic Jim. How do you go about measuring club length? And have you ever used wood dowels for shock absorption instead of prosoft inserts?

[Kona Golf]

Off topic Jim. How do you go about measuring club length? And have you ever used wood dowels for shock absorption instead of prosoft inserts?

I use a standard GS club gauge (folding with lie angle panel) I attach a tape measure that I found in 10ths that gets me very close for TLT purposes.

Since I tend to use softer rather than stiffer shafts, I have not had the need for inserts of any kind. Have not had any complaints.

You mentioned Fazfit earlier. I use them on all my demo Drivers and shafts. Absolutely awesome for fitting. And you can play with them with out fear of them coming loose during a round. NOT USGA Approved for Tournament play. Which I don't quite understand since you can't change them with out the use of the wrench. Politics was a factor in this decision I think! How do you think Cally got Phil's driver on the approved list within 7 days of submission? influence dollars???? Just Speculating here, nothing more.

Off Track Sorry all.

[SMT]

IMHO head design comes 1st but shaft flex ,torque, flex,profile etc.. should not be discarded. If so why would you promote a product such as Faz-Fit??

Well, you are certainly welcome to your opinion... and I respect that. I believe in the value of shaft weights and their influence on ball spin trajectory and distance.

I promote and believe in bothe the FAZ-FIT as wellas the new 4-Play because it simply makes sense... if you come into a situation that needs a different club, these products facilitate that, and they are the only connector system on the planet that allows you to interchange .335 heads and shafts with .350 heads and shafts which is something that nobody else can do.

Again... I can do far more to help or hurt a players game with a 200 gram head than I can ever do with a 65 gram shaft... no place on earth does the tail wag the dog, and this is no different... regardless of all the hype and talk that we hear on shaft specs and manufacturing techniques

[SMT]

All of this information suddenly makes me realize how uninformed I am with drivers. Now I need to think about the weight when I buy a driver.

It is like having a ball throwing contest... you walk up to the teebox and there is a rack of different balls there. Of course you came to that tee with a swingspeed, and I do not care if it is a fast or slow swing ... in other words, I do not care if you are strong or weak, young or old....

You walk up to the rack of balls and have to literally throw two of them down the fairway.... the first one you pick is a bowling ball and have a go at it.

The next one you choose happens to be a baseball.

I can only assume that you didn'y wear yourself out after the first throw and have the simple ability to generate your same clubhead or swingspeed for the second throw....

which will you throw further?

which will you throw straighter?

which can you throw higher?

which will you throw lower?




heavier vs. lighter.... really quite simple.