Passive hands

[leftylucas]

I have struggled with pulls all season last year. I always thought I was coming over the top somewhat as the cause. I recently saw a video of my swing and in slow motion I saw that my path was fine from the inside. I also remember that on the swing (pull) that I checked my hands and noticed my lower hand had taken over my top hand.

Does anyone have an easy type drill to have the hands remain more constant during the swing or at least somewhat more passive?

The only thing I have tried is to use a weighted club and to practice my downswing slowly and concentrating on my hand position and pressure.

[ironmaster15213]

I have struggled with pulls all season last year. I always thought I was coming over the top somewhat as the cause. I recently saw a video of my swing and in slow motion I saw that my path was fine from the inside. I also remember that on the swing (pull) that I checked my hands and noticed my lower hand had taken over my top hand.

Does anyone have an easy type drill to have the hands remain more constant during the swing or at least somewhat more passive?

The only thing I have tried is to use a weighted club and to practice my downswing slowly and concentrating on my hand position and pressure.

.......Think about keeping your left wrist in a bent position (I am assuming your left handed) thru impact with your right wrist straight and the top of the grip and hands leading the club head well through impact. If this impact position doesn't cure those pulls I'm willing to bet your stopping your lower body turning and pulling on the upper body before impact and thus the hands and arms catch up to the lower body and pull the club around early thus giving you a pull. All this is predicated on your hands,forearms,shoulders,hips etc.... coming from the inside on plane during the downswing.

[BC MIST]

I have struggled with pulls all season last year. I always thought I was coming over the top somewhat as the cause. I recently saw a video of my swing and in slow motion I saw that my path was fine from the inside. I also remember that on the swing (pull) that I checked my hands and noticed my lower hand had taken over my top hand.

Does anyone have an easy type drill to have the hands remain more constant during the swing or at least somewhat more passive?

The only thing I have tried is to use a weighted club and to practice my downswing slowly and concentrating on my hand position and pressure.

I assume that you are left handed, so:
(1) A PULL is a ball flight that starts RIGHT of your target line and does NOT curve. It cannot happen from an inside club head path. My guess is that what you saw was a club head that was inside the target line BEFORE impact, but at and through impact, it was a bit outside.

(2) What wrecks most golf swings is the casting of the trail(bottom) wrist, the thrust of the trail forearm and the roll of the trail shoulder outward. While there are no secrets to good ball striking, it IS essential to come into the ball on the ideal plane, AND, to delay the extension of the trail arm leverage angles, until the very last second.(passive hands) You want an "easy" drill to accomplish something that is very difficult to do, but if you really want to develop a better golf swing, you must be willing to work. Good golf is never easy.

I have 3 or 4 ideas that I know will help you solve your problem, but it will take time and effort on your part to get better. It will take too long to elaborate on them here, but if you send me a PM with an email address, I will send you a brief outline of what can be done, along with a picture that demonstrates one of the programmes, which is to be done with the weighted club that you have. It is not traditional, which is probably why it works.

[leftylucas]

You could be right Lyle, my ball does start right but does curve furhter right. Today I tried following through toward the target and concentrated on the inside near quadrant of the ball for impact and the result was much better but still erring right.

I will PM shortly BC Mist. Thanks again for your help. Luc

[dbleber]

[QUOTE=BC MIST;286668]I assume that you are left handed, so:
(1) A PULL is a ball flight that starts RIGHT of your target line and does NOT curve. It cannot happen from an inside club head path.QUOTE]

I am not a swing guru but I have to disagree. I recently had a lesson where I was taped. At the end of last season I started to really pull the ball (low left) or hit weak fades. I too thought that I was coming across the line but according to the Pro and the video tape ( you can see it clearly frame by frame), my club is coming from the inside. My problem was with my hips. I was slding and pushing my my hip to the right on the back swing and then sliding them forward on the down swing. This sliding made me rely on timing and if I was off the I would slide the club across the ball open or slide and close the club down cause the ball to go low left. I am now working on keeping the hips quiet and rotating my shoulders and weight over to the right side with my hips turning as well. Pretty hard to argue with the tape and the analysis of a CPGA teaching pro.

[BC MIST]

Pretty hard to argue with the tape and the analysis of a CPGA teaching pro.

I have no difficulty disagreeing with some of modern day teaching and it's obvious that what one "sees" is often based on perception rather than sound physics. The moment of truth is impact, not a few inches before so what may appear to be an inside path, may actually not be inside.

However, just for a moment, let's say that you are right. Please explain how a pulled shot occurs. A pull being a ball flight that starts, for a righty, left of the target line and flies straight. This needs to be explained in terms of club head path AND club face position.

From my point of view, there are ONLY 9 possible ball flights. The ball can START left, on or right of the target line, AND for each of these the ball can curve left, right or fly straight. I need to know how an inside path (club head coming through impact on a path to the right of the target line) can cause a ball to start flying left of the target line. If the club face was closed relative to the target line, the ball would start a little right of the target line and hook severely to the left. How then does a ball start left and fly straight?

[Crackberry]

.......Think about keeping your left wrist in a bent position thru impact with your right wrist straight and the top of the grip and hands leading the club head well through impact.

How can one have passive hands with a thought directed at the hands? Isn't that contradictory?

In order to achieve passive hands, I think you would have to place your focus on something else (like your pivot/rotation) in order for your hands TO BE passive.

[byerxa]

I find it tough to let the swing complete on its own without trying to "help" it with my hands. Usually when my mechanics go off it gets worse, i.e., confidence starts to erode. Usually when I pull the ball it is because my hands try to get to the ball too soon and get ahead of everything else - really drives me nuts.

Once you get your swing basics under control start small with chips and pitches to regain that feeling of letting the swing happen and complete naturally. Even use putting to get that feeling of swinging the club and have the ball "get in the way" instead of trying to "hit" the ball. I have found it a long haul to get that sensation grooved and I often take 2 steps forward, 1.993 steps back

[BC MIST]

Usually when I pull the ball it is because my hands try to get to the ball too soon and get ahead of everything else - really drives me nuts.

Is there not a sequence of events that happen that produces either a good or less than ideal shot? If the wrists prematurely lose their hinge on the downswing, is it not because the trail elbow has started straightening too soon? And if the elbow straightens too soon, is it not because the trail shoulder has moved out too soon? If so, then the initial motion of the arms at transition is the key move. Instead of moving back to the ball, they must start down first, as though the golfer is trying to put his hands in his back right pocket. In so doing the trail shoulder does not roll, the trail elbow does not extend and the right wrist stays in a flexed back position THROUGH impact. Eliminating the CAUSE of the problem will get better results, faster, than wasting time working on an AFFECT.

[BigFlopper]

... If so, then the initial motion of the arms at transition is the key move. Instead of moving back to the ball, they must start down first, as though the golfer is trying to put his hands in his back right pocket. ...

It makes a lot of sense. Is starting the hands down a conscience move or a reaction/result of other parts of the swing.

[byerxa]

Eliminating the CAUSE of the problem will get better results, faster, than wasting time working on an AFFECT.

Most definitely. Finding the root cause is the trick. For me it can be many things:

- bad setup dooming me from the start
- take-away too much to the inside again dooming the swing from the start
- arms getting "disconnected" from body causing all kinds of flying elbow type problems
- simply swinging too hard for what I am capable of handling

The list goes on and that is what I find frustrating these days. Fix one, settle down for a while, then the next thing crops up. This is one of my goals this year is to better identify when a root cause is creeping in and deal with it better (especially on the course).

[ironmaster15213]

It makes a lot of sense. Is starting the hands down a conscience move or a reaction/result of other parts of the swing.

......This is a good question and as far as I know there are two basic trains of thought to get these correct positions at the start of the downswing. 1) Conscientiously drop your right shoulder,arms, hands etc back to the proper swing plane, (thus the feel that the hands are moving towards the right pocket). This is most often used by people that use minimal lower body movement such as Moe Norman and Natural golfers. 2) Most professionals will use the proper lower body motion to drop the shoulders,arms, hands onto the proper swing path naturally. It's all about the motion of the right hip at the beginning of the down swing cause the right shoulder wants to follow the right hip so if you use your legs correctly your right shoulder will drop down onto the proper swing plane. I have found that both swings have strengths and weaknesses, Keeping the lower body quiet will give you accuracy but you will lose some club head speed. Using your lower body will increase your club head speed if you do it correctly but lower body timeing issues will come into play and cause you to hit off line more often.

[BC MIST]

This is most often used by people that use minimal lower body movement such as Moe Norman and Natural golfers. 2) Most professionals will use the proper lower body motion to drop the shoulders,arms, hands onto the proper swing path naturally. It's all about the motion of the right hip at the beginning of the down swing cause the right shoulder wants to follow the right hip so if you use your legs correctly your right shoulder will drop down onto the proper swing plane. I have found that both swings have strengths and weaknesses, Keeping the lower body quiet will give you accuracy but you will lose some club head speed. Using your lower body will increase your club head speed if you do it correctly but lower body timeing issues will come into play and cause you to hit off line more often.

A “chicken or the egg” discussion usually ends with no resolution, but…

There is no doubt that both a horizontal/merry-go-round like motion of the hips and a vertical/Ferris wheel like motion of the arms are necessary for good ball striking, but the real questions are:
(1) Does the hip motion cause the arms to drop, or,
(2) Does the arms dropping cause the hips to move?

(1) Absolutely not, IMO. Go to the top of your backswing and stop. Keeping the arms/hands/shoulder package “silent,” slowly slide and rotate your hips forward and see what happens to the arms/hands package. If you don’t cheat, the arms/hands come OUT and significantly, to boot. The horizontal motion of the hips cannot CAUSE a vertical motion of the arms.

(2) YES, with an explanation. In any throwing type motion, including the golf swing, and without any CONSCIOUS thought, the lower body will move forward in anticipation of the arms/hands package returning to the ball, to stabilize the swing. Plus, if the golfer hits DOWN on the ball, the weight GETS shifted. Next time you practice, try hitting down on the ball taking a divot, and do NOT shift your weight. IMPOSSIBLE.

If the arms do not drop down onto the proper plane, the golfer has to compensate some where, usually a blocking motion, to hit the ball squarely. This is what hip thrusters, leg drivers do. Good golf can be played this way, but these players tend to be streaky. A sudden, more aggressive lower body motion not only results in a downswing plane that is too upright, but often changes the wrist configuration at transition or causes grip slippage, leading to more erratic shots. Learning to drop the arms into “the slot,” will improve consistency, and should not cause any loss in club head speed.

I disagree that Moe Norman used ”minimal lower body movement.” In fact, Moe had more lower body movement than average, principally because of his wide stance, similar to Ben Hogan and to George Knudson, the three of which were the best ball strikers, ever, IMO. What did Tiger Woods, Jack Nicklaus, Greg Norman, Nick Faldo, Nick Price and many others, ALL do to improve their games? They all FLATTENED their swings and in so doing, actually reduced the amount of excessive lower body movement which resulted in much better play.

IMO, it is a lot easier to learn to drop the arms on plane, hitting down on the ball to have the weight get shifted, that to shift the weight and then have to learn how to compensate for being above plane.

[ironmaster15213]

Man that's a lot of writing, All I have to say is listen to Ben Hogan himself and what he tried to do, just go to U Tube and print Ben Hogan, look for the video that's 1 minute and 13 seconds long, click on it and learn that it's all on the proper motion and pull of the lower body on the upper body not the pushing of the arms and shoulders against the lower body.

[BigFlopper]

Man that's a lot of writing, All I have to say is listen to Ben Hogan himself and what he tried to do, just go to U Tube and print Ben Hogan, look for the video that's 1 minute and 13 seconds long, click on it and learn that it's all on the proper motion and pull of the lower body on the upper body not the pushing of the arms and shoulders against the lower body.

That is one sweet swing ...

[mpare]

What does Ben know about the swing, Frank?

Man that's a lot of writing, All I have to say is listen to Ben Hogan himself and what he tried to do, just go to U Tube and print Ben Hogan, look for the video that's 1 minute and 13 seconds long, click on it and learn that it's all on the proper motion and pull of the lower body on the upper body not the pushing of the arms and shoulders against the lower body.

[BC MIST]

What does Ben know about the swing, Frank?

Hogan the player is revered by most and his golf swing is the second best that I have seen on video. But, Hogan the instructor, is lacking, here and there. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to know that, for most of us, feel is not always real in our golf swings. While Hogan felt that the hip motion caused the dropping of the arms, it is just not possible. Take a couple of seconds and go to the top of a backswing and stop. Turn the hips slowly and see what the arms do. They come out. Simple as that. As the hips turn counter clockwise, so do the shoulders turn counter clockwise. The last time I looked, the arms were connected to the shoulders and so they will turn counterclockwise, too, UNLESS the golfer learns to drop the arms, independently and simultaneously.

If Hogan's fundamentals are not to be questioned, and were to be followed by the masses, 99% of all golfers would be 50 yard slicers. Imagine all of us with the right hand grip that Hogan has - look in the book. Hogan's book was not about the 5 fundamentals, but about how NOT to hook the ball. His quest was to learn to control his uncontrollable duck hook, which he did by severely weakening the right hand grip, cupping the left wrist and being able to hold off the full release until the club shaft was almost parallel to the ground in the through swing. Anyone coming into the ball as much from the inside as Hogan's modern swing did, would likely hook the ball, and yet his ball flight was a little left to right. (push/fade) Why? Because of the fundamentally incorrect compensations he perfected.

While I drool over his swing and consider him the best player ever, I don't believe everything I read in his instructions or what other pseudo experts like MacLean and Leadbetter say about what Hogan did.

[bobcat 2]

BC MIst is right on the money. If we make a good backswing with the right sequence and coil, if we drop our arms our legs release to the target and our body turns with a weight transfer. Take a dish towel or hand towel and make a full backswing, back ninety degrees to the target. Now simply throw the towel straight down behind you as hard as you can. If you made a coiled backswing and full shoulder turn your arms will end up straight down the target line from your setup and all your weight will be on your left side and hips just square or slightly open. You are in a perfect pro position after impact. This is how they do it. They do not initiate the swing in their lower body although it feels to them they do since the coiled release of the lower body is so great.

There are several reasons the upper body starts the swing.

As BC Mist stated, the lower body turn will cause the arms to swing out over the top, not stright down as they must. The left arm will be off the body too soon in the downswing, bad news club face is wide open at impact and swing path is out to in.

The club head has the furthest to travel, the lower body has not much at all to move. If the hips start or the left knee start the downswing they will far outrace the clubhead and the player will not be behind the ball at impact in good position as Hogan was. Had he started his downswing with his hip turn as he said, no way he would be able to be behind the ball and still square to his target line. All his hit would have been gone. Club needs to be off the rear hip as it turns through the ball.

We think in our arms and hands. Our lower body operates on auto pilot. This is how we are made and it is our survival mode. If you have ever swam the breast stroke you are in arms and the legs just do their thing automatically, but if you transfer the conscious effort to the legs, the pull and drive of the arms is lessened. They cannot operate on their own. Same for chopping a tree. Tremendous weight shift and pivot but we are in our arms, lower body is on auto pilot. Golf instructors are forever trying to get students to think in their lower bodies and their arms are never in the correct positions in the down swing and the whole motion is forced and off balance, we pull out of the swing (looked up, no our arms do not know what to do) our right shoulder fires from the top as it is pulled out and does not know what to do.

A good golf swing is nothing more than a full turn back and a swing down.The lower body will take care of itself in a very powerful and well timed way. How you swing down is a whole other topic. But I think the best instruction is VJs swing as profiled in Golf Illustrated 1/09, he just drops his left wrist straight down.

[BC MIST]

A good golf swing is nothing more than a full turn back and a swing down.The lower body will take care of itself in a very powerful and well timed way. How you swing down is a whole other topic. But I think the best instruction is VJs swing as profiled in Golf Illustrated 1/09, he just drops his left wrist straight down.

By also disagreeing with some of Hogan's five, you are likewise sticking your neck out, potentially subjecting your self to the sticks and stones that occasionally get tossed at those who question that which is commonly believed. Glad I am no longer alone in this regard. Hogan was revered as a player and rightfully so and many look upon "Five Fundamentals" as The Bible of golf, never to be questioned. Since Dave Pelz has already written two Bibles about golf, there really isn't room for another.

Regardless, if a golfer thinks something is, it is, even if it isn't.

[mpare]

What I find interesting is that Ben Hogan couldn't see these "self-evident" truths even though he devoted his entire life to understanding the mechanics of the golf swing, the very swing that he depended upon to earn his livelihood. Something tells me that you and Hogan are probably both right. I know that dropping the arms into the slot will cause the legs and hips to move in the correct way. At the same time, I have a hard time accepting that Ben Hogan wasn't sufficiently aware of what was going on with his swing not to know that his downswing was initiated by his arms and not his legs. If he sensed that his downswing was initiated from the ground up, then I believe that is exactly what was happening for him.

[BigFlopper]

What I find interesting is that Ben Hogan couldn't see these "self-evident" truths even though he devoted his entire life to understanding the mechanics of the golf swing, the very swing that he depended upon to earn his livelihood. Something tells me that you and Hogan are probably both right. I know that dropping the arms into the slot will cause the legs and hips to move in the correct way. At the same time, I have a hard time accepting that Ben Hogan wasn't sufficiently aware of what was going on with his swing not to know that his downswing was initiated by his arms and not his legs. If he sensed that his downswing was initiated from the ground up, then I believe that is exactly what was happening for him.

I think you are correct. This clip of his swing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0 shows his arms still moving back when as his hips/legs start forward. It looks like he is letting his arms and hands just drop once they change direction.

[ironmaster15213]

Well maybe someone thinks Tiger may know something about a golf swing, Go on U-Tube and watch any slow motion swing, especially the Arnold Palmer tournament swing of 2008. Lower body initiates the downswing with arms dropping down on plane into the slot but always being slightly pulled by the lower body. I understand where these gentlemen are coming from cause I've seen my share of swings destroyed by incorrect lower body movements but there is a correct way to use your lower body to start the downswing but there's not a lot of room for error. Everyone keeps talking about turning the hips but there is no turn at the beginning of the downswing, just a sort of lateral bump and then a turn. It's all very subtle but works like a charm when done correctly. One very important thing is starting with your spine tilted away from the target with your head level. When you start the downswing the slight lateral move of your hips will cause your sping angle to increase cause your head and neck are still where you started more of less. This increase of your spine angle helps make it very easy to drop your shoulder and hands down to the proper plane. It's very important that your hands and shoulders move at the same speed to retain your angles so you don't start to releasing them too early before impact. I would love to talk more but this room is not heated well and I'm freezing so talk to you later.

[BigFlopper]

...there is no turn at the beginning of the downswing, just a sort of lateral bump and then a turn. ...

So if you just do the lateral bump too long, is that the slide I hear about?

[ironmaster15213]

So if you just do the lateral bump too long, is that the slide I hear about?

........Bingo!!!! you got it!!! the hips pull the hands and arms back to the inside thus squaring the clubface at impact before the hands etc... go back to the inside around the spine. If you bump too far before turning you don't allow the hands to square up and it's off to the right for your ball flight. Coming from the inside with an open face to the target gets you a push. Solid contact but a push none the less, remember the club face should contact the ball about 2 degees open and the ball should rebound off of the face square to the target line and that's what's important. Man it's cold down here.

[mpare]

I know things are tough in the States, Frank, but you really should move out of that igloo.

........ Man it's cold down here.

[ironmaster15213]

I know things are tough in the States, Frank, but you really should move out of that igloo.

......I think I'll go outside and rub noses with the first girl I meet

[BC MIST]

I know that dropping the arms into the slot will cause the legs and hips to move in the correct way. At the same time, I have a hard time accepting that Ben Hogan wasn't sufficiently aware of what was going on with his swing not to know that his downswing was initiated by his arms and not his legs. If he sensed that his downswing was initiated from the ground up, then I believe that is exactly what was happening for him.

The issue in my argument is NOT, "What part of the body moves FIRST?" Simple observation shows that we all move the lower body first, as it must. The issue is, "Does Hogan's 'level left' movement of the hips CAUSE the arms to drop vertically into the slot?" NO!!!

Instead of arguing that because Hogan said something, it must be right, take 5 seconds and do the movement I described above and you will have a "Eureka!!" moment. When you stop at the top and horizontally move your hips, the arms come out. The shoulders are connected to your upper torso and when it rotates counter clockwise, so do the shoulders. However, because of the structure of the shoulder joints, the golfer can contradict the natural outward motion, by learning to drop the arms into the slot, and that is what Hogan did. He did not express that he felt this happen, obviously because it had become a subconscious move. He felt the hips move, instead.

Do the demonstration and you will understand. "Just do it."

[BC MIST]

the hips pull the hands and arms back to the inside thus squaring the clubface at impact before the hands etc... go back to the inside around the spine. If you bump too far before turning you don't allow the hands to square up and it's off to the right for your ball flight. Coming from the inside with an open face to the target gets you a push. Solid contact but a push none the less, remember the club face should contact the ball about 2 degees open and the ball should rebound off of the face square to the target line and that's what's important. Man it's cold down here.

We may actually, more or less, agree on a couple of things:

(1) The club face squares because the hands move around the body to the left/inside. Many golfers, including instructors, don't get this. Golfers are still taught to "swing down the line," one of the worst things a golfer should do. You say that it is the hips that pull the arms to the inside. Try making your same hip rotation WHILE allowing the left arm to become disconnected (swing down the line) from the left upper chest, and see what happens. Yes, the hips rotate, but it's the left arm being connected to the upper chest that CAUSES the arms to come around and square the face.

(2) The club face MUST be slightly open at SEPARATION, along with an inside path, to hit a PURE draw.

BTW: Read what a fellow Pennsylvanian instructor has to say about Hogan's hips/arms, here: http://www.golfbetterproductions.com/ben-hogan.asp

[ironmaster15213]

We are very,very close. But you don't seem to see the forest thru the trees when it comes to what the lower body does. You said it all when you said Yes the hips rotate but it's the left arm conected to the upper chest that causes the arms to come around and square the club face at impact. You are right about the left arm being connected to the upper chest but it's the pulling of the lower body during that rotation that moves that upper body,arms, hands club to square position and then around and up afterwords. I'm at work so I can't stay on long, at least it's warm here.

[BC MIST]

But you don't seem to see the forest thru the trees when it comes to what the lower body does. .

When you have done my suggestion above ("When you stop at the top and horizontally move your hips, the arms come out.") there won't be any trees blocking the truth.

Regardless, you are still going to turn your hips while the arms come down and I am still going to drop my arms while my hips turn and we are both going to hit a pure draw, straight down the middle because we have been doing this for decades. But I do sympathize with the more novice golfers who decide to spin their hips. Sphere Hunter will be collecting thousands of golf balls from the right rough.

Ben Hogan

s advocate