Multiple Penalties

[BC MIST]

In stroke play, a competitor’s tee shot comes to rest in a greenside bunker. He moves
a loose impediment in the hazard, and in doing so, causes the ball to move. He then
makes a stroke at the ball but misses. Realizing he had been required to replace the ball,
he now replaces the ball to its original position. He then hits the ball onto the green and
sinks the putt. What is his score for the hole?

[nokids]

(a) In stroke play, a competitor’s tee shot comes to rest in a greenside bunker.
(b) He moves a loose impediment in the hazard, and in doing so, causes the ball to move.
(c) He then makes a stroke at the ball but misses.
(d) Realizing he had been required to replace the ball, he now replaces the ball to its original position.
(e) He then hits the ball onto the green and sinks the putt.
(f) What is his score for the hole?

(a) 1 stroke.
(b) two stroke penalty, Rule 23-1.
(c) 1 stroke for missing the shot + a two stroke penalty for playing the ball from the wrong spot, Rule 20-7.
(d) no penalty, Rule 20-7 (Note 3: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a wrong place, there is no additional penalty for substituting a ball when not permitted.)
(e) 2 strokes.
(f) 8.

[nokids]

i hope BC_Mist kept the answer sheet.

[BC MIST]

i hope BC_Mist kept the answer sheet.

I have no answer sheet, but...here's how I would rule on my own scenario.
Stroke 1. Tee shot.
Strokes 2 and 3 - Penalty strokes for moving loose impediments. When he moved the LI's he accidentally moved the ball and did not replace it. One act resulted in two rules being breached, but he would only be penalized two strokes. Rule 1-4/12 (2)
Stroke 4 - Whiff in bunker.
Strokes 5 and 6 - Penalty strokes. He picked up the ball and did not replace it. 18-2(a)
Stroke 7 - Bunker shot to green
Stroke 8 - Putt

Having said the above, I question my ruling because... Stroke 4 was played from a wrong place and the ball would be in play. Decision 20-7c/2 says that by picking the ball up and playing from the right place, he would then be penalized a total of 4 strokes, 2 more that what I gave him. My question is: By moving loose impediments, moving the ball and not replacing it and then playing from a wrong place, is all of this be single act - multiple rules breached (A caused B caused C) and only one two stroke penalty would be applied?

AAA? Gerry? Help!!!

[gbower]

My take on it (which is probably wrong ) is that he had the 2 stroke penalty for moving the LI and because he had a stroke (whiff) we're now working in a new penalty situation by picking up his ball and moving it again so I would add the extra 2 stroke penalty. If he hadn't had the whiff it would have just been the 2. I'm sure AAA will pipe up on this one. Always interesting problems.

[BC MIST]

My take on it (which is probably wrong ) is that he had the 2 stroke penalty for moving the LI and because he had a stroke (whiff) we're now working in a new penalty situation by picking up his ball and moving it again so I would add the extra 2 stroke penalty. If he hadn't had the whiff it would have just been the 2. I'm sure AAA will pipe up on this one. Always interesting problems.

Upon further consideration:
1. moving loose impediments and at the same time, moving and not replacing the ball - 2 penalty strokes.
2. after whiff, picking up ball and not replacing it - 2 penalty strokes
3. playing from a wrong place - 2 penalty strokes. He had a chance to correct his error, but did not. Not a serious breach.
4. Four strokes made at the ball.
Total: 4 strokes + 6 penalty strokes = 10.

What do you think? Good question for the Level 4 exam?

Theme of the scenario - How to make a right place into a wrong place into a right place into a wrong place in 4 penalty strokes or less.

[gbower]

That I think is the way I got that one. I'm getting so tired of going over senarios and quizzes. I'll be so glad when the Level 4 is over with.

[BC MIST]

That I think is the way I got that one. I'm getting so tired of going over senarios and quizzes. I'll be so glad when the Level 4 is over with.

And you have passed.

[PapaPat]

Good luck if you are taking a crack at your Level 4.

I have raised this question dealing with two penalties in one action before and never been able to find a satisfactory answer. Player does a TC Chen and the ball comes back and hits him. Okay, 2 penalties in the same action and the consensus among those I trust is one 1 stroke penalty. My quandry is, why does 1-4/12 start off with, "Prior to making a stroke.....? The situation described is during the stroke. I started the season with two of these niggling things and have managed to figure out the answer to the other one as I read through the new Decision Book.

[PapaPat]

Good luck if you are taking a crack at your Level 4.

I have raised this question dealing with two penalties in one action before and never been able to find a satisfactory answer. Player does a TC Chen and the ball comes back and hits him. Okay, 2 penalties in the same action and the consensus among those I trust is one 1 stroke penalty. My quandry is, why does 1-4/12 start off with, "Prior to making a stroke.....? The situation described is during the stroke. I started the season with two of these niggling things and have managed to figure out the answer to the other one as I read through the new Decision Book.

Playing around on Leith Society this morning I find that they disagree with this being only a one stroke penalty. The discussion is in In Depth under

NEW: Rule 1: MGA Quiz # 24
bobtee -- Tuesday, 23 March 2010, at 04:01 (GMT).

Now, I don't know who to believe. Of course it is unlikely to happen very often, but it was brought to me last years by two of our members after it happened in their match.

[BC MIST]

Playing around on Leith Society this morning I find that they disagree with this being only a one stroke penalty. The discussion is in In Depth under

NEW: Rule 1: MGA Quiz # 24
bobtee -- Tuesday, 23 March 2010, at 04:01 (GMT).

Now, I don't know who to believe. Of course it is unlikely to happen very often, but it was brought to me last years by two of our members after it happened in their match.

Change the scenario just a little.

A player is in a bunker and as he takes his back swing, brushes the sand. He continues his swing, hits the ball, it strikes the lip and comes back and hits him. 1 penalty( 2 strokes) or two penalties (1 more stroke)?

[AAA]

I got the MGA answer when I did the quiz. I think Bobtee is in a minority.
There is another site used by by some LS members and the MGA answer was the favoured one.

[PapaPat]

Change the scenario just a little.

A player is in a bunker and as he takes his back swing, brushes the sand. He continues his swing, hits the ball, it strikes the lip and comes back and hits him. 1 penalty( 2 strokes) or two penalties (1 more stroke)?

Putting aside my ongoing quandary about "prior to making a stroke", since a backswing and a stroke are different actions, I would now say that in your scenario, it is likely 3 strokes. However, yesterday I would probably have said 2 (one action). When the real life TC Chen thing first came up last year, I said 2 when asked but found that in checking with my fellow RO's, they all felt that it should be just one (one action). Also, on LS they seem to be expressing opinions without being definitive about their answers and explanations. AAA, I've not looked into it closely as yet, but has MGA offered an explanation and support for their answer and does the USGA agree with it?

[AAA]

I don't know about the USGA but the MGA said 'Double hit and getting hit by own ball are separate actions'
I can't see any problem with that statement.

[PapaPat]

I don't know about the USGA but the MGA said 'Double hit and getting hit by own ball are separate actions'
I can't see any problem with that statement.

I guess I am just way more anal than most, an underlying characteristic that I believe has led me to become a Rules Official, by the way. For the MGA to make this statement, in such a debate-producing area due to the vagueness of the terms "act" and "action", without any explanation feels high-handed to me. While it is likely that their interpretation is correct, I would like to see a more supported explanation from them.

On the other hand, perhaps the R&A/USGA needs to revisit decision (1-4/12) which as you know is two pages already, in order to clarify "prior to making a stroke", "act" and "action". Personally, I would like to see them just get rid of the whole concept.

[AAA]

The MGA have their answers checkrd by a high ranking USGA rules dept official.
It doesn't necessarily mean they are the official line ofcourse