TPC Sawgrass

[Andru]

Out of curiosity I checked the price of the TPC at saw grass. The course The players championship is played on every year.

Regular-Full Membership
$15,000 Initiation Fee Approx 20,000 CAD
$3,675 Annual Dues Approx. 4800 CAD

Member and Family pay no greens fee at TPC at Sawgrass.
Access to regular Locker Room.
Can bring up to one foursome to the TPC at Sawgrass; accompanied guests will receive 50% off current guest green fees.
TPC Network privileges.
30 Days in advance Starting Reservations.
Charge privileges.
Practice balls supplied.


Hunt Club 30K
Royal Ottawa 25K
Kanata Lakes 20K

Hmm I'm not sure where I'm going with this. It just stings a little to know for less money I could be playing a course the Pros consider the 5th major.

[mpare]

The fact of the matter is that we pay a lot of money to play golf around here. By comparison, in Halifax I was a member at a course (Oakfield) that hosted two Canadian Amateurs. My wife and I paid no more in annual dues that I am paying at Manderley and Manderley is one of the most reasonably priced spots in this area. Someday someone can explain our regional pricing scheme to you and me, Andru. I can't wait to hear the explanation.

[Andru]

The fact of the matter is that we pay a lot of money to play golf around here. By comparison, in Halifax I was a member at a course (Oakfield) that hosted two Canadian Amateurs. My wife and I paid no more in annual dues that I am paying at Manderley and Manderley is one of the most reasonably priced spots in this area. Someday someone can explain our regional pricing scheme to you and me, Andru. I can't wait to hear the explanation.

I've been struggling all winter, I don't know where to join. I play enough to warrant a membership but I can't pull the trigger on anything. I'm just not satisfied with the bang for the buck I'm getting. Manderley is a little too far me ( 25-30 min Drive ) or I would probably join. I've been paired with some members there on a Saturday morning and it's a fine group, very friendly.

[broken27]

Pricing seems fair enough, but from what I understand, Sawgrass is the type of course that can rapidly become "not-fun" to play on. They had that little deal with those two 5-6 handicappers on a mission to play all the PGA courses, and they seemed to blow up a few times. For me, that's too much course.

Looks damn gorgeous, but I'm sure there's better value out there for the mid-range handicapper out there.

Dan

[Andru]

Pricing seems fair enough, but from what I understand, Sawgrass is the type of course that can rapidly become "not-fun" to play on. They had that little deal with those two 5-6 handicappers on a mission to play all the PGA courses, and they seemed to blow up a few times. For me, that's too much course.

Looks damn gorgeous, but I'm sure there's better value out there for the mid-range handicapper out there.

Dan

The harder the better as far as I'm concerned. As long as it's fair. That's why i'm addicted to premium courses.

I was just pointing out the fact that you can play a PGA quality course year round for less than one of the "Premier" Courses here in Ottawa for a short summer. I'm feeling bitter.

[broken27]

The harder the better as far as I'm concerned. As long as it's fair. That's why i'm addicted to premium courses.

I was just pointing out the fact that you can play a PGA quality course year round for less than one of the "Premier" Courses here in Ottawa for a short summer. I'm feeling bitter.

I like premium courses as well, and agree to an extent, but when you still measure golf by the number of balls you lose, Sawgrass may be too tough to enjoy...

Dan

[Andru]

I like premium courses as well, and agree to an extent, but when you still measure golf by the number of balls you lose, Sawgrass may be too tough to enjoy...

Dan

I understand what you're saying but, you're not going to play tournament tees and tournament rough evey week. So it may not be that tough. But I don't think I'd have fun playing PGA conditions all the time. I'd have to agree that may be too tough. Although. You would probably become a pretty good scambler.

[broken27]

I understand what you're saying but, you're not going to play tournament tees and tournament rough evey week. So it may not be that tough. But I don't think I'd have fun playing PGA conditions all the time. I'd have to agree that may be too tough. Although. You would probably become a pretty good scrambler after a few years.

True about the scrambling and also the conditions. I just think that Sawgrass might be a step above my ability as a course. Maybe that's based partially on its tour conditions right now, or just the fact that we only see it from the pro tee point of view. I don't know, but I would prefer something more conquerable like Cascades, that rewards good shooting.

Dan

[Andru]

True about the scrambling and also the conditions. I just think that Sawgrass might be a step above my ability as a course. Maybe that's based partially on its tour conditions right now, or just the fact that we only see it from the pro tee point of view. I don't know, but I would prefer something more conquerable like Cascades, that rewards good shooting.

Dan

Cascades is nice. I like most of the holes and the scenery. I'd love to see bent grass from tee to green and maybe tweak a few holes. It has great potential.

Problem is $$$ and would anyone pay 80 bucks to play there after the improvements.

[Deep Woods]

The fact of the matter is that we pay a lot of money to play golf around here.

I guess its perspective and where you're from. Whenever I lived around Toronto and Montreal, golf stopped becoming a regular thing and became something "special" to plan. I found I had to travel further AND pay more...

I personally find the golf options and prices good. The winter, that's another story...

[redgun22]

Hmm I'm not sure where I'm going with this. It just stings a little to know for less money I could be playing a course the Pros consider the 5th major.

A few points from my perspective...

1) TPC Sawgrass benefits from having hundreds of green fee players per week paying US$300 plus untold hundreds on souvenirs at the Pro Shop... so memberships are heavily subsidised by green fee players.

2) The cost of high-end clubs in Ottawa is very reasonable when compared to Toronto and Montreal... e.g. $75K initiation for the Prestige ClubLink clubs in Toronto.

3) Three words : Supply and demand... if there wasn't anyone willing to pay big $ to join the Hunt and the Royal (which is now also at $30K init BTW), they would have to charge less. As it is, both clubs have lengthy waiting lists.

Good luck finding a place to play... unfortunately we don't have any TPCs around here... and we can't do much about winter

[Colby]

Then you've got some clubs at the opposite end of the spectrum...

From the Bighorn Website http://www.bighorngolf.com:

BIGHORN Golf Club has established its reputation among the top private clubs in the United States. With a total commitment to exclusivity, only member and member-sponsored play is allowed. Membership at BIGHORN Golf Club is available only to BIGHORN property owners.

Club $50,000

Provides use of Clubhouse, Spa & Fitness Center, dining and tennis facilities. No golf course access.

Individual Golf $200,000

Individual, EQUITY membership, provides full use of two world-class golf courses and club facilities.

Dual Golf $325,000

Member plus spouse EQUITY membership, provides full use of two world-class golf courses and club facilities

And checking out the prices of the housing at the same site, the cheapeast is just under 1.5M US for a lovely home, or 975K US for a simple lot, 1.895M US for a view lot!

Just pennies a day!

[Andru]

A few points from my perspective...

1) TPC Sawgrass benefits from having hundreds of green fee players per week paying US$300 plus untold hundreds on souvenirs at the Pro Shop... so memberships are heavily subsidised by green fee players.

2) The cost of high-end clubs in Ottawa is very reasonable when compared to Toronto and Montreal... e.g. $75K initiation for the Prestige ClubLink clubs in Toronto.

3) Three words : Supply and demand... if there wasn't anyone willing to pay big $ to join the Hunt and the Royal (which is now also at $30K init BTW), they would have to charge less. As it is, both clubs have lengthy waiting lists.

Good luck finding a place to play... unfortunately we don't have any TPCs around here... and we can't do much about winter

I never complained about winter.

I get your point but it still stings. (TPC) So much more for less. Ah well. Either move or suck it up.

As far as comparing Hunt or the Royal to King Valley or Grey Stone? I don't know about that. But I get your point.

But you're right it's supply and demand. There's nothing I can do.

[powerlefty]

The fact of the matter is that we pay a lot of money to play golf around here. By comparison, in Halifax I was a member at a course (Oakfield) that hosted two Canadian Amateurs. My wife and I paid no more in annual dues that I am paying at Manderley and Manderley is one of the most reasonably priced spots in this area. Someday someone can explain our regional pricing scheme to you and me, Andru. I can't wait to hear the explanation.

I always find teh pricing interesting between Halifax and Ottawa. In Ottawa, memberships are fairly expensive, but green fees reasonable. In Halifax memberships are comparatively inexpensive - probably running about 50% of what it would cost at a comparable course here. However green fees are probably30% higher!

[redgun22]

:
As far as comparing Hunt or the Royal to King Valley or Grey Stone? I don't know about that. But I get your point.

But you're right it's supply and demand. There's nothing I can do.

You're right... a better comparison would have been with St.Georges or the National GC (or Royal Montreal or Mt. Bruno in Montreal)... but I couldn't find any info on their initiation fees, which are likely even higher than King Valley or Grey Stone.

I wasn't comparing the quality of the courses... just the fact that they are among the best and most exclusive courses in their respective regions and thus will command premium $... and Ottawa premium $ are less than half of Toronto/Montreal premium $, so we don't have it too bad.

The best and most exclusive courses will always exact a premium... and if the courses/facilities are not good enough to satisfy the most discerning (and wealthy) golfers in the region, some enterprising person will build something better. That was the original plan for Eagle Creek - to become the "new" high-end private club in town. There were lots of factors, but I think that ultimately that didn't happen because it was too far from downtown to attract enough big $ members... which became good news for green fee golfers in this region!

While we don't have the big business barons or the population of Toronto or Montreal, Ottawa has more than it's fair share of affluent residents... and given that, I think that our green fees and membership rates are reasonable. But again, as you agreed, it all comes down to supply and demand...

[Andru]

You're right... a better comparison would have been with St.Georges or the National GC (or Royal Montreal or Mt. Bruno in Montreal)... but I couldn't find any info on their initiation fees, which are likely even higher than King Valley or Grey Stone.

I wasn't comparing the quality of the courses... just the fact that they are among the best and most exclusive courses in their respective regions and thus will command premium $... and Ottawa premium $ are less than half of Toronto/Montreal premium $, so we don't have it too bad.

The best and most exclusive courses will always exact a premium... and if the courses/facilities are not good enough to satisfy the most discerning (and wealthy) golfers in the region, some enterprising person will build something better. That was the original plan for Eagle Creek - to become the "new" high-end private club in town. There were lots of factors, but I think that ultimately that didn't happen because it was too far from downtown to attract enough big $ members... which became good news for green fee golfers in this region!

While we don't have the big business barons or the population of Toronto or Montreal, Ottawa has more than it's fair share of affluent residents... and given that, I think that our green fees and membership rates are reasonable. But again, as you agreed, it all comes down to supply and demand...

I could have done without the first paragraph, but I'll repeat "point taken".

You're assuming the best in each region as equals. That was my point. They are not. Comparing a club in Toronto with approx the same entrance fee is more appropriate. If you're comparing return on the dollar. Which was the orignal context of this thread.

[mpare]

I always find teh pricing interesting between Halifax and Ottawa. In Ottawa, memberships are fairly expensive, but green fees reasonable. In Halifax memberships are comparatively inexpensive - probably running about 50% of what it would cost at a comparable course here. However green fees are probably30% higher!

I had not really noticed that the green fees were much higher in the Halifax area, but you may be right. However, there were plenty of bargains. Courses like Granite Springs and Chester, for example, only costs $40 to play and each is a beautiful and challenging course. Admittedly, my home course (Oakfield) was more expensive to play ($65), but with over 700 members, we did not really want to many green fee players.

You are correct about memberships. They are very steep here compared to the East coast. Supply and demand dictates the price range, as one other writer noted. As it is recent studies have shown that the number of rounds being played in decreasing. If that is so, then we may find that the prices may correspondingly drop as an inducement. Let's hope.

[Kilroy]

I paid $70 for my round at Crowbush in 2000. A member of the club I played with payed $700 for his annual fee. He had a standing reservation at 7:00am every day.

Must be nice.

[Farzin]

Supply and demand dictates the price range, as one other writer noted. As it is recent studies have shown that the number of rounds being played in decreasing. If that is so, then we may find that the prices may correspondingly drop as an inducement. Let's hope.

IMO- It may not be so. I had a conversation with one of club coowners' wife. She said that prices may go up. I asked " Shouldn't prices go down because of less demand and more courses?" She said: " If there isn't enough revenue, they will increase the prices to offset the cost."
Well, figure that out on supply and demand.

[Colby]

I paid $70 for my round at Crowbush in 2000. A member of the club I played with payed $700 for his annual fee. He had a standing reservation at 7:00am every day.

Must be nice.

I had a similar experience this last summer at Brudenell, in fact, here is information from the GolfPEI site,

http://www.golfpei.ca/opening_dates.php

I don't know if it is for 2003/2004 or when, but it gives some approximation as Crowbush is listed at 80.00 on the page.

[Andru]

IMO- It may not be so. I had a conversation with one of club coowners' wife. She said that prices may go up. I asked " Shouldn't prices go down because of less demand and more courses?" She said: " If there isn't enough revenue, they will increase the prices to offset the cost."
Well, figure that out on supply and demand.

That makes no sense. I guess they know better. I've never owned a golf course.

[Farzin]

That makes no sense. I guess they know better. .

They know better, they make players to compensate for the loss of revenue by paying more per round.
It makes no sense to me either, but apparently makes sence to them. IMO

[mpare]

They know better, they make players to compensate for the loss of revenue by paying more per round.
It makes no sense to me either, but apparently makes sence to them. IMO

That pricing strategy will only work up to a point when golfers stop paying the escalating fees and the clubs cannot continue to cover their overhead and make a profit. Then the clubs will be forced either to reduce the price so as to entice a sufficient number of new golfers to join the fun or declare bankruptcy. As a golfer, Iwould prefer to see the former rather than the latter occur.

[Colby]

That pricing strategy will only work up to a point when golfers stop paying the escalating fees and the clubs cannot continue to cover their overhead and make a profit. Then the clubs will be forced either to reduce the price so as to entice a sufficient number of new golfers to join the fun or declare bankruptcy. As a golfer, Iwould prefer to see the former rather than the latter occur.

Or go the way of Cedarhill and make it semi-private, allowing daily fee players to play.

[Deep Woods]

IMO- It may not be so. I had a conversation with one of club coowners' wife. She said that prices may go up. I asked " Shouldn't prices go down because of less demand and more courses?" She said: " If there isn't enough revenue, they will increase the prices to offset the cost."

I think we all know the structure: you change price to maximize revenue, so if 10 golfers will pay $20, its better than 20 golfers who pay $10. When they reach that ceiling, they are forced to pull back prices, go bankrupt, or design a new revenue source.

A friend near Toronto, who owns 2 courses now, said his revenue isn't huge, its the investment in the land that pays off for him. When hes ready to retire, it will be a pricy piece of land.

[broken27]

I think we all know the structure: you change price to maximize revenue, so if 10 golfers will pay $20, its better than 20 golfers who pay $10. When they reach that ceiling, they are forced to pull back prices, go bankrupt, or design a new revenue source.

A friend near Toronto, who owns 2 courses now, said his revenue isn't huge, its the investment in the land that pays off for him. When hes ready to retire, it will be a pricy piece of land.

Supply and demand economics in this case involve a sliding scale where you find the equilibrium point of optimal business practice.

For a golf course, the breaking point would be where daily fee golfers weren't ready to play your course to make up for relatively discounted membership costs. The whole while, you keep in mind that the more people using your facilities means more money spent on upkeep. Beer sales etc could offset that as well, I suppose....

My point is that the whole thing is probably far more or less complex than we'd likely imagine. So many factors.

Dan

[Deep Woods]

My point is that the whole thing is probably far more or less complex than we'd likely imagine. So many factors.

I was simplying, but I think were making the same point.

[mberube]

$15,000 Initiation Fee Approx 20,000 CAD
$3,675 Annual Dues Approx. 4800 CAD
Hunt Club 30K
Royal Ottawa 25K
Kanata Lakes 20K

15000$ US And you can play all year. No snow!!!! I would join tomorrow

[Andru]

15000$ US And you can play all year. No snow!!!! I would join tomorrow

Me too.

[The Shtick]

I think we all know the structure: you change price to maximize revenue, so if 10 golfers will pay $20, its better than 20 golfers who pay $10. When they reach that ceiling, they are forced to pull back prices, go bankrupt, or design a new revenue source.

Actually, having 20 golfers paying $10 can generate more revenue. Having more people increases proshop sales, rental equipment/carts, reataurant, and of course beer cart sales. In our region, with soo many choices, this is much more effective than charging more and having less people. Of course, what courses do here is offer up a lot of two-for-ones instead of simply lowering prices for everyone.