moving ball

[leftylucas]

This is not a trick question.

Situation:

You have marked your ball on the putting surface and on a severe incline. There is also a strong wind that could start the ball moving once you replace your marker with the ball. You understand that if the ball moves once you address it that it is a penalty. Knowing this you hover the putter behind the ball in case it moves so that you have not "addressed the ball". The ball moves while you are hovering the putter behind the ball. You mark the ball, replace it to its original position and hover a gain and then strike the ball into the hole


Question:

Is there a penalty?

[jvincent]

Yes there is a penalty.

Since you did not cause the ball to move, the position that it came to rest at was where it should have been played from. By moving back to its original position, you have played from the wrong place and would be penalized for that.

Assuming you have not committed a serious breach by playing from the wrong place then you are subject to a two stroke penalty.

[Weazl]

Sort of on topic, does the sanme apply one the ball is in the rough and you address the ball and moves in the grass? I hate that when that happens!!!!

[leftylucas]

Yes there is a penalty.

Since you did not cause the ball to move, the position that it came to rest at was where it should have been played from. By moving back to its original position, you have played from the wrong place and would be penalized for that.

Assuming you have not committed a serious breach by playing from the wrong place then you are subject to a two stroke penalty.

OK, thanks, what I really wanted to know was if I hover the putter is that considered "addressing the ball"

[jvincent]

Yes. Just remember that there is a definition for when a ball has moved.

Move or Moved
A ball is deemed to have “moved” if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

[leftylucas]

So if I hover the putter and the balls moves how the heck is that considered to haved moved the ball?? The club never touches the ground. Proximity does not make something move. That cannot be right. If I hover the club 3 feet from the ball and it moves am I deemed to have made it move? I dont get it.

[Kilroy]

OK, thanks, what I really wanted to know was if I hover the putter is that considered "addressing the ball"

No, not if you have not grounded your putter.

Addressing the Ball
A player has "addressed the ball" when he has taken his stance and has also grounded his club, except that in a hazard a player has addressed the ball when he has taken his stance.

I think it was Jack Niclaus who never grounded his putter, just in case the ball moved he would not be deemed to have caused it.

[leftylucas]

That is what I thought as well. I played in the Executive Golf Championship and in the final round I found myself in this exact position but did not ground my putter for exactly the reason stated above. It was very tense and not easy to hover close to the ground and make a smooth stroke.

[jvincent]

So if I hover the putter and the balls moves how the heck is that considered to haved moved the ball?? The club never touches the ground. Proximity does not make something move. That cannot be right. If I hover the club 3 feet from the ball and it moves am I deemed to have made it move? I dont get it.

I think we might have gotten crossed here with simultaneous posts.

In your original scenario, you haven't moved the ball. It moved by itself. The same way as if you hit your shot to the green, it stopped for a second, and then rolled down a hill.

That is why you are supposed to play it from where it came to rest.

If you had caused it to move then you would have replaced it, with a one stroke penalty.

[leftylucas]

OK, now I get it, I agree with you now. So, no penalty if I am not deemed to have moved the ball and play it where it ends up and hovering the putter is not addressing the ball.

Thanks guys.

[BC MIST]

Assuming you have not committed a serious breach by playing from the wrong place then you are subject to a two stroke penalty.

If the ball rolled away from the hole and was then replaced at the original place of rest, then a serious breach could possibly have occurred. If a 5' putt became a 3' putt, the golfer gained a significant advantage, but if a 50' putt became a 48' putt, then he gained no significant advantage. Without correcting a serious breach, then disqualification is the consequence.

[leftylucas]

What if the ball is above the hole and rolls toward the hole and your 15' putt is now a 6' putt and you have not addressed it, must you play it from where it stops or from where it first started?

[Kilroy]

Then you now have a 6' putt. No different than if it rolled down the hill as you walked to the green, as long as you never addressed the ball which is to take your stance and sole the club behind the ball.

[leftylucas]

Sweet except with my luck the ball would always roll away from the hole!

[Biffster26]

so what happens if a 6 inch putt is replaced and subsequently rolls into the hole without addressing it. Do I add a stroke? Penalty or is it considered holed?

[jvincent]

It is considered holed.

[Kilroy]

20-3d/1 Placed Ball Rolls into Hole

Q. A replaces his ball on the putting green three feet from the hole. As he is about to address the ball, it rolls into the hole. Should the ball be replaced or is A deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke?

A. The answer depends on whether the ball, when replaced, came to rest on the spot on which it was placed before it started rolling. If it did, A is deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke. If not, A is required to replace the ball (Rule 20-3d). However, if the ball had been overhanging the hole when it was lifted, the provisions of Rule 16-2 would override those of Rule 20-3d.

[leftylucas]

What about in match play? Player A hits a putt, and the ball comes to rest. He moves up the green and stands near the ball (without marking it) and grounds his putter away from the line of putting 6" away from the ball and the ball moves? Is there a penalty? What should he do?

[jvincent]

The answer depends on whether the player is deemed to have caused the ball to move.

If he's just standing there with his putter on the ground and has not addressed the ball I'm pretty sure all the rules officials would agree he did not cause the ball to move. In that he plays it from where it comes to rest and there is no penalty.

[leftylucas]

He was not addressing the ball, he was setting a practice swing beside the ball

[BC MIST]

20-3d/1 Placed Ball Rolls into Hole

Q. A replaces his ball on the putting green three feet from the hole. As he is about to address the ball, it rolls into the hole. Should the ball be replaced or is A deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke?

A. The answer depends on whether the ball, when replaced, came to rest on the spot on which it was placed before it started rolling. If it did, A is deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke. If not, A is required to replace the ball (Rule 20-3d). However, if the ball had been overhanging the hole when it was lifted, the provisions of Rule 16-2 would override those of Rule 20-3d.

How long does the ball have to be stationary to be considered AT REST?

This question has been raised on the Leith Society previously and the consensus among the rules officials there is 3 to 4 seconds.

[jvincent]

He was not addressing the ball, he was setting a practice swing beside the ball

This is one of those "it depends" situations. If he was close enough to the ball that his practice stroke might have caused it to move, then he would likely be assessed a penalty.

It would be a judgment call by the officials.

[mpare]

My head hurts.

[jvincent]

My head hurts.

There's a cure for that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanation

or if the case is more severe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine